[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[ghost_zero5]

I just thought about this - maybe/probably it was already mentioned but... - in Ep2 Battler met Beatrice in the end.
However, if there are only 17 persons (as Beatrice stated in red in Ep4 Tea Pary) on the island that would mean that at least another person would have to be dead beforehand (like it is with Kinzo) - or at least not be on the island - because otherwise the person "Beatrice" can't be explained or that "Beatrice" was someone else in disguise without Battler noticing it - however, I don't know which person could be able to disguise as Beatrice without anyone else noticing because of "size differences" and such things.

[darkmind35]

Originally Posted by ghost_zero5

I just thought about this - maybe/probably it was already mentioned but... - in Ep2 Battler met Beatrice in the end.
However, if there are only 17 persons (as Beatrice stated in red in Ep4 Tea Pary) on the island that would mean that at least another person would have to be dead beforehand (like it is with Kinzo) - or at least not be on the island - because otherwise the person "Beatrice" can't be explained or that "Beatrice" was someone else in disguise without Battler noticing it - however, I don't know which person could be able to disguise as Beatrice without anyone else noticing because of "size differences" and such things.

Spoiler for about Ghost_zero's idea:

I think someone said it earlier but wasn't Battler drinking before Genji (or who appears to be Genji) directed Battler to Kinzo's study? he did drink a lot because he thought that this was going to be his last night alive. if we presume that Battler was heavily drunk, his "testimony" cant serve as evidence.

Spoiler for EP4 Ange's part spoilers:

and btw about how Ange dies (as it is indeed stated in the witch's game record). as most ppl from anti-fantasy POV i also agree that Ange's bodyguard must have sniped Kasumi and her goons that were about to kill Ange. It isn't stated what happens after that, but my theory is that as her last job, Ange goes to check Kuwadorian and finds very disturbing evidence linked to Battler's "sin"

Eva might have refrained from telling the truth about what happened in Rokkenjima, not because she hated Ange, but because she wanted to protect her and the Ushiromiya family honor. Eva as the main culprit for EP3 feels too easy. i suspect she did indeed kill *some* people, but she wasn't the mastermind. after all, in all episodes expect EP3 "the witch revives and no-one is left alive", but Eva is the one who finds the "Golden Land" (discovers the truth and is able to escape the true culprits(s)' plan) and the culprits(s)' plan to kill off all the attending members is foiled.

maybe Ange discovers the truth about Rokkenjima Mass Murder Incident, but is so overwhelmed by the truth, that she cant stand it and kills herself. also in meta world she appears to know what Beatrice is about to do when she starts to question Battler's heritage and his qualification as her oppenent, which in turn tells that Ange knows at least something about the fact Battler (the one we know) is not Asumu's son. we can speculate a lot because there is no red truth for year 1998 presented (at least for the moment). feel free to shoot thru this theory

[Shamisen]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

About the siesta I guess you missed the earlier discussions. The siestas are Maria's ceramic rabbits. There's overwhelming evidence about that. One of Maria's rabbit was destroyed by Rosa and that is why the fourth siesta is dead (killed by the evil witch).

Late picture is late.

Spoiler for AND I MEAN LATE.:

[Squirrellord]

Just something random I thought while watching the anime:

Episode 2, Maria's candy gets obliterated by Rosa, then Beatrice uses magic to fix it. At one point, Beatrice wants Battler to explain this, since Rosa witnessed it. There's an incredibly simple solution to this...
Maria meets Beatrice.
She gives Beato the sucker that she had brought for her.
Beato notices Maria's broken one and tells her to close her eyes.
Beatrice does *magic*
Beatrice gives Maria back the "broken" candy.

Who's to say Beato just didn't pocket the broken one and give the fresh one to Maria? ;D

[Kadrias]

I thought the exact same thing when watching that scene. XD
Her own candy seems to have disappeared, too.

[k//eternal]

I guess the question is just "What did Rosa see", but then again, maybe she was behind that scene herself.

[Darklas]

Spoiler for :

Maybe. Just maybe. Beatrice = Ushiromiya Battler. Now don't say that Beatrice denied it yet.
.........Ushiromiya Battler. I will now...kill you.

.........And right now, there is no one other than you on this island, The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere.

.........You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you.
From this, Battler is the only one on the island, so only Battler can be the killer.
You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son.
And from this, we can say that the "Battler" we know is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son.

My theory is! There are truly 2 Ushiromiya Battlers. One is the one we know and Beatrice is actually Ushiromiya Battler. The one Kyrie gave birth to did not die and Asumu's also did not die.

However, due to some medical mistake or something (Devil's Proof effective), Kyrie's was mistaken to be Asumu's. Asumu's was supposed to be named Ushiromiya Battler. But Kyrie's was named Ushiromiya Battler because it was thought to be Asumu's. So both of them are Ushiromiya Battler.

From the first three lines of red text I have given, they might be twisted. As in, sometimes, "you" refers to Ushiromiya Battler as the both of them, and other times, it refers to Ushiromiya Battler as the one we know.

As for "No more than 17 humans exist on this island!! That excludes any 18th person. In short, this 18th person X does not exist!! This applies to all games!!!"

It might also be twisted. As in, "humans" refer to "names". In this case, since they are under the same name, they are twisted to be recognised as the same person. Or otherwise, someone else, like Kinzo, might be dead at the start. Or worse, it might be so twisted that "furniture" are not recognised as humans. So Kanon, Shannon and Genji might not even be included!

However, this theory refers only to EP4, as I think it would be boring to explain it so easily as "An Ushiromiya Battler did it." for everything. In my opinion, Umineko is not a simultaneous equation, where the culprit is always the same. I believe that each game has a different culprit.

[k//eternal]

I think I've seen that theory several times before already (the "names = 1 person" one, at least; I know I've brought up "furniture != people" in the past as well), but it really would feel like a cheap way out to include multiple people as one person... all the crimes become way too simple.

[ghost_zero5]

Originally Posted by darkmind35

Spoiler for about Ghost_zero's idea:

I think someone said it earlier but wasn't Battler drinking before Genji (or who appears to be Genji) directed Battler to Kinzo's study? he did drink a lot because he thought that this was going to be his last night alive. if we presume that Battler was heavily drunk, his "testimony" cant serve as evidence.

Spoiler for answer to quote:

I guess you are right that is a possibility but in that case the culprit would have to make sure he was drunk enough to not recognize with whom he is speaking.
Furthermore, Battler would really need to be extremely drunk and I don't think he would have been able to walk to Kinzo's study all by himself if he was that drunk.(Actually I am not completely sure anymore: Did he walk there alone or was he escorted?)
Furthermore, there is the possibility that the culprit used some sort of toxin - e.g. mixed in his drinks.

In any case that scene is strange in another way too: If Kinzo was always dead from the beginning and someone else has replaced Kinzo whom the children recognize as Kinzo, I didn't expect that the grandchildren know so too.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by ghost_zero5

Spoiler for answer to quote:

I guess you are right that is a possibility but in that case the culprit would have to make sure he was drunk enough to not recognize with whom he is speaking.
Furthermore, Battler would really need to be extremely drunk and I don't think he would have been able to walk to Kinzo's study all by himself if he was that drunk.(Actually I am not completely sure anymore: Did he walk there alone or was he escorted?)
Furthermore, there is the possibility that the culprit used some sort of toxin - e.g. mixed in his drinks.

In any case that scene is strange in another way too: If Kinzo was always dead from the beginning and someone else has replaced Kinzo whom the children recognize as Kinzo, I didn't expect that the grandchildren know so too.

Genji escorted him. Genji is also the one who gave him the drinks so.

[Darklas]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I think I've seen that theory several times before already (the "names = 1 person" one, at least; I know I've brought up "furniture != people" in the past as well), but it really would feel like a cheap way out to include multiple people as one person... all the crimes become way too simple.

Okay then. =X

Originally Posted by ghost_zero5

Spoiler for answer to quote:

I guess you are right that is a possibility but in that case the culprit would have to make sure he was drunk enough to not recognize with whom he is speaking.
Furthermore, Battler would really need to be extremely drunk and I don't think he would have been able to walk to Kinzo's study all by himself if he was that drunk.(Actually I am not completely sure anymore: Did he walk there alone or was he escorted?)
Furthermore, there is the possibility that the culprit used some sort of toxin - e.g. mixed in his drinks.

In any case that scene is strange in another way too: If Kinzo was always dead from the beginning and someone else has replaced Kinzo whom the children recognize as Kinzo, I didn't expect that the grandchildren know so too.

He was escorted by Genji.
EDIT: Beaten. =X

[k//eternal]

I don't mean to shoot you down though, it's just that it's less crazy than you think

[MeoTwister5]

Personally I have a lot crazier theories in mind, which will probably bite the dust come tomorrow, August 15.

[Darklas]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I don't mean to shoot you down though, it's just that it's less crazy than you think

Nah, its okay. I'll just have to think again.

[zorahk]

Ok so I just finished this and I am slightly confused.

Spoiler for massive spoiler questions:

Beatrice didn't die at the end, because Lambd disproved all of Battler's theories, correct? So the game is not over.

My main question however, is regarding what is the deal with Battler. Are there multiple Battlers?

[darkmind35]

Spoiler for about Kitsu's theory:

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Since is kinda dead hear I go with a theory!


Rudolph and Kyrie are the second Twilight in the third game. Maria and Rosa still belong to the first twilight. At least one persons death in the first twilight was fake and that person was either Kanon or Shannon. Now we can go in two directions
Both Kanon and Shannon's death was fake (would explain the latter scenes with reviving and that crap) and Kinzo counted as sacrifice
or
Kinzo counted and only one of them survived


Reasoning:
Till then the victims of the second twilight were always staked. Rosa and Maria weren't. There was a lot of mentioning on how close Rudolph and Kyrie are. It would explain the reviving of both Kanon or Shannon in the end. Till then the second twilight was always a pair of lovers, I wouldn't call Maria and Rosa lovers.

I agree with you. In the 3rd twilight something went horribly wrong with the culprits(s)' plan and there was a survivor, Eva.

btw im thinking that in the 4th EP the one who gives maria letter is a man instead of woman (duh). i think it is different from the 3 others also because: i watched the anime and remembered the scene where they aknowledge Beatrice as the witch, the alchemy councilor AND the master of the mansion. i think this is important point because it is the kinzo doing the killings (in anti-mystery POV) in EP4 instead of beatrice. maybe the one they aknowledged "Kinzo" (successor of the ushiromiya family as battler suspects) was woman in all EPs expect in EP4.

oh and zorakh:

Spoiler for as was stated:

Battler could say: "Ushiromiya Battler is Asumu's son.", but couldn't say "I am Ushiromiya Asumu's son", but he said "I am Ushiromiya Battler.", which implies that there is/was a second (or the "first") person that is/was named Ushiromiya Battler, but who also is/was Asumu's son.

[Ttak]

Originally Posted by Darklas

Spoiler for :

Maybe. Just maybe. Beatrice = Ushiromiya Battler. Now don't say that Beatrice denied it yet.
.........Ushiromiya Battler. I will now...kill you.

.........And right now, there is no one other than you on this island, The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere.

.........You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you.
From this, Battler is the only one on the island, so only Battler can be the killer.
You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son.
And from this, we can say that the "Battler" we know is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son.

My theory is! There are truly 2 Ushiromiya Battlers. One is the one we know and Beatrice is actually Ushiromiya Battler. The one Kyrie gave birth to did not die and Asumu's also did not die.

However, due to some medical mistake or something (Devil's Proof effective), Kyrie's was mistaken to be Asumu's. Asumu's was supposed to be named Ushiromiya Battler. But Kyrie's was named Ushiromiya Battler because it was thought to be Asumu's. So both of them are Ushiromiya Battler.

From the first three lines of red text I have given, they might be twisted. As in, sometimes, "you" refers to Ushiromiya Battler as the both of them, and other times, it refers to Ushiromiya Battler as the one we know.

As for "No more than 17 humans exist on this island!! That excludes any 18th person. In short, this 18th person X does not exist!! This applies to all games!!!"

It might also be twisted. As in, "humans" refer to "names". In this case, since they are under the same name, they are twisted to be recognised as the same person. Or otherwise, someone else, like Kinzo, might be dead at the start. Or worse, it might be so twisted that "furniture" are not recognised as humans. So Kanon, Shannon and Genji might not even be included!

However, this theory refers only to EP4, as I think it would be boring to explain it so easily as "An Ushiromiya Battler did it." for everything. In my opinion, Umineko is not a simultaneous equation, where the culprit is always the same. I believe that each game has a different culprit.

Well, it was said in red on EP 3 that "furniture" is considered human for people/corpse counting. And about the Battler theory, (if you are saying the 2 were on the island, with the "You" from "You are all alone..." refering to them) it was said before (by Jan-Poo) that on japanese, they used a word (Anata?) which can only refer to one person.

[Darklas]

Originally Posted by Ttak

Well, it was said in red on EP 3 that "furniture" is considered human for people/corpse counting. And about the Battler theory, (if you are saying the 2 were on the island, with the "You" from "You are all alone..." refering to them) it was said before (by Jan-Poo) that on japanese, they used a word (Anata?) which can only refer to one person.

No I meant that "you" referred to "Ushiromiya Battler" as a whole, meaning anyone under the name Ushiromiya Battler is counted as "you", making the statement equivalent to "Ushiromiya Battler is all alone on this island." Thus, since both of them are "Ushiromiya Battler", they are counted as one, because it is true that only "Ushiromiya Battler" exists on the island as no one else with another name exists on the island anymore.
*Okay fine, its like confusing. =.=* *Well, I'm not so clever, so I'll just wait for the answer. ;X*

[Wakuseino]

Ok, I've gone through Episode 4 again, and looking back on it, this thing is seriously driving me absolutely insane. Absolutely none of it makes sense, whether I look at it from the "magic" theory or the "human" theory. I don't even know where to begin with the inconsistencies, and these have all probably been pointed out before, but...

Spoiler:

It looks to me like the killings weren't according to the Twilights in the slightest. Even assuming that the Second Twilight as George and Jessica actually vaguely makes sense, we have the Fourth through Eighth Twilights, which, let's review...

The Fourth Twilight was named as Kanon in red. His body is unknown, so we don't know whether he was gouged or not. The rest we can get via the cast roll at the end of Tea Party 4:
Fifth Twilight was Shannon. Her body was not gouged with a stake at all, but a stake was left next to her body
Sixth Twilight was Nanjo. His body was in a similar condition to Shannon: Not gouged, though a stake was nearby.
Seventh Twilight was Krauss. His body was in fact, gouged... in the head.
Eighth Twilight was Kyrie. Her body was also gouged... in the head.

Looking at the way it's set up, we can see only a vague adherence to the twilights. In fact, you can't say that ANY of the bodies from the fourth to eighth twilights match the Twilight they're supposed to be, and even if we assume that the twilights aren't in the order the cast roll says, we still have problems. We have two instances that could be the fourth twilight, and no instances of any other.

What exactly does this mean? The killer, whether via magic or human, was not actually following the epitaph's ritual, but rather trying to make it look like it was. The fact that Beatrice wound up showing up as a piece regardless probably operates as proof that the ritual has absolutely nothing to do with the resurrection of Beatrice, which in turn completely destroys the magic side's motive in the game. What exactly is the magic side trying to accomplish, and why is it necessary to kill everyone?

I suppose this is probably all linked to Battler's sin, though I can't imagine how.

There are lots of other problems and weird things that I can't just put together in a meaningful way, but for the time being that's the one that's really bugging me.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Darklas

*Okay fine, its like confusing. =.=* *Well, I'm not so clever, so I'll just wait for the answer. ;X*

It's ok we're all confused at this point.
It's only safe to assume there are about 0-8 Battlers (Two for each game or mabye one per game or mabye none at all! )

My question to the whole "I will now...kill you." thing is the timing of it. Obviously gameboard Battler doesn't die at the end of episode 4 so when does this red text become the truth?