Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

whats the difference ?

aside, of course, from bradly having an actual REASON to fight (since britannia is his country)

Bradly will take his time killing and tortureing people. Remember the girl that went up to Suzaku and said he killer her parent, if that girl would have went up to bradley he would injure her. Bardly would even attack the civilians given the chance with his knightmare.

[morbosfist]

Bradley being worse does not excuse Suzaku's behavior.

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Bradley being worse does not excuse Suzaku's behavior.

I'm not excusing Suzaku for anything he did, but if Bradley were there ...

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

Bradly will take his time killing and tortureing people. Remember the girl that went up to Suzaku and said he killer her parent, if that girl would have went up to bradley he would injure her. Bardly would even attack the civilians given the chance with his knightmare.

no difference what so ever
suzaku might be less of a JERK, but he is effectively doing the same thing bradly is
meaning, destorying the lives of everyone in the country
that "little" girl he met, is just one, of god knows how many other orphans like her suzaku helped to CREATE
and the suffering she's likely to endure under britannian occupation is all suzaku's fault
so him being NICE to her doesn't change shit

its the same deal with what happened in shinjiku in season 1
suzaku isn't "killing" civilians
hell he even saves one from a falling building
he's just allowing people to get massacred by taking out the only thing PREVENTING it
what happens afterwards, isn't really his problem
same deal here, since we've seen perfectly well how britannian forces IN GENERAL treat civilians in occupied territories

suzaku ends up suffering from complete moral myopia

[morbosfist]

Except he wasn't, Suzaku was, and more to the point he wasn't even there on orders. Bradley wouldn't have been there. He at least waits for orders to be a psychopath.

[Rising Dragon]

And yet if Suzaku hadn't stepped into the fight, it just means that more Britannian soldiers die, and Britannian children lose a mother or father. No one really wins in that situation.

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Except he wasn't, Suzaku was, and more to the point he wasn't even there on orders. Bradley wouldn't have been there. He at least waits for orders to be a psychopath.

What does orders have to do with anything. Order or no order Brit. shouldn't be conquering other countries and be treating them like crap. Even if Bradley came because he was ORDERED to doesn't give him as much as anyone else to conquer that country.

Suzaku came there to increase rank when he saw the oportunity. If he didn't go somebody else would have gotten the credit sooner or later. Does he have any rights in doing this NO but the fact is he did.

Besides, I think most people would avoid the psychopath option if they could.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

And yet if Suzaku hadn't stepped into the fight, it just means that more Britannian soldiers die, and Britannian children lose a mother or father. No one really wins in that situation.

the people who don't have to lose children AND live under occupation do
and since britannia is the one doing the invading, good for them that they lose soldiers
maybe next time they dont trying to invade

you see, its not simply a case of "no one wins"
its better for EVERYONE if britannia stops invading other nations
and the more men and resources they lose in fighting, the more likely they are to do so

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

What does orders have to do with anything. Order or no order Brit. shouldn't be conquering other countries and be treating them like crap. Even if Bradley came because he was ORDERED to doesn't give him as much as anyone else to conquer that country.

Suzaku came there to increase rank when he saw the oportunity. If he didn't go somebody else would have gotten the credit sooner or later. Does he have any rights in doing this NO but the fact is he did.

Besides, I think most people would avoid the psychopath option if they could.

the joke is, that suzaku pretty much says that he actually FOUGHT beside bradly in the EU at some point
how did he managed to miss the point on that
if your fighting beside an ally who is a murdering psychopath and the guy is one of the most high ranking Knights in the army = you're fighting on the wrong side

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the people who don't have to lose children AND live under occupation do
and since britannia is the one doing the invading, good for them that they lose soldiers
maybe next time they dont trying to invade

you see, its not simply a case of "no one wins"
its better for EVERYONE if britannia stops invading other nations
and the more men and resources they lose in fighting, the more likely they are to do so

If that's the case, then why are you all blaming Suzaku for this one fight when its Charles and V.V. who are at fault for starting it all in the first place?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

If that's the case, then why are you all blaming Suzaku for this one fight when its Charles and V.V. who are at fault for starting it all in the first place?

you marked one line
read the one beneath it
the more soldiers and resources britannia loses in battle, the less likely they are to continue them

dont forget that charles isn't the one giving the orders in that battle
shnizel is in command of the entire EU campaign
and he isn't the type who views wasting lives pointlessly as a minor detail

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the people who don't have to lose children AND live under occupation do
and since britannia is the one doing the invading, good for them that they lose soldiers
maybe next time they dont trying to invade

you see, its not simply a case of "no one wins"
its better for EVERYONE if britannia stops invading other nations
and the more men and resources they lose in fighting, the more likely they are to do so

It is a case of no one wins. Britannians are people too, and those families aren't responsible for Schneizel's campaigns. They don't deserve to have their loved ones killed.

Allowing his own side to sustain heavy casualties goes against everything Suzaku stands for. If he has the ability to make a difference and save lives (no blade, 1 life is not better than another, a life is a life) why shouldn't he? Schneizel OBVIOUSLY didn't give a crap about losses, and he wasn't gonna back down no matter what, so a lot more soldiers would've died on both sides had Suzaku not intervened.

He did the right thing.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

It is a case of no one wins. Britannians are people too, and those families aren't responsible for Schneizel's campaigns. They don't deserve to have their loved ones killed.

Allowing his own side to sustain heavy casualties goes against everything Suzaku stands for. If he has the ability to make a difference and save lives (no blade, 1 life is not better than another, a life is a life) why shouldn't he? Schneizel OBVIOUSLY didn't give a crap about losses, and he wasn't gonna back down no matter what, so a lot more soldiers would've died on both sides had Suzaku not intervened.

He did the right thing.

THAT is the one mistake in the entire post
and its also the one that makes it a flawed one
it shouldn't be his side
thats the root of the entire problem with suzaku really

and if britannian families don't deserve to have their loved ones killed
they shouldn't be sending them to invade other countries
britannia doesn't have a mandatory enlistment
anyone who joins the army, does so at their own choice

and by the way, one life IS better then another
namely, the life of one soldier defending his home against invasion, is worth ten lives of those who get paid to invade it
because, unlike them, he has a right to defend his home, while they have no right to invade it
its a simple

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

He did the right thing.

If he would have joined the blackknights or actually made change in Britanian society then he did the right thing otherwise Suzaku is in the wrong.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

It is a case of no one wins. Britannians are people too, and those families aren't responsible for Schneizel's campaigns. They don't deserve to have their loved ones killed.

The EU soldiers' families didn't deserve to have their loved ones killed either. They ALSO didn't deserve to be conquered and forced into becoming second class citizens in their own homes.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Allowing his own side to sustain heavy casualties goes against everything Suzaku stands for.

So he just inflicts them on the other side?

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

If he has the ability to make a difference and save lives (no blade, 1 life is not better than another, a life is a life) why shouldn't he? Schneizel OBVIOUSLY didn't give a crap about losses, and he wasn't gonna back down no matter what, so a lot more soldiers would've died on both sides had Suzaku not intervened.

Suzaku was doing all of this expressly to help the Japanese. He certainly seemed to think so. Or he simply didn't care.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

He did the right thing.

Murdering people so his allies can enslave their families is right?

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and by the way, one life IS better then another
namely, the life of one soldier defending his home against invasion, is worth ten lives of those who get paid to invade it
because, unlike them, he has a right to defend his home, while they have no right to invade it
its a simple

This is where I'm gonna disagree. However, I believe our disagreement lies in our own personal deep-rooted beliefs. So I'm not saying this in the hopes of changing you opinion, I'm just stating my case.

I don't think someone being more "righteous" than someone else makes that person's life more valuable than the other person's. After all, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Of course, I think it's wrong to kill under any circumstance, my beliefs in the regard are very idealistic and wouldn't work in the real world, but I still believe in them.

[azul120]

What I was saying was that there was a difference, in sort of a difference between bad and even worse. In now way was I denying that Suzaku was doing the wrong thing.

And I think that that Suzaku was fighting alongside Bradley can be chalked up to apathy or cluelessness, both of which are plausible.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

THAT is the one mistake in the entire post
and its also the one that makes it a flawed one
it shouldn't be his side
thats the root of the entire problem with suzaku really

and if britannian families don't deserve to have their loved ones killed
they shouldn't be sending them to invade other countries
britannia doesn't have a mandatory enlistment
anyone who joins the army, does so at their own choice

and by the way, one life IS better then another
namely, the life of one soldier defending his home against invasion, is worth ten lives of those who get paid to invade it
because, unlike them, he has a right to defend his home, while they have no right to invade it
its a simple

But it is his side.
He joined the army then was swore in as a Knight by Euphie and later officially recognized by Cornelia. He was Japanese but he swore loyalty to the crown and Britannia...why is that so difficult to understand?

Btw, I'm interested in how you came up with those numbers... I mean really, 1/10? Is there a calculator for this?

The whole aggressor vs defender argument falls apart when you look at the bigger picture. For example, Japan was no Zanc kingdom, or Orb. It wasn't an Utopia and its leaders sure as hell weren't saints. It all boils down to soldiers doing their jobs, one is invading the other defending, and both probably had nothing to do with the decisions made by their leaders.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

But it is his side.
He joined the army then was swore in as a Knight by Euphie and later officially recognized by Cornelia. He was Japanese but he swore loyalty to the crown and Britannia...why is that so difficult to understand?

If it were his side, he'd be more interested in making Britannia great than subverting its ideals. His side is Japan, only he's come up with the insane idea that he can somehow play for the other side and help the one its oppressing without actually being one of them. He fails spectacularly at that until he gets a clue.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

The whole aggressor vs defender argument falls apart when you look at the bigger picture. For example, Japan was no Zanc kingdom, or Orb. It wasn't an Utopia and its leaders sure as hell weren't saints. It all boils down to soldiers doing their jobs, one is invading the other defending, and both probably had nothing to do with the decisions made by their leaders.

That's looking at the smaller picture, not the bigger one. Japan was invaded by Britannia. No country is perfect, but economic pressure is hardly equivalent to a full-scale invasion and occupation.

[Arbitres]

This is getting us no where...

Suzaku > Joined the military for three reasons, two of those later decaying and becoming excuses rather then actual ideals.

1) He wants to find 'redemption' in death.
2) he wants to 'change' how the system works in Area Eleven
3) He wants to ascend the food chain to be allowed personal sovereign over Japan, so he could make it more ideal.

The third one may be a tad off, but it more or less fits his hypocritical existence.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Solstice Cross

This is getting us no where...

Suzaku > Joined the military for three reasons, two of those later decaying and becoming excuses rather then actual ideals.

1) He wants to find 'redemption' in death.
2) he wants to 'change' how the system works in Area Eleven
3) He wants to ascend the food chain to be allowed personal sovereign over Japan, so he could make it more ideal.

The third one may be a tad off, but it more or less fits his hypocritical existence.

From what I understand, he actually wanted to die simply as a form of escapism from his guilt over killing his father, and he was justifying it as seeking redemption or punishment for his crimes. The series guide says that Suzaku's punishment in ZR was life, as he wanted death more than anything, or something to that effect. The idea was basically that since Lelouch wanted a life with Nunally more than anything, he would punish himself with death, while Suzaku, who wanted death, would punish himself by agreeing to live.