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Old 2011-11-06, 10:22   Link #5381
DawnEmperor
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Originally Posted by Culaio View Post
I know that kumogawa was forgiven by everyone(only zen doesn't trust him) including his fans, not only that but his fans believe that he deserves harem for being a troll O_o

being easily forgiven is another manga clinche .
Well, that has happened with many Medaka characters.

Akune- Repeatedly attacked Medaka during Middle school
Oudo- Nearly killed Kikaijima and Koga
Kumagawa- Well you know...

On one hand, many antagonists have freudian excuses. On the other hand, certain actions can't be ignored.
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Old 2011-11-06, 11:23   Link #5382
Shinn Kamiyra
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Kumagawa's first kiss (in this manga, anyway) was already with Ajimu. lol, that's how boss he is, man. Kikaijima's is the second.

On the other hand, seeing as it was Ajimu's kiss that traded All Fiction in the first place, maybe Kumagawa was serious about that being the "miracle" that unlocked and revived him.

Munakata lost his impulse to kill, but like Kumagawa said this actually makes him stronger. Now Munakata has no more reason to hold himself back. The hidden weapons he was carrying, were actually a seal on his abilities.

If Kumagawa had actually died, then Munakata would've been disgusted with his abilities and lost not just his will to kill, but his will to fight as well. Just as Munakata unlocked Kumagawa's Book Maker, Kumagawa has unlocked Munakata's real strength as well. I wouldn't call this fight a "win".

Anyway, it's been weird from the beginning that Munakata came to watch Kumagawa on Ajimu's orders. As of this chapter, it seems like Munakata has fully jumped on the wagon of supporting Ajimu's side. Much as Munakata claims to be acting on friendship, in just the last chapter Zenkichi's description of their relationship was nothing more than "We hung out a bit over the summer". The "disgusted look" that Kumagawa mentioned is on Munakata's face all the time--that contempt for everything--I wonder if that isn't the point of connection that make the way he and Ajimu see things similar.

Incidentally, about the Not Equals. I've had this hunch for a while now, and now it seems to be confirmed. All of the Not Equals who are "a part of Ajimu" have a requirement that they be normal. The only skills that they have, are the ones that Anshin'in-san has lent them. This is why with the earlier fight against Aka-san Takarabe said that it should be strange for any "Not Equals" to be near or around the Clock Tower facility for the Flask Plan.

Munakata Koi used to have an abnormal ability. When she destroyed her eye, she got rid of it and became Wanizuka Shiori. Only by becoming a normal was she allowed/able to become part of Ajimu Najimi.
Ah, I'd forgotten about his 'kiss' with Anshin'in. XD

In any case, while a win for Kumagawa may be up to interpretation here, I think we can at least agree that he didn't lose. That in and of itself is pretty significant for his character.

An exceedingly interesting theory for being a Not Equal though. When you think of it like that, it's almost as if near the entire world could become a part of Anshin'in several times over. A truly frightening thought indeed.

Speaking of Anshin'in though... I still haven't quite figured out what it is that's going on in her mind. To her, humans are so valueless an existence that they haven't more worth than a fluttering leaf in the breeze. If that's true, then is she really trying to advance the Flask Plan?

All of this nonsense about the main character and what not, defeating Medaka, and even toying around with Zenkichi. It almost seems as though she's doing nothing but having fun to try and pass the time.
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Old 2011-11-06, 12:19   Link #5383
Haesslich
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I find it more interesting that the Hadaka Apron Alliance wants to return everyone to the status quo... when everyone's changed enough that you'd have to turn back time t get. That state of innocent happiness that existed before th treasure hunt chapter. Like to the time before Zenkichi became a bit abnormal.

I think nobody but Kumagawa understands that it's impossible... but he's going along anyways because it amuses him to try, and because he does act as the ally of the weak (Kikaijima in this case). it won't ever be quite the same -the best they can hope for is a new basis of understanding that will let Zen and Medaka communicate at a respectful level.
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Old 2011-11-06, 12:56   Link #5384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
^
I said hypothetically .

Maybe dislike is the wrong word. Disagree is what i meant. Zenkichi is trying to prove Medaka wrong, but because he wants to be special to her. Medaka wants a good battle, and Kumagawa just wants to screw things up. Now that I think about it, none of them are completely noble motivations. I'll just sit back and see what unfolds.
and i meant it in the sense of hypothetically speaking
i'm not the type of person who jumps the gun smacking every person in the face when they say "hypothetically speaking" or "there is a friend of mine who..." by proclaiming that they are talking about themselves.
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Old 2011-11-06, 13:12   Link #5385
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Culaio View Post
I know that kumogawa was forgiven by everyone(only zen doesn't trust him) including his fans, not only that but his fans believe that he deserves harem for being a troll O_o

being easily forgiven is another manga clinche .
This manga follows shounen cliches extremely closely as much as it loves mocking them. This chapter is the prime example. It spent almost the entire chapter mocking how noone dies in shounens then Kumagawa ass pulls his way back to life, proving noone dies in this manga.

Anyway forgiving Kumagawa isn't really the point, there's a reason why villains have fans even despite the fact of whatever attrocities they've commited. you don't have to be forgiven by someone for your actions in order to be liked by them. People really like Kumagawa so his actions don't really matter. Now if he existed in real life it probably would be a problem but as long as he's fictional they don't care.
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Old 2011-11-06, 14:55   Link #5386
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Hypothetically.

If kuma can unmake his death, would be die if you cut his head off?
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Old 2011-11-06, 14:59   Link #5387
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Old 2011-11-06, 15:00   Link #5388
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Takigashima View Post
Hypothetically.

If kuma can unmake his death, would be die if you cut his head off?
No. It doesn't matter how he dies, since it's all undone by All Fiction anyway. And it's an automatic reaction.
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Old 2011-11-06, 16:11   Link #5389
summers
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I say this every-time but This manga owns face, look forward to this more than Naruto and there was no new powers or anything in that fight.

There is a way that Kumagawa could have gotten his power without Najima help. Since Minus powers are created from their messed up minds and horrible situations, we can call it a mental wound, if Scar Dead opened that wound(hundred Gauntlets) that was "healed" when it was taken away, He could get All fiction back.

Possible?
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Old 2011-11-06, 18:20   Link #5390
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Hmm..... It actually seems he never lost All Fiction in the first place. I think that's what Wanizuka meant when she said Munakata should have talked to Ajimu before killing Kumagwa.
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Old 2011-11-06, 20:17   Link #5391
MD84
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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
I find it more interesting that the Hadaka Apron Alliance wants to return everyone to the status quo... when everyone's changed enough that you'd have to turn back time t get. That state of innocent happiness that existed before th treasure hunt chapter. Like to the time before Zenkichi became a bit abnormal.

I think nobody but Kumagawa understands that it's impossible... but he's going along anyways because it amuses him to try, and because he does act as the ally of the weak (Kikaijima in this case). it won't ever be quite the same -the best they can hope for is a new basis of understanding that will let Zen and Medaka communicate at a respectful level.
It's entirely in character for Kumagawa to attach himself to a lost cause too. I think on some level all of them know it's pretty much impossible, but they all have reasons for trying anyway. The Successors are doing this out of a desire to be something more than Ajimu's pawns (hence why they are not supporting Zenkichi and the Flask Plan), and out of guilt for being the unwitting Apples of Discord that split the Council apart (hence why they are not supporting Medaka). Kikaijima is doing this for the simple reason that she thinks of Medaka and Zenkichi as her friends, and doesn't want to favor one over the other.

I don't agree with their goal because it's impossible and because the status quo wasn't that great in the first place, but their motivations are admirable. Except for Kumagawa, who is just doing this for fun.
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Old 2011-11-06, 22:37   Link #5392
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
I find it more interesting that the Hadaka Apron Alliance wants to return everyone to the status quo... when everyone's changed enough that you'd have to turn back time t get. That state of innocent happiness that existed before th treasure hunt chapter. Like to the time before Zenkichi became a bit abnormal.

I think nobody but Kumagawa understands that it's impossible... but he's going along anyways because it amuses him to try, and because he does act as the ally of the weak (Kikaijima in this case). it won't ever be quite the same -the best they can hope for is a new basis of understanding that will let Zen and Medaka communicate at a respectful level.
I wouldn't say that it's completely impossible...the way Ajimu framed Zenkichi's position was made to look as if he had no other choice if he wanted to be "special" to Medaka...and Medaka has responded to her disappointment in Zenkichi by deciding that fighting him is her only choice in helping him grow. However much it could be said that Medaka prefers her "enemies", however, you have never seen Unzen or Kumagawa cause Medaka to break down into tears. The value that Medaka used to place on Zenkichi was that she thought he was someone who truly shared and understood her ideals. The reason she's grown disillusioned with him now is because she's learned that, rather than understanding her, Zenkichi has actually just been following along with her and acting like whatever she's said has been right. Medaka is encouraging Zen's growth now because she would rather he fight for his own ideals than pretend to go along with hers; but really what Medaka would most appreciate is a "friend" who, on an equal level, genuinely shares her dreams and aspirations.

Medaka and Zenkichi would not have to fight if their goals and ideals were actually the same. The problem is that Zenkichi is not even looking at Medaka's dreams or ideals in the first place, only at the "position" of being the most special person in her heart. What Zenkichi doesn't understand is that it's not, as Ajimu is telling him, her enemies that Medaka would most truly value, but rather someone who genuinely shares her dream. It's only the fact that no such person has yet existed that makes it look like Medaka prefers her enemies.

The thing which could restore the Student Council to peace and repair Zen and Medaka's relationship is if they could come to genuinely support and understand each other. Ajimu has mired Zenkichi in self-doubt and worries about his own position, and Medaka has given up on being understood by Zen without speaking through their fists and bodies, but it's the potential to snap both of them out of this narrow perspective that is represented by Kikaijima's faction.

Is it wrong to want everyone to be happy? Is it wrong to hope that every person could work passionately towards their dreams and their goals? Up to now, deep in his heart, Zenkichi has believed that that isn't possible. (Up until the treasure hunt arc, Akune had believed he was too guilty to deserve such an opportunity. Up to the Election Battles, Kumagawa had believed that that was a world in which the Minus could never take part.) Certainly, Medaka is now encouraging Zenkichi to become strong enough to prove to her that it isn't possible, if that's what he truly believes in. This is what her current actions seem to represent and what is making Kikaijima most upset: giving up hope on Zen ever understanding her and resorting to fists to prove who is right . However what would make Medaka truly happy, restore Zenkichi's place beside her, and eliminate the need to fight, would be if Zenkichi could come to genuinely believe that making others happy, (as well as making himself happy as he told her back when he helped Medaka II change back into herself), was for himself also a worthwhile and achievable goal.

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-11-06 at 22:52.
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Old 2011-11-06, 22:40   Link #5393
Not Somebody
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Spoiler for Chapter 121:
I hope I'm misinterpreting the data on that.

Spoiler for The Stanley Parable:

I like Zen as a character, at least how I perceive him.
I like Medaka as a character, at least how I perceive her.
I love their relationship, this recent arc which is being more real especially making me like their relationship. There are problems there, and I love that, on both sides, and I absolutely want them to correct that. Real truth, face to face. If all Medaka can understand, if all zen can do is to fight, let them speak with their fists. It doesn't really matter that Ajimu is teaching zen how to use his fists, in the end, he's going to be doing the talking with Medaka.

Some relationships break when their weak points come to light. Some develop an even better relationship. I want to see the latter. Either way, it will build more character(I don't mean make them a better person or whatever, but it will characterize them more flesh them out more) for the both of them, and even that would be delicious to read.
Nishio is awesome.

Last edited by Not Somebody; 2011-11-07 at 02:26.
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Old 2011-11-07, 00:04   Link #5394
MD84
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I wouldn't say that it's completely impossible...the way Ajimu framed Zenkichi's position was made to look as if he had no other choice if he wanted to be "special" to Medaka...and Medaka has responded to her disappointment in Zenkichi by deciding that fighting him is her only choice in helping him grow. However much it could be said that Medaka prefers her "enemies", however, you have never seen Unzen or Kumagawa cause Medaka to break down into tears. The value that Medaka used to place on Zenkichi was that she thought he was someone who truly shared and understood her ideals. The reason she's grown disillusioned with him now is because she's learned that, rather than understanding her, Zenkichi has actually just been following along with her and acting like whatever she's said has been right. Medaka is encouraging Zen's growth now because she would rather he fight for his own ideals than pretend to go along with hers; but really what Medaka would most appreciate is a "friend" who, on an equal level, genuinely shares her dreams and aspirations.

Medaka and Zenkichi would not have to fight if their goals and ideals were actually the same. The problem is that Zenkichi is not even looking at Medaka's dreams or ideals in the first place, only at the "position" of being the most special person in her heart. What Zenkichi doesn't understand is that it's not, as Ajimu is telling him, her enemies that Medaka would most truly value, but rather someone who genuinely shares her dream. It's only the fact that no such person has yet existed that makes it look like Medaka prefers her enemies.

The thing which could restore the Student Council to peace and repair Zen and Medaka's relationship is if they could come to genuinely support and understand each other. Ajimu has mired Zenkichi in self-doubt and worries about his own position, and Medaka has given up on being understood by Zen without speaking through their fists and bodies, but it's the potential to snap both of them out of this narrow perspective that is represented by Kikaijima's faction.

Is it wrong to want everyone to be happy? Is it wrong to hope that every person could work passionately towards their dreams and their goals? Up to now, deep in his heart, Zenkichi has believed that that isn't possible. (Up until the treasure hunt arc, Akune had believed he was too guilty to deserve such an opportunity. Up to the Election Battles, Kumagawa had believed that that was a world in which the Minus could never take part.) Certainly, Medaka is now encouraging Zenkichi to become strong enough to prove to her that it isn't possible, if that's what he truly believes in. This is what her current actions seem to represent and what is making Kikaijima most upset: giving up hope on Zen ever understanding her and resorting to fists to prove who is right . However what would make Medaka truly happy, restore Zenkichi's place beside her, and eliminate the need to fight, would be if Zenkichi could come to genuinely believe that making others happy, (as well as making himself happy as he told her back when he helped Medaka II change back into herself), was for himself also a worthwhile and achievable goal.
The dream itself may not be wrong, but its origins are pretty messed up. She made a two year old boy happy when she effortlessly solved a bunch of puzzles -- the first time in her life that her success didn't immediately depress others. That boy impulsively told her that because she made him happy, it must mean that she exists to help others achieve happiness. Her entire life has been devoted to taking that to an extreme. To her credit, she has come to realize that her goal isn't actually achievable, but she's going to try anyway.

Zenkichi does see Medaka's ideals -- he's the one who gave them to her in the first place when he was two. He just doesn't believe in them anymore because he grew up.

Also, the reason Medaka is disappointed in Zenkichi isn't because of any issues concerning ideals or what not. He was only interesting to Medaka as a Normal able to keep up with her. Ajimu shattered that "bond" by making Zenkichi an Abnormal and introducing a bunch of Normal girls who were able to outperform Zenkichi in the Treasure Hunt arc. Zenkichi just didn't measure up anymore. Of course, that changed once Zenkichi decided to become Medaka's enemy.

Zenkichi isn't blameless either. He thought Medaka needed someone who would always protect her and be by her side. It's only now that he understands that Medaka never really needed someone like that, and that he was acting in a patronizing manner by assuming otherwise. And in a way, he's no different from Medaka when it comes to following a goal: to be by Medaka's side as someone special to her. Is it wrong to want to be special to someone you love (without going into creepy stalker territory of course)?

Zenkichi's mistake was that he didn't understand that Medaka just doesn't get personal relationships. Thirteen years of "friendship" ultimately didn't mean anything to Medaka once Zenkichi lost what made him interesting to her. That's why Kikaijima is so upset with Medaka -- she realized that Medaka really doesn't understand peoples' hearts.

Last edited by MD84; 2011-11-07 at 00:17.
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Old 2011-11-07, 00:29   Link #5395
Clarste
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Originally Posted by MD84 View Post
Ajimu shattered that "bond" by making Zenkichi an Abnormal
No comment on the rest of it, but I'm pretty sure Medaka doesn't care in the slightest that Zenkichi now has fancy new eyes. And neither does anyone else other than Zenkichi himself.

Also, I'm not sure having an Abnormal skill makes one an Abnormal on its own. Aka was referred to as a "Skill Holder" rather than an Abnormal, and Abnormality still carries with it the implications of effortless success regardless of the particular abnormality, which obviously Zenkichi hasn't been granted, given his failure to solve the puzzle.
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Old 2011-11-07, 00:44   Link #5396
MD84
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No comment on the rest of it, but I'm pretty sure Medaka doesn't care in the slightest that Zenkichi now has fancy new eyes. And neither does anyone else other than Zenkichi himself.
True. The Parasite Eyes basically removed the Normality that Zenkichi prided himself on, and brought him into the world of Abnormals, a world that he couldn't handle. No one else cares because they aren't Normal people, so they can't understand why it bothers him so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Also, I'm not sure having an Abnormal skill makes one an Abnormal on its own. Aka was referred to as a "Skill Holder" rather than an Abnormal, and Abnormality still carries with it the implications of effortless success regardless of the particular abnormality, which obviously Zenkichi hasn't been granted, given his failure to solve the puzzle.
The Parasite Eyes could have granted Zenkichi an easy win if he had actually used them on one of the others who had figured out the puzzle. He didn't because he was still in denial about not being a Normal anymore and wanted to win through his own efforts, which just weren't enough. He isn't the only Abnormal who tried to suppress his Abnormality to have some semblance of a normal life. Oudo tried his best to suppress his powers to avoid oppressing others before he gave in and embraced megalomania.
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Old 2011-11-07, 01:00   Link #5397
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In a way, zen has become simIlar to the way munakata was with his abnormality,
Something that is their, but a burden to their person.
Munakata had the urge to kill, where zen has eyes to perceive another's world around him.
Something I think most peoPle would not want as it would give you a look at persons personality which could be damaging to your own psyche (it happens with Ajimu. A glimpse in her world made him feel insignificant and disgusted)
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Old 2011-11-07, 04:31   Link #5398
DawnEmperor
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Originally Posted by Takigashima View Post
In a way, zen has become simIlar to the way munakata was with his abnormality,
Something that is their, but a burden to their person.
Munakata had the urge to kill, where zen has eyes to perceive another's world around him.
Something I think most peoPle would not want as it would give you a look at persons personality which could be damaging to your own psyche (it happens with Ajimu. A glimpse in her world made him feel insignificant and disgusted)
I was thinking that as well. Zenkichi tells Munakata in their first battle that "he's not the type that likes to fight", which is similar to Munakata's "killer persona" trying to keep people away. While Zenkichi was a fairly heroic guy, he's never had the burden of trying to understand people from their POV. He's mostly gone by Medaka eventually being right, and following her example. With Parasite Seeing, he feels corrupted, even if it's something that can help him understand others.
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Old 2011-11-07, 09:19   Link #5399
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
I was thinking that as well. Zenkichi tells Munakata in their first battle that "he's not the type that likes to fight", which is similar to Munakata's "killer persona" trying to keep people away. While Zenkichi was a fairly heroic guy, he's never had the burden of trying to understand people from their POV. He's mostly gone by Medaka eventually being right, and following her example. With Parasite Seeing, he feels corrupted, even if it's something that can help him understand others.
I don't think it's that he doesn't understand people, he simply chooses not to understand certain people e.g people he doesn't like. He seems to understand people he likes just fine.

Both him and Medaka work on their pre-established view of people in Medaka's case she assumes everyone is innocent and good and Zen simply considers people to be douchebags if he see's them being douchebags. However Medaka always seems to be able to convert these douchebags so he he eventually began to devalue his own opinion and simply accept hers as fact. This is greatly hinted at the first chapter of story. I think this at the core is the reason their relationship is the way it is. I don't think Zen randomly started praising her and accepting all her opinon's more like than not he didn't agree with her opinions at all, he just knew first hand by been proven wrong every single time just how right she is. He even states in the first chapter he knows most of all just how right she is. Hence why what he's challenging her on currently is that always being right and successful isn't neccesarily a good thing.

Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2011-11-07 at 09:35.
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Old 2011-11-07, 09:32   Link #5400
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I don't think it's that he doesn't understand people, he simply chooses not to understand certain people e.g people he doesn't like. He seems to understand people he likes just fine.
There's the million dollar question.
Would you want to understand someone you hate?
Zen hates Kumagawa because of what he done and his general personality, he lies, cheats and can basically do no wrong.
But zen was mocked, beat down, and pretty much cast aside for an outburst of rage when he couldn't solve a puzzle.
Kinda seems unfair even if one is everyone's fav character. The naked apron alliance believes that the SC were all good friends and on good terms, but the only ones like that were, kikaijima, meda, kuma and Akune.
Again, zen hates kuma, dislikes Akune, loves medaka, and is awkward around kikaijima. Their relationship is not like friends at all.
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