[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Although it was a magic scene, Kumasawa turning into Virgilia is good enough for a hint of a disguise.

Can you exactly explain how? Majorly the scene shows that in magic scenes Virgilia may sometimes represent Kumasawa or that Kumasawa is an older looking version of Virgilia and vice versa.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Marion

Can you exactly explain how? Majorly the scene shows that in magic scenes Virgilia may sometimes represent Kumasawa or that Kumasawa is an older looking version of Virgilia and vice versa.

It's because it was stated that only Kanon and Shannon can see/talk to Beatrice. Yet we see Kumasawa in this scene talking to Beatrice and she has said before that she believes Beatrice exists.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Ssol

It's because it was stated that only Kanon and Shannon can see/talk to Beatrice. Yet we see Kumasawa in this scene talking to Beatrice and she has said before that she believes Beatrice exists.

Saying only Kanon and Shannon can talk to Beatrice isn't necessarily true. Ronove was seen talking to her and he believes in her existence as well. Only servant Beatrice hasn't ever had contact with is Gohda and that's because he doesn't believe in the Witch Legend.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Marion

Saying only Kanon and Shannon can talk to Beatrice isn't necessarily true. Ronove was seen talking to her and he believes in her existence as well. Only servant Beatrice hasn't ever had contact with is Gohda and that's because he doesn't believe in the Witch Legend.

That's right. Even though it was stated that only Kanon/Shannon can talk to Beatrice that statement is not true as you just proved by providing a counterexample.

Given this you could make a theory that with the help of the other servants someone like Shannon, Jessica or even Kumasawa disguises as Beatrice. Saying "there is nothing regarding characters being in disguise like Kumasawa" is just ignoring hints and attempting to throw away a theory that cannot be disproven.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Ssol

That's right. Even though it was stated that only Kanon/Shannon can talk to Beatrice that statement is not true as you just proved by providing a counterexample.

Given this you could make a theory that with the help of the other servants someone like Shannon, Jessica or even Kumasawa disguises as Beatrice. Saying "there is nothing regarding characters being in disguise like Kumasawa" is just ignoring hints and attempting to throw away a theory that cannot be disproven.

I'll give you that much, but as far as Kumasawa being the Beato in EP 4 that Battler sees or the Suit-Beato in EP 2 that Rosa, Maria and Kyrie + others see, I have my doubts. The Beatrice that gave Maria the letter might be a different story though, since Maria is gullible and it's dark out.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Marion

I'll give you that much, but as far as Kumasawa being the Beato in EP 4 that Battler sees or the Suit-Beato in EP 2 that Rosa, Maria and Kyrie + others see, I have my doubts. The Beatrice that gave Maria the letter might be a different story though, since Maria is gullible and it's dark out.

To me those kind of mysteries are more intriguing than "How was this per killed?".

What series of conflicting goals, misinterpreted intentions, and unexpected betrayals lead to all of this?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Ssol

To me those kind of mysteries are more intriguing than "How was this per killed?".

What series of conflicting goals, misinterpreted intentions, and unexpected betrayals lead to all of this?

Spoiler for Minor EP 5:

Well we know that the Beatrice that gave Maria had Kinzo's ring (unless the seal was faked). He died in 1985 before the regular October conference so there was a year to snatch it. This means that Beatrice was probably a person living on the island and possibly knew Kinzo was dead.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Marion

Spoiler for Minor EP 5:

Well we know that the Beatrice that gave Maria had Kinzo's ring (unless the seal was faked). He died in 1985 before the regular October conference so there was a year to snatch it. This means that Beatrice was probably a person living on the island and possibly knew Kinzo was dead.

Spoiler for EP5:

I don't think it was ever mentioned in episode 5 regarding what happened happened to Kinzo's ring after he died. But it's clear that the culprit finds Kinzo's body at some point and then throws it in the furnace.

[Volcanic]

Okay, something a little like this old post of mine, but I find it lickety-split weird. (...lol what was that last part)

Spoiler for I told you Eva and Hideyoshi's deaths were weird!:

So it's pretty common knowledge among us theory-junkies that Eva and Hideyoshi, as long as Eva dies, die at the same time. If Eva lives, it doesn't matter when the heck Hideyoshi dies

Coincidentally, Eva is the only character to live not once but twice, in EP3 and EP5. This would make her the most survivable character. Hideyoshi has never survived past Fifth Twilight.

Now let's check their survival rates super quick:

Eva:
EP1: Second Twilight
EP2: First Twilight
EP3: Survived
EP4: First Twilight
EP5: Survived (Was probably supposed to be the Second Victim in Second Twilight)

Hideyoshi:
EP1: Second Twilight
EP2: First Twilight
EP3: Fifth Twilight
EP4: First Twilight
EP5: (Half-Failed) Second Twilight

Now, I find it pretty darn sinister that Eva, being the most survivable character, has her beloved husband be the least survivable character. I highly doubt she killed him, though, because of what we've seen in EP1 and especially EP3. Either my crazy cult theory of Hideyoshi being Chekhov's Gunman is right, or he's Ryukishi's personal punching bag

[Tyabann]

Someone obviously has it in for Hideyoshi.

Someone who died early in Ep3, but didn't die early in any other episode.

I wonder...

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Someone obviously has it in for Hideyoshi.

Someone who died early in Ep3, but didn't die early in any other episode.

I wonder...

Kanon? Kumasawa? or perhaps Shannon if you think she faked it in episode 1.

[Ithekro]

I'll note that skirt Beatrice's character sheet has Kinzo's ring in detail on it. It was not on their by mistake.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Kanon? Kumasawa? or perhaps Shannon if you think she faked it in episode 1.

My guess is Kanon, as he always survives Hideyoshi by at least one twilight.

The question is why... maybe Hideyoshi is Kanon's father?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

Changing your face and attitude to someone far older is much, much easier than emulating somebody who's supposed to be your age. After all, Battler never did check Kumasawa's breast size.

Kumasawa also has a nasty habit of appearing unexpectedly(Perhaps to refresh her makeup?) and surviving until at least the eighth twilight. Obviously things would be too suspicious if the kindly old lady really survived to the very end, right?

I have no clue what are you talking about. Disguising as someone older is easier than disguising as someone of your age? In what kind of alternative universe this is supposed to be true?

Even though it was stated that only Kanon/Shannon can talk to Beatrice

Can you redirect me to where this was stated? I find it strange because there are evidences that this is not true.

[Kamar]

I personally like the "Beatrice in Disguise as someone else" line of thought better than the alternatives, and the idea that she is disguised as Kumasawa seems to have merit.

It's easier to disguise yourself as someone older for a variety of reasons, and I'd say we have sufficient "hints" to get past the Knox rules about disguises.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Can you redirect me to where this was stated? I find it strange because there are evidences that this is not true.

Sure. It's during the beach scene with Shannon and Beatrice. Here's a screenshot of the text:

Spoiler for Shannon and Kanon can only see Beatrice lie:

As Marion proved, that statement was a lie.

Edit: I should update to v4.2 soon

[MeoTwister5]

To me it was always a matter of perception. Specifically consider the fact that only the servants and Kinzo may have any true inkling of what Beatrice looks like. Aside from Kinzo, we may take as factual that the servants, or at least the ones with one-wing eagles, have met this Beatrice at least once during their tenure and can discern her form even if if she's not dressed in a way similar to the portraits. Contrast this to the rest of the family who's perception of Beato is based on her painting. They can only identify Beato if she looks like the person on the portrait, save perhaps Rosa who may be able to identify Beato based on her past story, whereas it is possible that the servants can identify Beato in a form other than her portrait.

My point is that I believe that the servants and the family ability to identify a "Beatrice" differently. It may still be possible for the family to be able to mistakenly identify someone who claims to be Beato, but it's likewise possible for the servants to positively identify Beato from a fake one. Until it is disproven, it is possible that the real Beato if ever, and a fake one, are both on the island.

This can actually in way account for the discrepancy in Beato's motives. Meta-Beato may exist as the true Beato, and it is made clear that:

Spoiler for Spoilers for Ep5:

Murder is not her true intention for the games and that she wants a resolution to the games.

It is strongly hinted that the real Beato has a final goal radically different from the murderous Beato being presented in the games. I theorized some time back that Meta-Beato and Game Beato do not share the same personality/identity. In short, they aren't and never were the same person. Meta-Beato and Game Beato are two completely distinct individuals. Meta-Beato is linked to the REAL Beatrice, who exists in the island alongside the fake Beato. In this case it is possible that Meta-Beato is fully aware of the existence of the person claiming to be her and murdering people in her name.

From here, I believe that Meta-Beato, and perhaps by extension the real Beatrice's real intent for the games is for Battler to unmask the perpetrator who is framing the real Beatrice for murder. It could then be said that every game that has ever transpired was to try and get Battler to be able to learn and find a way to unmask the perpetrator/s, using her power to revive and redo the tragedy of Rokkenjima, until Battler finally finds the truth and unmasks the culprit. Part of this we can say are all her questionable and trollish behaviour to rile Battler up, as a means to an end. She lets Battler identify the Beatrice murderer to her own so that Battler has a person to focus his energies on.

Beatrice's BSOD at the end of Ep4 is therefore a result of the failure in this regard, as Ep5 proves that the game has indeed changed.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Sure. It's during the beach scene with Shannon and Beatrice. Here's a screenshot of the text:

Spoiler for Shannon and Kanon can only see Beatrice lie:

As Marion proved, that statement was a lie.

Edit: I should update to v4.2 soon

Well since this is part of flashback scene, this is probably referred to that time and place. Meaning that at that time and place (i.e. the rokkenjima village of pre 1986) the only persons who could see Beatrice (among the inhabitants of Rokkenjima) were Shannon and Kanon.

However Maria was probably always able to do so, and the 1986 incident made it possible for Beatrice to show herself to the rest as well.

Actually I wonder if even with such limitations this statement is true
Maybe this was stated from Shannon's and Kanon's perspective which didn't really know the truth about other people who have seen Beatrice.

In fact the side story of Gohda would make you think otherwise.

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

The question is why... maybe Hideyoshi is Kanon's father?

I lol'd I completely doubt that though, seeing Kanon is younger than George and Eva and Hideyoshi are so close.

Ssol brings up a good point with Shannon, if she faked it, but Hideyoshi saw the corpse...right? "o_o I could see her trying to kill both Eva and Hideyoshi so there's nothing in the way of her and George...but like I said, Hideyoshi saw her corpse (supposedly) in EP1, and she couldn't have done it in EP5, I don't think...?

[Kitsu]

Hideyoshi as Kanon's father? Holy crap..would love to see Eva and George's reaction to it.

George: "Come on now^^ Now I don't only marry your older sister but really am your brother...so call me "Nii-san", okay?"
Eva would jsut go Eva-Beato and play a bit with Hideyoshi I guess xDD

If I thought about Kanon being related to someone I either thought of Rudolph or maybe Kyrie/Asumo or sometimes maybe Krauss or Natsuhi..but that wouldn't be so nice cause
"NOOOO! This isn't fair!! I don't want him to be my lil brother but my lover! AHHH! *asthma attack*"

*cough* Being serious, I really can see Kanon being a spross of Rudolph or at least that site of the family.

Ssol brings up a good point with Shannon, if she faked it, but Hideyoshi saw the corpse...right? "o_o I could see her trying to kill both Eva and Hideyoshi so there's nothing in the way of her and George...but like I said, Hideyoshi saw her corpse (supposedly) in EP1, and she couldn't have done it in EP5, I don't think...?

Let's say sg´he used some good makeup and just laid there...I think Hideyoshi could have mistook her for dead. (The other corpses around..the sight being to much for hideyoshi to take so not looking at her in detail)