(L) Kenpufer (Kämpfer)

[OkamiNoKaze]

Wow, 10 was another crazy episode, nice to see Mikoto's feelings come out. Poor Natsuru, "They're like marshmellows!!" made me laugh. I hope there's a second series/season to this show, it's fun. Though with current revelations in the story, opening and endings don't fit so well any more.

[Mentar]

There were some interesting character discussion opinions I wanted to comment on.

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

This is a NOT new archetype. We have seen this archetype in the past. The so called 'classic tsundere's ' had it - go back to 80's and you will see somewhat similar characters Madoka from Kimagure Orange Road or Hayase from Macross, they had less exposed sexuality and bit less bold due to love triangle's but you can see a lot of similarities between the classic tsundere's and this 'new' Hitagi archetype.

I have to disagree here. In my opinion, Shizuku is no tsundere AT ALL. Probably _the_ key element of a tsundere is a strong discrepancy between what a character feels, says and does, leading to alot of inner tension. In particular, a development of initially tsuntsun (cold/mean) behavior which later turns into deredere (warm/kind) one. Also, tsunderes are generally susceptible to displays of suppressed emotion like heavy blushing and occasional outbursts of violence.

Shizuku doesn't fill this bill at all. She is very much at ease with her emotions, and very honestly and openly deals with them in the few scenes when she feels them to be out of synch (e.g. her self-reflection on feeling jealous in ep7 or a potentially missed chance in ep10). Also, she is completely in control of her behavior. And except for a gradual development from toyfriend to boyfriend, there are no major jumps from tsun to dere.

Mind you, I do see certain resemblances between Lisa Hayes/Madoka and Shizuku, in particular the strong personalities and their ability to succeed in what they start, I see several big differences which make Shizuku particularly appealing to me, and which justify calling her an example of a new archetype. More about that later.

Sheryl from Macross F also is pretty similar to this. So I would not consider this a new archetype - just retro archetype with added some contemporary traits (clearly expressed sexiness and even less hesitation).

Again, a certain resemblance yes, but I don't think I'd call them similar. Both are professional at what they're doing, but Sheryl is deeply riddled with self-doubts which show when she overcompensates her bossiness in dealing with others. Sheryl also has major problems dealing with her issues. Shizuku's confidence is more rooted and solid, and she tackles her (fewer) issues head-on by herself. So, one could argue that Sheryl is more "down-to-earth" realistic and rounded, but she's less amusing and a bit more exasperating and needy at times.

No, there are two characters which I'd consider relatively close to Shizuku: Shinra from "They Are My Noble Masters" and naturally Senjogahara from Bakemonogatari. The defining quality is their playfulness and teasing disposition. The fact that this extends to sexiness doesn't hurt at all, but I wouldn't even say that this is "it". It's the mindset of expressing their minds and their feelings very openly and confidently (or "aggressively" if you prefer that).

Why do I consider this so very refreshing? Because as a lover of the tsundere template, I get burned (and irritated) again and again by their inability to properly act on their feelings. This leads to tension and drama which is usually good... but from time to time it's nice to have a girl just SAY what it feels and wants and ACT on it. The main difference between Senjogahara and Shizuku is Araragi: He's receptive and happy. Natsuru is a much harder nut to crack ... but both ACT decisively. And after the constant hesitation of the tsunderes, this is such a wonderful break.

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

As to the story, I'll admit I may have been a tad harsh on Shizuku earlier on, just a tad. Though as I saw someone say in this thread, there was such an uneven direction floating in this we could almost call it author/screenwriter favoritism. Mikoto and Akane were almost pulled by a cosmic force to completely deter any attention to matters that do not focus on Natsuru, even when the tension is so thick. Those two aren't stupid, but it makes them look overly shallow, which I do not think they are.

Well, they're simply not at all part of the backstory, and they fall short in the romance battle. I'd say that this is the authors' point: If you want to get ahead, work for it. Don't sit around and pout in "me too" style.

Truly, it seems they've been put off as background noise, though, if you're a Shizuku fan you most likely don't mind. Especially here, where the negative traits of the other girls are enhanced, and the positive traits of one girl are increased. If you see your favorite character happens to be progressing so favorably, you tend to just roll with it, no matter how the other characters are portrayed, or that you see them as a mere background noise/annoyances. I'd call it bad character development/design.

Unbalanced, maybe. Bad it ain't. I'd call it frustrated fanboyism. It wouldn't be unrealistic either: One girl acts determinedly and aggressively on both fronts. The others fall short. It's a strange misconception of harems that all girls have to be treated equally before the resolution. Why would that be so? It's different in RL either.

Anyway, if you guys come up with female leads showing the following characterization, please by all means give me examples and hints. I'd gladly admit that the Shizuku template was already used well in the past - but I can't think of many examples at all:

1) Capable and confident, in a cool/calm way
2) Playful/flirtatious
3) Open and honest about their feelings, and acting on them
4) Overall kind disposition (devious streaks are welcome though)

[HashiriyaR32]

If they're want to chain another Gundam reference into the show, maybe during the next episode, someone could try naming the katana in a certain person's hand (not Mikoto) "Gerbera Straight".

[Kuroshinobu]

I really like the Shizuku x Natsuru pairing for some reason...
She reminds me of a certain purple haired women from Bakemonogatari.

[Altima of the Gates]

Unbalanced, maybe. Bad it ain't. I'd call it frustrated fanboyism. It wouldn't be unrealistic either: One girl acts determinedly and aggressively on both fronts. The others fall short. It's a strange misconception of harems that all girls have to be treated equally before the resolution. Why would that be so? It's different in RL either.

Anyway, if you guys come up with female leads showing the following characterization, please by all means give me examples and hints. I'd gladly admit that the Shizuku template was already used well in the past - but I can't think of many examples at all:

1) Capable and confident, in a cool/calm way
2) Playful/flirtatious
3) Open and honest about their feelings, and acting on them
4) Overall kind disposition (devious streaks are welcome though)

Ahem. I'll agree that being honest and up front is admirable, but since when does that make the best character? Sorry Mentar, but I'm a bit angry at that kind of sentiment. To be quite honest, its like you're saying someone who is unsure about themselves should be left out in the cold. Since when had it been so wrong to be indecisive, I mean seriously, look at the time frame here. In Shizuru's case, the mummy hunter eventually became the mummy before she knew it through her playful actions. She got to eat some of the cake without the cake being hers.

Treated equally, no. Romantic feelings in these situations are hardly equal, but these are the telling of stories, so why even include other characters not pertaining to the immediate romantic chemistry? If you're going to create characters with names, faces, and feelings, make them people, not extras. That's what I'm saying. But anyway, if you're happy, that's great.

Your message seems to me that if you want someone bad enough, just do whatever, without their consent and to hell with the consequences. You may get lucky. Pfft. In fact, I don't think Shizuku perfectly embodies everything you've put on that list as well as you seem to think. It rather seems like things just snapped into place to fit that train of thought. But since she pushes your kink buttons so hard, what can I say? *shrug*

As for examples of that character archetype, both male and female:

Kazuma from Kaze no Stigma
Nishino Tsukasa from Ichigo 100%

I see several big differences which make Shizuku particularly appealing to me, and which justify calling her an example of a new archetype. More about that later.

Shinra from "They Are My Noble Masters" and naturally Senjogahara from Bakemonogatari. The defining quality is their playfulness and teasing disposition. The fact that this extends to sexiness doesn't hurt at all, but I wouldn't even say that this is "it". It's the mindset of expressing their minds and their feelings very openly and confidently (or "aggressively" if you prefer that).

Lack of tact? Or the inability to care/notice what other people want if their own personal desires get too much to bear?

"By gum I'll get 'em kicking and screaming I will! And make 'em like it!"

Good for comedy, bad for romance (for my taste) unless you're some kind of masochist.

And before you hang me for that, in this recent episode she ran under some rather baffling contradictions, since she's always been getting her taste of the snack, for her to say she'd rather have him going after her baffled me. OF COURSE we like it when the one we love reciprocates that love. But seriously, come on, she'll just go ahead and rape him eventually. Its rather unconvincing to me that she's projecting this illusion that its anything but her voicing the fact she'd like it better if he openly admitted her feelings for him. She just gets what she wants and there are no real repercussions for her actions, when I would see other characters get the cold, cold shoulder for just doing what they wanted. *Sigh* Though as bitter as I might seem, I don't really hate her, I did in fact like Shinra from TAMNM.

[Nemesis]

^
*Claps**Sheds tears of joy*

You have managed to say why i think Shizuku isn't good.
And you realised this was a story, not a Shizuku fest.

Guess i'm not alone.

Just because Shizuku is a refreshing character archetype in this story and appeals to many audiences,she does not save it from its flaws.

[KaneDragon]

So, Sakura goes out of character and drags Natsuru away and... they just let her? It takes them that long to mount a search, and the only idea that comes up is "they might have been attacked by White Kampfer"? I thought Shizuku was on the ball about that... was I wrong?


Yes, PORN!


Damn he's smooth.


Just great. Super evil, mind control, and a lesbian harem. It's just such an abrupt chance in character. I keep waiting for the punchline, but instead I just get more and more cheese.


And just what good is that remark going to do you, Miss Evil Overlord?

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Good for comedy, bad for romance (for my taste) unless you're some kind of masochist.

And before you hang me for that, in this recent episode she ran under some rather baffling contradictions, since she's always been getting her taste of the snack, for her to say she'd rather have him going after her baffled me. OF COURSE we like it when the one we love reciprocates that love. But seriously, come on, she'll just go ahead and rape him eventually. Its rather unconvincing to me that she's projecting this illusion that its anything but her voicing the fact she'd like it better if he openly admitted her feelings for him. She just gets what she wants and there are no real repercussions for her actions, when I would see other characters get the cold, cold shoulder for just doing what they wanted. *Sigh* Though as bitter as I might seem, I don't really hate her, I did in fact like Shinra from TAMNM.

Look it's not really a contradiction at all. You initially have this character, boy-natsuru, he's what you call the lucky idiot or the blind bishoujo master, his initial lack of interest in her peaked her interest in him. Then you add your rather bland and poorly animated fight scenes, which really is just the authors gimmick for you to look away. Now this intriguing dunce has really done it, he's spurred all her advances and infact is so infatuated/crush stricken with her prime suspect in this shounen mess that this brings them even closer. Even though she and dunce boy/girl are both niavette's she still thinks that this person is intriuging because intially we consider her to be one of the ojousama archetype.

Instead it's revealed that she isn't really into her own looks and in fact her real aloofness is to stop herself from getting hurt by the plotting of said moderators/evil eyed sakura. In fact she does like natsuru probably because of his niave, I don't want to kill people attitude which did save her from a pyscho akane. Here sakura/shizuku are infact quite similar, their willing to do what it takes to get with the person they like, although sakura is willing to lie so this establishes the moral guides of their characters.

The whole point is that she in fact does like natsuru because she possibly thinks that he could like her for not just her beauty, and he's a good guy. Let's not forget that she is a girl, and that she does want to be with Natsuru in more than just oh hey kaede asked you to fuck me so i'll do it way, and more like hey i really like you and you wanna do it so i'm down with that kinda thing. This is hinted at during the whole Ima rape you scene, when she talks about her firsts. Very much like senjougahara she's a girl who wants to be loved. her attempts earlier where more to plant seeds for captain dunce to notice her.

[Tempest35]

Hnnn, seems while Mentar is glorifying Shizuku, Altima and Adr are not happy at the lack of a story behind the other characters, thus weaking the overall story, correct? seems to be the core of the argument and Shizuku is the focal point of it.

One can say that the others are not being treated fairly by the author but then again, in RL, we aren't treated fairly either and there's no 'author' to convinently complain to. Even if one pursues a guy/girl that they like, doesn't mean they'll always end up with them. Shizuku's not being as aggressive as she is just to be mean to the other girls - she rather likes them as friends (they're interesting) but she only got involved with them because of Natsuru so she doesn't have any obligation to keep the playing field 'fair' for the others. If she, Akane, and Mikoto were friends before they met Natsuru, then yeah there would be something akin to betrayal to hold her back.

As for her personality, she seems that she's been allowed to get her way throughout life and she's learned that almost no one refuses her because of her pedigree, attitude, and her beauty. She doesn't get flustered like the other girls because she's kept her emotions on lock. It seems that she used to be an ice queen but she's voluntarily breaking that down to go with a guy who doesn't chase after her at all. Maybe she likes the idea of being in control of a younger man in a relationship.

[Altima of the Gates]

The whole point is that she in fact does like natsuru because she possibly thinks that he could like her for not just her beauty, and he's a good guy. Let's not forget that she is a girl, and that she does want to be with Natsuru in more than just oh hey kaede asked you to fuck me so i'll do it way, and more like hey i really like you and you wanna do it so i'm down with that kinda thing. This is hinted at during the whole Ima rape you scene, when she talks about her firsts. Very much like senjougahara she's a girl who wants to be loved. her attempts earlier where more to plant seeds for captain dunce to notice her.

And? Its great for her that she found love, and if you read what I wrote before that I acknowledged that she had opened up to a new set of feelings. "The mummy hunter became the mummy." But it still seems so strange to me. With the way she worded her experience with guys, I didn't get that she wanted guys to want her for her beauty. I never saw that. It just looked like that she preferred the chase to the conquest, and took any chance to gt a piece. You could even say its part of her pride that she would even say she'd "rather him be doing the chasing."(Heh. Isn't that rather cliche?) It feels to me like a contradiction. All those times of taking up the opportunity and she never gets called on it and its brushed off as comical. Its annoying.

I'll say it again, do you really find it okay to just have someone do things against your will or without your consent? That's what she does, a lot. Lots of other character I would hear they being called a slut for this, or clingy. Frankly, that was what got on my nerves, nobody cites her lack of tact at all. Seriously, if I kiss someone in their sleep, or just on the spot and I don't know them, I'd expect someone to slap me. I wouldn't just do that, and I appreciate people who are affectionate, and I myself am an affectionate person.

There is little you could do that would change my mind here. Sorry.

@Tempest35:

As for her personality, she seems that she's been allowed to get her way throughout life and she's learned that almost no one refuses her because of her pedigree, attitude, and her beauty. She doesn't get flustered like the other girls because she's kept her emotions on lock.

A fair argument, except it isn't because her emotions are in check. Look at what you wrote there. No one has refused her. Look at how often she snaps her fingers and things happen or she just makes them happen. Why would she need to fear? She knows that this dense brick of a guy wouldn't tell her, "No way, I can't beleive you did that." Sure she doesn't get what she ultimately wants (his heart) but she's taking anything that she can get along the way, whether he consents or not. It just seems rather cold that when we get to comparing the girls, we get responses that amount to faulting the rest for not just raping him on the spot. Hell, Akane went and asked him out, and Mikoto has already basically showed her feelings for him, many times. Its rather dubious to say that Shizuru is superior in both combative (she is, if only as a plot device) and romantic situations. She just merely can rape him with no consequences it seems, so I look at this situation with a 'lol wut' stance.

Its less about me knowing that fictional stories have the hierarchy of main character/hero/heroine/ ---->supporting characters, and more about my feelings on the show's progression as well as my thoughts on Shizuku.

[Key Board]

Shizuku gets more attention because Mikoto is a decoration and Akane is a gag character.
and Sakura being the main heroine (and final boss) has singled her out as rival.

Was this intentional? maybe, maybe not
Fiction is often unfair. There are always characters that are meant to be flat and caricatures. There is always a hierarchy.

Sometimes Bobba Fett really was meant to be that poor schmuck side character who was unceremoniously killed off by Luke Skywalker, despite how the EU wants to portray him otherwise.

[technomo12]

god i do hope it is not the end and i hope if ther will be a season 2 i hope it airs on 2010

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Tempest35

Hnnn, seems while Mentar is glorifying Shizuku, Altima and Adr are not happy at the lack of a story behind the other characters, thus weaking the overall story, correct? seems to be the core of the argument and Shizuku is the focal point of it.

Its the structure of the story that I'm not happy with, I'm past caring about any of the characters.

See, thing is, why do we have to be Shizuku fans just to enjoy this work?Or better, why all the focus on the harem aspects?Did we already forget there was a story going on?


Much of the criticism of this story i see people giving it out there,is actually all valid.
My problem is that this thing has misrepresented itself.If it wanted to be about all of the fluffy aspects, it should be that way and represent itself as such.
Or, i should not had been drawn to this story at all.

[Nosauz]

again, your making this personal when in fact it isn't. I'm refering to the characters, and what they actually do. And really the whole convo in the almost rape scene again alludes to the fact that Shizuku does want natsuru for more than her conquest. Conquest is through humiliation, degradation and control over another, but when natsuru was leading she was submissive, clearly not the mindset of someone wanting to notch one on the bedpost.

[vio5555]

Originally Posted by Adr 00

Its the structure of the story that I'm not happy with, I'm past caring about any of the characters.

See, thing is, why do we have to be Shizuku fans just to enjoy this work?Or better, why all the focus on the harem aspects?Did we already forget there was a story going on?

Much of the criticism of this story i see people giving it out there,is actually all valid.
My problem is that this thing has misrepresented itself.If it wanted to be about all of the fluffy aspects, it should be that way and represent itself as such.
Or, i should not had been drawn to this story at all.

That seems to be more of a case of seeing what you want to see, though. Kampfer never misadvertised itself as anything other than a fanservice harem anime with some battles between bishoujos on the side.

The most important issue in Kampfer is clearly who he's going to end up with; in a secondary sense we care about what happens to the red/white/blue Kampfer wars.

Also, to the people looking for characters to compare Shizuku to; the most apt comparison is probably Ageha from TAMNM, not Hitagi or Shinra. I say this because relationship wise, Ageha is in the most similar spot to Shizuku in trying to snare a male who's loyal to another woman.

Ageha swoops into TAMNM and basically takes what she wants of the main character (nearly everything heh >_>), and forcefully flirts with him to the point of multiple kisses even as he's trying to stay loyal as the devoted servant of Shinra and co. She does attempt to sleep with him, although probably slightly less forceful in her attempt than Shizuku is in her seduction.

I usually like female characters who know what they want and aren't afraid to try to get it in these kinds of shows. The males are mostly spineless, so it's up to the females to make something happen if anything's going to happen.

[Altima of the Gates]

I usually like female characters who know what they want and aren't afraid to try to get it in these kinds of shows. The males are mostly spineless, so it's up to the females to make something happen if anything's going to happen.

That is the point. What do they have to fear? What is their sacrifice? Where is the anticipation? They always get what they want, and then go elsewhere after getting a piece if they don't get the whole pie. So what if the male is spineless (yeah, the girls don't even get a reprimand for being pushy), so what if he objects, I'm getting mine. Then they wallbangingly try to show she's 'really a good, proper, shy girl inside, whose just coming into her springtime of youth thanks to this strapping young man.' Its a poor way of moving things along romantically, but it indeed does move them along briskly, for whatever reason.

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

That is the point. What do they have to fear? What is their sacrifice? Where is the anticipation? They always get what they want, and then go elsewhere after getting a piece if they don't get the whole pie. So what if the male is spineless (yeah, the girls don't even get a reprimand for being pushy), so what if he objects, I'm getting mine. Then they wallbangingly try to show she's 'really a good, proper, shy girl inside, whose just coming into her springtime of youth thanks to this strapping young man.' Its a poor way of moving things along romantically, but it indeed does move them along briskly, for whatever reason.

Again shizuku isn't like that but your hellbent on saying she is. Again when she's talking about firsts she really means it or else why would she care about a "chance" wasted. Her language her actions toward natsuru are more than just a insincere bitch looking for the next notch on her bed post. Romance isn't as painful as you make it out to be. Unless your the type who believes "true romance" is just one person that has only one other counterpart in ocean.

[Mentar]

Sorry, but that was quite a confusing reply of yours. Could you please try to differentiate between what I actually say and what you THINK I said?

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Ahem. I'll agree that being honest and up front is admirable, but since when does that make the best character? Sorry Mentar, but I'm a bit angry at that kind of sentiment.

I wasn't talking about "the best character" at all in my note. There's no basis for an objective statement like that. What I can say is that _subjectively_, meaning in my OWN opinion, I like her best. But that's hardly something you should get angry about.

To be quite honest, its like you're saying someone who is unsure about themselves should be left out in the cold. Since when had it been so wrong to be indecisive, I mean seriously, look at the time frame here.

I'm not saying anything like that. What I said is that if you have a situation like the one described in Kämpfer, the one actively dealing with the problems AND actively pursuing the guy she likes will most likely have more coverage than the ones who DON'T deal with the problems and whose romantic efforts exhaust themselves with "me too" pouting. Exactly the same would happen in RL.

In Shizuru's case, the mummy hunter eventually became the mummy before she knew it through her playful actions. She got to eat some of the cake without the cake being hers.

And you complain about that because...? Seriously, what's your point? "It's unfair"? If you don't like her, fine. You said that already. More power to you, I don't really care. My note wasn't about that, it was about whether or not we've got a new archetype.

Treated equally, no. Romantic feelings in these situations are hardly equal, but these are the telling of stories, so why even include other characters not pertaining to the immediate romantic chemistry? If you're going to create characters with names, faces, and feelings, make them people, not extras. That's what I'm saying. But anyway, if you're happy, that's great.

Well, obviously it's not great for you. Your reply is literally dripping with scorn. Also, it's not like the other characters wouldn't have taken any part in the romantic chemistry, but they have mostly _stagnated_ for the given reasons.

Your message seems to me that if you want someone bad enough, just do whatever, without their consent and to hell with the consequences. You may get lucky. Pfft.

Again you're putting words in my mouth, it's getting a bit tiring. I'm not judging things this way, or declare "this is how everybody should do it". What I do say is that the tidal wave of tsunderes in the recent years, I find it extremely refreshing to now have 2-3 characters who DO act proactively and determinedly.

In fact, I don't think Shizuku perfectly embodies everything you've put on that list as well as you seem to think.

The four points? Okay, so which one would not apply, in your opinion, and why?

It rather seems like things just snapped into place to fit that train of thought. But since she pushes your kink buttons so hard, what can I say? *shrug*

*gives you a handkerchief*

As for examples of that character archetype, both male and female:

Kazuma from Kaze no Stigma
Nishino Tsukasa from Ichigo 100%

Kazuma... yes, mostly. He doesn't apply fully since when it comes to his feelings, he's very tsundere and NOT honest, so point 3) doesn't match. But 3 out of 4 ain't bad.

Nishino is not exactly what I have in mind. She's way too normal that 1) would apply. All the other points would also be "more yes than no, but this trait isn't so particularly noticeable about her to list it". These points should be so obvious that you'd list her quickly in a characterization summary.

Lack of tact? Or the inability to care/notice what other people want if their own personal desires get too much to bear?

I'd argue that Shizuku has a much better understanding of Natsuru than any other girl, so "notice" is certainly wrong. And it's certainly not the heat of uncontrollable passion which makes Shizuku tangle with him. I have no problem with what she does.

"By gum I'll get 'em kicking and screaming I will! And make 'em like it!"
Good for comedy, bad for romance (for my taste) unless you're some kind of masochist.

*shrug* More power to you if you don't like it, I'm not trying to change your mind.

Particularly with the current situation - Natsuru unreasonably hardwired on a girl which dislikes him - you have two real options: Go after him the way Shizuku does, patiently and repeatedly, to make him notice you and gradually change his mind. Or step back "tactfully" and wait for Kingdom come. Akane demonstrates nicely how well that works. In Real Life too, by the way. At least, in my experience (I've tried things both ways, with comparable results).

And before you hang me for that, in this recent episode she ran under some rather baffling contradictions, since she's always been getting her taste of the snack, for her to say she'd rather have him going after her baffled me. OF COURSE we like it when the one we love reciprocates that love. But seriously, come on, she'll just go ahead and rape him eventually. Its rather unconvincing to me that she's projecting this illusion that its anything but her voicing the fact she'd like it better if he openly admitted her feelings for him. She just gets what she wants and there are no real repercussions for her actions, when I would see other characters get the cold, cold shoulder for just doing what they wanted. *Sigh* Though as bitter as I might seem, I don't really hate her, I did in fact like Shinra from TAMNM.

You really don't get her at all, that's obvious. There's no contradiction here at all. What she wants is clear: She loves Natsuru and wants him to reciprocate her feelings. Before she can get there, she needs to be noticed by him first. He needs to realize first that there's someone else out there who cares for him (until ep10, he considered it impossible that Shizuku might love him), so she's acting on that as far as she can below the formal confession level (which she avoids, because she knows it would be rejected still). Also, in the past he has never resisted her kisses or chewed her out for them afterwards (to your massive chagrin). So why should she stop?

"She'll just go ahead and rape him eventually" you say. Well, obviously not. She would have had a chance in ep10 to do just that. But she didn't. She doesn't want to escalate to this level without at least Natsuru's consent (passive), and preferably his own initiative (active). So there's no contradiction at all, unless you incorrectly label her as a marauding kiss fiend who only wants to ravage the victim's body for her own pleasure. Maybe you should reevaluate your prejudice then.

And about what you'd rather see or not - sounds to me like the real beef you have with the show is Natsuru, then. HE is the guy who tolerates Shizuku's advances and shows a cold shoulder to the other girls *shrug*

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

And? Its great for her that she found love, and if you read what I wrote before that I acknowledged that she had opened up to a new set of feelings. "The mummy hunter became the mummy." But it still seems so strange to me. With the way she worded her experience with guys, I didn't get that she wanted guys to want her for her beauty. I never saw that.

It's the other way round. She said in ep10 that she was never trying to flaunt her assets, and that she never cared for guys falling for her [beauty, brains, power etc.] head over heels. But now she found someone she wanted, and he's not budging (which certainly is a major part of his appeal for her).

It just looked like that she preferred the chase to the conquest, and took any chance to gt a piece. You could even say its part of her pride that she would even say she'd "rather him be doing the chasing."(Heh. Isn't that rather cliche?) It feels to me like a contradiction.

So either the story is contradictory or you have simply been flat-out wrong with your assessment. Guess what it is. Rewatch the 3 girls' scene on the festival and you will know.

All those times of taking up the opportunity and she never gets called on it and its brushed off as comical. Its annoying.

That's Natsuru's "fault", then.

I'll say it again, do you really find it okay to just have someone do things against your will or without your consent? That's what she does, a lot. Lots of other character I would hear they being called a slut for this, or clingy. Frankly, that was what got on my nerves, nobody cites her lack of tact at all. Seriously, if I kiss someone in their sleep, or just on the spot and I don't know them, I'd expect someone to slap me. I wouldn't just do that, and I appreciate people who are affectionate, and I myself am an affectionate person.

Look, it's not really hard to turn your head away when you're kissed. French kissing without implicit consent is literally impossible. Whenever Shizuku came on to him, he didn't really resist, and afterwards, he didn't complain or chew her out. So in MY reading, he's susceptible for that. And if I were Shizuku, until he draws a line and says "no, stop it here", I'd forge on too. (That is, my more grown-up me. My younger me did not, and in hindsight, I think it cost me)

[willyvereb]

Shizuku rejected Natsuru's "advances" there especially because she knew it was Kaede's sheme and as prideful as she is she didn't want to play along with it. And even after that she somehow minded to miss such a great opportunity.

Ialso feel it unjustified that while Shizuku always suceeds Akane's plans always shutted down. Mikoto is a late comer so she's out of picture. But Akane should have also her moments with Natsuru.
I mean she's also trying hard despite her clumsiness and shyness. Maybe even harder than Shizuku. But so far either Natsuru was dense like hell or something happened to make her moves fail.
It isn't realism as the luck(or anime's director?) always favors one character's moves while the other always fails. In reality someone shouldn't be always lucky.
(not to mention Natsuru-level dense people shouldn't exist in the real world making the debate about realism already meaningless)
I just want to see what will happen as Akane suceeds one of her moves...