Claymore Chapter 80

[Sleepy Speculator]

Savannah you forgot...

The Wall Of Post War fun winds down for the night with Savannah's synoptical run down of the entire last two pages posters and their respective pov...

[Savannah]

lol guess ure right xD
And what is the Clarice Jump theorie? Hmm... she jumping round the roofs or what? that jumping scene in the manga where she fought against blood red Agasa?

[tenken627]

Haha

If you can't beat them, join them.

And if you think these are walls of texts, you should go back to last year when most of us weren't even on this board. Now those are walls of texts, with like a minimum of 1000 words each post.

Besides, it's much more interesting to talk and theorize about stuff like Claymore power and potential, because there are so many different ways you could look at it, and everyone has their own unique view.

It makes these middle weeks between chapters more fun at least.

And it sure beats reading the 800th post of Raki being a Claymore.

[shschesschamp]

I wonder how long this thread would be if Yagi would publish his chapters in a shorter time span? Someone here that's a friend of Yagi needs to tell him to publish at least 2 chapters a month cause it's killing us.

[Savannah]

I've got no way of contact, nor do I know how I could help him. I can't draw well, and I only speak English and German xD

[chibamonster]

Oh, I was here for some of the millennial day of posting wars . That was when there was only the Japanese Manga thread (may it rest in peace) for all the discussions that take place in the manga... The posts themselves were often unreadable unless you were on the recieving end. The hard part for me is that with a wall of text it is hard to know what the discussion is about because there are so many points agreed and disagreed upon all at once. Maybe some people can separate it all out in their mind and are great multitaskers but I have difficulty with carrying on dozens of mini discussion/arguments in a single post.

Claymore is really the only manga that I look at this closely because of how consistent the world is. While we may not have much information about things the info that we do have is usually pointing towards something. Claymore has themes that build on top of one another. Like the youki pills. We had seen them multiple times in varried situations before they saved the ghosts from Pieta. So even though it was a surprise that 1/2 a pill's effects were so different than a whole pill it made complete sense. The pills were then used again recently with Audrey's interrogation and Clarice/Miata's Galatea hunting trip.

In Claymore themes appear multiple times in different ways and the information usually builds towards something. For instance the Claymores are known by their swords, they use their swords as chairs, the sword carries their symbol and black card, the sword is used as a grave marker, the sword is much more effective than normal swords as seen in Rabona, Teresa cleaned off the blood of her sword by splattering it on villiagers, the sword is used in varying and different techniques as first seen with Irene then by many other claymores, the sword is the life of a claymore as Deneve said, and now we learn that the swords are unbreakable for an entirely new reason that makes sense.

So even though it can be a surprise when new information comes out it is consistent with what has happened before as most themes in Claymore seem to be building up and leading to greater importance in the story. I think the same can be said about themes like cloaked youki, youki manipulation, adult child guardian relationships, awakening (including partial awakening and soul links which crosses over with manipulation), reoccurring and developing characters, and even now reoccurring locations. So while we do not have all the information to know why the claymore world is the way it is I think we have a much better base to start from than many other series because things that will appear in the future will often be a development of a theme we have seen in the past. At least that is how I see it .

[yezhanquan]

The sensei is happy with the pace, so we, the poor fans, have to wait.

[Savannah]

@chiba: Honestly, it's a miracle that this forum not only survived, but actually got bigger xD
Does that Japanese Manga thread still exist out there? Maybe I'll have alot of free time soon.
While I have no problem reading myriad posts each with many diffenrent themas in it, i rly have a problem to write one and still sort it out in my mind. I always loose myself in what I'm writing and forget the half of the not so important stuff on the way. xD In the end, it means that I can follow such posts without problems, but if I want to answer, only a tenth of what I want to say is written... lol

[chibamonster]

Savannah: this is the old Japanese Manga thread http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=46916. This was before each new chapter got its own new thread so the Japanese manga thread is pretty dead now a days. Sometimes it is used to talk about something someone wants to bring up that they do not want to get drowned out in the faster paced monthly thread.

A lot of the discussions and arguments from that monsterous thread do not make as much sense now that we have new information. I mean we had 5 months of waiting to know who was in Rabona that Clarice and Miata were hunting. We did not even know it was Rabona. Someone said it could be Rabona as a theory, which was cool. So a lot of those theories have been answered while some rage on to this day. Teresa vs. Priscilla will be a hot bed until we get more info .

[Savannah]

Lol yeah, looks like it. Anyway I guess I'll ahve some fun ty

[shschesschamp]

the chapter 78 thread is 120-130 pages long and chapter 80 has been out 2 weeks it's at 65 pages let's see if we can break the record and make this the longest chapter thread

[tenken627]

Originally Posted by shschesschamp

the chapter 78 thread is 120-130 pages long and chapter 80 has been out 2 weeks it's at 65 pages let's see if we can break the record and make this the longest chapter thread

Well Chapter 78 was used for two months - March + April, because that was when there was a month long break in between chapters.

But, it was still massive by the time April started, I think 2,000 posts for the month of March alone.

Hmmm, the Chapter 80 thread is getting pretty big too.

[Ancient Soul]

Another post (maybe we will make a record next chapter if something amazing will happen - we should start to prepare our posts by now)...(just joking)...in views C80 (three weeks and a half) is near the C78 (since March)...so our addiction is growing...(it seem that Raki triggered more interest than the DODs in the last chapter!Amazing!)...

About the Raki's scar :

So Raki's scar was a subject of discussion (a few days ago).No one talk about Galk's scar.Well...

1. is there;
2. don't prove anything (if he is human\claymore)
3. used to make sure (for Clare\viewers) that he is Raki;
4. we still don't know how he get her;
5. Galk'scar beat Raki's scar anytime in a contest;

About claymore ranks :

It seem that this generation has the greater casualty rate of all generation.So no wonder
that the top ten are so weak (we don't know if Audrey and Rachel were the first 3&5 after Pieta).Audrey have to work with Rachel in missions (AB hunts) were Galatea (former nr 3) or Rafaela (former nr 5) will have dealt without problems alone so good chances that their were not the first 3 & 5 after Pieta.After 7 years i would expect them to be stronger or at last with more experience.Maybe they are only for 3-4 years in business rather than 7 years.

From the beginning (of the series) The ORG seem to like nr. 47.Only 47 claymores allowed at a time and sometimes even fewer.Either this is the max number they can control with ease (with their handlers\island size) either he has a symbolic meaning.People dies all the time.Youmas attack villages.So if The ORG will want 200 warriors in a year i don't see any problem to obtain them (but i think they lack manpower trainers\handlers in order to control them).By raising the number of subjects increase the chance to obtain stronger warriors.If right now the only ones who impress us a bit are Audrey & Miata (2/47), then with luck there will be (6-10/200 out of POST-TEST girls).Also the ORG can start buing girls directly from parents (like Alicia & Beth) if they are short in supplies.

Right now they have more fillers than usual because of the high casualty rate rather than lacking test subjects.

About Alicia & Beth :

The ORG is well aware about Alicia weakness : Beth.I'm sure they already take precautions in order to minimise it.

Maybe :

1. training a special claymore team (without numbers\maybe girls from mainland!) in order to protect Beth!
2. fusion with Alicia's Body.
3. the range used for soul-link has increased (with more training during the time skip).
4. Beth can move freely now even with soul-link (like Galatea while reading\manipulating).

We don't know for sure if what Galatea saw seven years ago was the final awakened form of Alicia (i mean 100% yoki release by Alicia).I very doubt that she used all her power.Alicia seem to know the power he need in order to destroy an enemy (remember is evaluation about Riful).So i think he used enough power to take them down, nothing more.A talk between Miria & Galatea will be welcomed in this matter.

More likely to see half-awakened Clare vs half-awakened Alicia than fully awakened Clare vs fully awakened Alicia.Remember that all the Ghosts are easy to read (if they release their yoki), but Clare is different.Alicia will analyze all the Ghosts find that she and Beth at 60-80% yoki release will defeat them and find out during the battle that Clare is "special".

About the future :

I think that Galatea & Rabona Ark is over.The only one left after the skip to show up are :
Dauf, Rafaela, Isley and Priscilla.

Right now Clare know that Raki left for West.
Raki is in the South.
Miria want to spy\attack the ORG in the East.
Riful is busy in the North.

If Clare will go West, good chances to meet with Dauf and Riful's Army (most likely she got some AB in the last seven years) and maybe Rafaela.(Will be amazing to see : Rafaela IN CHARGE of Riful's Army over Dauf!).

Maybe Riful proposed Rafaela to become her new "older sister" (Riful is quite smart at mind tricks and Rafaeala was vulnerable at that point)...she was in the north just to make sure that Rafeala will not hug her to death...

[evil_kenshin]

to add to the scar we've seen humans (Raki & Galk) , Half yoma (Raphela, Galatea) & Awakened beings (one of the three male AB's that were the first to attack Pieta had a scar down his face) have scars. The whole scar thing is irrelevant.

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator

@Cyclone this wall of post response reminds me of when i upset the Miria/Galatea/Teresa fan club for whatever particular hole i happen to pick at...

Ah well, at least there's something to talk about.

Anyhow to get back on subject, you're point about Mozart or whatever genius is recognised is a subjectively loaded question. If i went back in time and eradictaed Mozart and as a result the wonderful and unknown works of John Smith became famous, you'd be saying to me... bring me twenty people with the talent of John Smith... i bet you can't, at which point if i went' back in time again and eradicated John Smith only to have a random Austrian composer by the name of Wolfgang Schmidt or some such receive all praise, you'd say 'i challenge you to bring me...' and so on till i'd eradicated 20 wonderful composers thus arguably proving my point. It's not like talented and composed works would 'disappear' from human history.

Or to put it another way, your'e assumption on what makes talent is conceited for you could say that no one who climbs Everest would ever be as great as Edmund Hillary, or that the many physicists working on the incredible string theory etc. Are subpar compared to Isaac Newton... I'm sorry it's just the logic don't make sense

premise A) that i bring you a person of equivalent skill or talent as someone who was 'subjectively' chosen as the best, through the process of popular recognition

premise B) that no one could ever have according to you the same talent or skill as the 'best of the best' (subjectively defined again, e.g. i happen to think Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings is the most moving classical piece as compared to much of Mozart's stuff)

therefore A) can not equal B)... yet you ask me to bring you 20 of such individuals full well knowing that the criteria for the named individuals was subjective as hell.

The sports analogy of Tenken i think rather backs up my point, specifically because if Micheal Jordan wasn't showboating some other talented/famous basketball player would... and likely do nike adverts and trying to get into acting too... It's not like compared to Micheal Jordan they'd be worse players either...

*sigh*
So, by your logic, with a time machine and a fairly sizable genocide, I could become the recognized world wide as the greatest composer ever to have lived (please note: I have no musical talent what-so-ever)? I think music would die before I got any such acclaim.

There are 2 ridiculous parts to your argument:

1) You seem to think that the acclaim of others is what defines 'the best'. To over-simplify, if enough people claim that a Trabant is the world's best car, then it simply is the best car ever made, and the Bugatti Veyron be damned. In my books, quality is not subject to popular opinion or hype - it's a function of the object itself. Granted, some of the examples I suggested are subjective, but your opinion of the validity of some of my examples does not change the argument itself. The reason I choose mostly people from more than 100 years ago is the "hype" factor has mostly died out over time with them, and they are judged by their accomplishments, not self promotion or marketing.

and

2) You seem to think that, given 2 items of various qualities - say A and B - that given the absence of the higher quality item A, that item B becomes the same quality as item A. This is absurd. Granted, given an absence of A, then B is indeed the best you got, but that doesn't make B 'good'. When we talk about someone like Newton, we think of advances in optics, theory of gravity, laws of motion, inventions of calculus, among other things. Please, if you can find the 20 modern day scientists that can each produce 4 or more such revolutionary and important innovations, I'm all ears. I will grant you that the arts and sciences are a little subjective in that regard though, so the sports examples are a little more valid. Examples such as:

Wayne Gretzky (NHL hockey) - with 2857 career regular season points, he dominates Mark Messier who is in second with 1887. He's the all time goal scoring leader, etc etc.

Mark Spitz (swimmer) - 7 gold medals in a single olympics - all achieved in world record times.

Ingemar Stenmark (downhill skiier) - with 86 career wins, he has a sizable lead over second place Hermann Maier's 56. Quite impressive considering he only skied the technical events.

Similarly, Michael Jordan's achievements are not defined by how many Nike commercials he's done, but by leading the Bulls to their 6 championships and his wide selection of NBA records (highest career scoring average, most scoring titles, etc).

So, yes, if you kill off all the geniouses, then there will still be a 'best' by definition, but all that will be left is mediocrity and no one will care. Also just because these people are the best there ever has been, doesn't mean that they are the best that ever will be, either. When/if someone better comes along, the bar to be the best will be raised yet again.

So getting back to Claymore, I shall once again grant that Audrey is the current Organization's #3, and by virtue of being the 3rd most powerful, (give or take a Miata) she deserves the spot. This does not make her on par with #3s of the past however, and speaks of the sad state of the organization when you consider past number 3's like Irene, Galatea or Duff.

And to continue demolishing your'e argument, the process of killing off claymores isn't 'natural selection' for two reasons, first what you're thinking of is more akin to 'artificial selection' and secondly it's more in line with the concept of 'fitness' due to the inability (we assume) for claymores to reproduce... which was the whole point about a yoma hybrids being yoma hybids...

Whether it's natural selection as defined by Darwin or not, I really don't care. Simple fact is Claymores with skill are harder to kill of off than poor ones. Seems most of the top Claymores have all been around for a while - Raphaela being most notable.

Keep trying.

*waits for the inevitable explosion*

Without noticing, have I become a ogre or something (like Ophelia)?

[Sleepy Speculator]

<sighs> i was trying to show the 'subjective' nature of your argument, there is very little 'objective' definition of who is best with regards to quality and talent when it comes down to people, and you seem to think that given an absence of certain people that everything else would become and remain an uninteresting mediocreness...

- The point of my logic with the time machine is that the person you've decided as the best was subjective to the conditions, and that you challenged me to provide an A) = B) when in the next post you say (seemingly without consideration) A) will never = B) thus making my argument a pointless and rhetorical waste of time.

- As with definitions of the best in any of it's formats i invite you to do so 'objectively' - http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=best

- And so to your comparison between a Trabant and a Bugatti... (do i have to point out that your concept of what a better car here is coloured...) What use would a post war East German have for a low cut sports car, that could easily bog down on poor conditioned roads, or over consume fuel due to it's higher torque, or have difficulty getting repaired due to electronic and inbuilt components... etc.

You say quality is a function of the object itself, yet make a comparison based solely on 'popular opinion' and 'hype'. Given rough conditions, i'd take the trabant over the Bugatti, and i bet i could last longer, thus filling it's utility and arguably being a better car.

(Now because this has got rather off track i'll circle this back to the claymore argument, the org isn't trying to create overly powerful claymores, they are trying to make controllable AB's... The claymores that survive are the fittest for a given trait, but 'need' experience and training to augment their ability (which if it's random is the same as any other claymore coming through graduation) Arbitrarily increasing the attrition rates, isn't selectively decreasing or increasing quality it's an attempt to increase the ratio of claymores with 'one' specific trait, the strong die with the weak if they lack this trait... e.g. i'm brought to mind the disaster of the Indianapolis where pretty much 900 men made it to the water, and then spent 4-5 days variously drowning, getting eaten by sharks, dying of dehydration, dying from shock/injury, getting coated in oil, and various other problems. It's not like the survivors had a higher quality overall, they merely may have had a few selectable 'traits' that allowed them to survive where others died, irrespective of things like strength.. e.g. the ability to swim, the luck not to get eaten by sharks, tolerance to dehydration etc.)

Okay to respond to the criticism regarding a comparison between a person A and an person B of various qualities, there is the 'huge' problem of respective values you've gone and placed on for example again 'Newton', i can't remember the names but good examples are named by the dozens of just such individuals in Bill Bryson's 'A Short History Of Nearly Everything' (Which names the many, many respective scientists who were busy doing various things through the age of the 'gentleman' scholars etc. With the arts it becomes even more problematic, because scholars in the same fields produce similar works, and to parallel it if Edmund Hillary didn't make it to the top of Everest first some other climber sure as hell would've.

Onto your sports analogies... well i would love to answer them one by one, but not being sporty i have never heard of any of them... But i do get what your'e saying but, i think that if they didn't dominate someone else would have the fortune to dominate. And putting two such people with 'similar yet exclusive experiences' together is the only way to tell. Audrey lacks experience, which is what Galatea and Irene had...

Skilled claymores are as easy to kill off as unskilled trainees, you just send them on missions which don't suit them, or that you know will end in their death. Hell Pieta had 3 single digits, 5 partially awakened claymores, at least 2 sensor types etc. Rapheala, is damn lucky Rubul didn't use her injured time to chop her head off, i mean it's not like he fears her... he can handle a claymore in one hand no problem, he mentioned to Clare the unscrupulous nature of getting people 'anytime' etc. It seems to me he wanted her for something, rather than killing her, which i'd guess is what the rest of the org wanted.

Yeah your'e an ogre all right, look you even imagine hitting me with a hammer...

@Savannah, i'm just joking around with the Clarice jump thing, just as people say Yuma can punch v.good.

[Savannah]

@Sleepy: Ah okay^^

Anyway, I've never seen so much brackets in 2 lines as in Ancient Soul's first and second lines xD

It's really interesting, how the discussion moved from topic Claymore to topic East Germany and Cars.

[NobodyMan]

Well, There seems to be alot of commotion going on around here . I guess I'll try to change the subject for now.

About the DoD's, so far of what we've seen of them, they all look the same, work in groups, and may or may not be as strong as an AB. Since Yagi seems to like having all kinds of crazy designs for his monsters, here's my theory, which will use bleach as a comparison:

-The DoDs we've seen so far are like the Gillians of the Menos Grande in Bleach, as in they are the weakest among the DoD's, have the same appearence, and have no individual personality.

-There are DoDs out there that are like the Adjuchas in Bleach, having individual personalities, stronger, and have varying appearences.

-There aren't any DoDs that can be compared to the Vasto Lords in Bleach, but there are a select few who are a bit stronger than the adjuchas level ones. these DoDs may not be at the same level of power of the Abyssal Ones, but do come close to that level.

That's all I have for now, feel free to pick my theory apart as you see fit.

[Enara]

o,k I'm lost

[Lich_king]

Originally Posted by shschesschamp

I wonder how long this thread would be if Yagi would publish his chapters in a shorter time span? Someone here that's a friend of Yagi needs to tell him to publish at least 2 chapters a month cause it's killing us.

I totally agree.