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Old 2010-12-29, 05:28   Link #761
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
You, sir, are quoting it wrong.
Huh? Dex is saying that I am taking what he said out of context. That is patently wrong. I am directly referring to Dex saying that Alto was not acting his clearly acted kiss with Ranka in episode ten, comparing Altos reaction to Sheryls ambush kiss to the set-up and acted kiss with Ranka. How am I taking this out of context?
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Old 2010-12-29, 06:37   Link #762
karice67
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@magnus
I can't actually remember what Yasaburo said wrt Alto, so I'm going to have to wait til we watch it (next week, was it?).

As for applying details revealed not in the series proper - I personally tend to put more trust in it if Kawamori indicates in some way that it's part of the set up / background material for the series or a particular character.

As for this
Spoiler for long quote from magnus:
Sorry, the way I wrote that doesn't bring out what I really wanted to say, which is that it's something for us, the viewers to keep in mind. In creating a character, Kawamori and Nakamura et al don't explicitly have to tell us precisely what a certain character's motivations are. "Show, don't tell" and all that, see?

Not that I really mind, because it makes character analysis interesting. I'd hate to have everything spelled out for me.

====

Also, just was to check before I bring in something else for consideration: was 10 the episode where Alto's past as a Kabuki star is confirmed? I remember seeing images of Sakura-hime at various points, not to mention the various hints like his nickname, but don't recall it being mentioned out loud...
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Old 2010-12-29, 07:04   Link #763
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Also, just was to check before I bring in something else for consideration: was 10 the episode where Alto's past as a Kabuki star is confirmed? I remember seeing images of Sakura-hime at various points, not to mention the various hints like his nickname, but don't recall it being mentioned out loud...
It's revealed in the first episode already. The cross-dressing thing comes up here explicitly at first, but was alluded to in episode four, when Alto sees his father entering the Miss Macross contest.
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Old 2010-12-29, 08:03   Link #764
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^
orz...it's only been like 2 and a half months, and I've already forgotten...

Ah, but what Luca says when they are backstage is interesting if we think about what Alto was doing in real life before leaving his home. I'll see if it's relevant next week, or even sometime later down the track.
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Old 2010-12-29, 09:40   Link #765
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
@magnus
I can't actually remember what Yasaburo said wrt Alto, so I'm going to have to wait til we watch it (next week, was it?).
Yasaburo said that current acting role was that as a pilot, and that it was a cheesy role, but there was more to it than that.

Alto's past of Sakurahime was pretty much a repeated point in terms of Alto's character.
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Old 2010-12-29, 10:41   Link #766
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Huh?
"Huh" right back at ya. I was talking about the "I don't think you know what that means..." line, which should have been: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means". And that is all.

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Old 2010-12-29, 11:08   Link #767
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Yasaburo said that current acting role was that as a pilot, and that it was a cheesy role, but there was more to it than that.
Yep, which is why I always facepalm so hard at Yasaburo trying to psych Alto with his talk about Alto "only acting". He doesn't understand Alto in the first place, so his analysis is false from the outset.

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"Huh" right back at ya. I was talking about the "I don't think you know what that means..." line, which should have been: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means". And that is all.

Oh, allright. I guess I was deep in discussion mode and didn't recognize the pun.
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Old 2010-12-29, 11:41   Link #768
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Yep, which is why I always facepalm so hard at Yasaburo trying to psych Alto with his talk about Alto "only acting". He doesn't understand Alto in the first place, so his analysis is false from the outset.
Maybe Yasaburo doesn't understand Alto but then again maybe he's on to something. But I'll hold off my views until we get up to episode 11.
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Old 2010-12-29, 12:13   Link #769
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Maybe Yasaburo doesn't understand Alto but then again maybe he's on to something. But I'll hold off my views until we get up to episode 11.
Yeah, let's not pre-discuss everything we could say about it.
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Old 2010-12-29, 15:20   Link #770
DeX-kun
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I don't think you know what that means...
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Huh? Dex is saying that I am taking what he said out of context. That is patently wrong. I am directly referring to Dex saying that Alto was not acting his clearly acted kiss with Ranka in episode ten, comparing Altos reaction to Sheryls ambush kiss to the set-up and acted kiss with Ranka. How am I taking this out of context?
You did take it out of context because there was much more than what you just quoted sir, aside from the fact that the response wasn't meant for you (I.e. - The initial response.)

It wasn't just about the kiss being acted or not, it's about the issues that Alto had with acting at this point of the series (which should be evident in this episode.) The problem being that you don't even want to accept that the idea of Alto "acting" even outside of a role is plausible.

Remember that I was quoting Wisteria and not you. What I thought she was implying was different from what you think it was. It's really just a misunderstanding my good friend

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Look, that wasn't a spontaneous scene. That was a scene where Alto and Ranka re-eneacted, panel for panel, the exact same scene from Macross Zero. Ranka took some deeper meaning from that than there was, that's documented in the series. But you imply that Alto took the kiss as a real kiss from his side, and there is really no indication of that in the series.
I don't even think we're on the same wavelength here to be honest. That's not what I was implying and that's not what Ranka took from the kiss. That kiss wasn't even mentioned again after episode 10 (not even by Ranka herself) so I'm not sure I see how it was "documented in the series."

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I especially consider the "I fear getting lost in my characters" speech from the movie to be of separate continuity, since it was not what I was getting at all from Alto in the series. It's not an aspect which I think enhanced the character, rather the contrary.
Quite frankly, isn't that just being hard-headed? Would you even concede to it being plausible, at the very least. I know we all have somewhat different opinions on the matter, but there's no room for discussion if one doesn't at least acknowledge other opinions aside from their own.
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Old 2010-12-29, 16:06   Link #771
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I really don't have the time to watch all the series again, i've watched some episodes and that's why i haven't write here, but it's more fun to read the comments of everyone for each episode, it makes me remember what I thought of the episodes the first time I watched them.
I knew that by episode 10 it would get better, I only want to comment about this.

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That's not what I was implying and that's not what Ranka took from the kiss. That kiss wasn't even mentioned again after episode 10 (not even by Ranka herself) so I'm not sure I see how it was "documented in the series."
Well it's only one episode later really, but magnuskn is right, sorry for getting a little bit ahead of you guys but
Spoiler for Ranka's reaction:
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Old 2010-12-29, 16:11   Link #772
DeX-kun
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Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter View Post
Well it's only one episode later really, but magnuskn is right, sorry for getting a little bit ahead of you guys but
Spoiler for Ranka's reaction:
Ah, you're right! My mistake, I must apologize to Magnus then for getting that wrong. Thank you for pointing that out. I completely forgot about it.

Edit: I would give you some rep but apparently I need to spread some more love first
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Old 2010-12-29, 19:04   Link #773
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You did take it out of context because there was much more than what you just quoted sir, aside from the fact that the response wasn't meant for you (I.e. - The initial response.)
No, I was not. Really, research what "taking out of context" means. To summarize, if I'd taken your quote out of context, I'd have used it to take a stance against a point you weren't even making. Like if you say "Rankas costume in movie two is great! I like the magical girl outfit, because it conveys her enthusiasm!" and I quote the "I like the magical girl outfit" part and go "Haha, Dex likes to dress in magical girl outfits!". That's taking something out of context.

What I did was taking a few sentences of your statement which spoke to a certain sentiment and responding to those specifically. That I didn't answer the rest of your statement or that you were directing them at someone else has nothing to do with "taking them out of context".

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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
It wasn't just about the kiss being acted or not, it's about the issues that Alto had with acting at this point of the series (which should be evident in this episode.) The problem being that you don't even want to accept that the idea of Alto "acting" even outside of a role is plausible.

Remember that I was quoting Wisteria and not you. What I thought she was implying was different from what you think it was. It's really just a misunderstanding my good friend
The problem I have with Alto "acting" outside of a real acting gig is that this isn't supported by any hard source. Yasaburo saying it so does not make it credible, because Yasaburo has ulterior motives. We certainly never see Alto acknowledging this as a fact, instead we have him angrily denying it throughout the series. Show me a quote by Alto that he was acting, instead of being genuine ( and no, him saying that he was ignoring that both girls were showing feelings towards him doesn't count... that's just playing dumb, not playacting genuine emotions ). Otherwise you are just as blindly opinionating about Altos motivations as Yasaburo was.

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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
I don't even think we're on the same wavelength here to be honest. That's not what I was implying and that's not what Ranka took from the kiss. That kiss wasn't even mentioned again after episode 10 (not even by Ranka herself) so I'm not sure I see how it was "documented in the series."
Yeah, she took it seriously. In the very next episode, we'll see her getting all blush-faced after her conversation with Nanase. As pointed out by Dash_Hunter.

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Quite frankly, isn't that just being hard-headed? Would you even concede to it being plausible, at the very least. I know we all have somewhat different opinions on the matter, but there's no room for discussion if one doesn't at least acknowledge other opinions aside from their own.
I've never seen you express the sentiment that Alto was getting lost in his acting roles and unsure of his own personality before the movie came out. I've never seen anyone express that opinion before the movie came out. This collating of the motivations of movie Alto with series Alto is not flying with me, because it is as ludicrous as trying to say that movie Ranka is the same person as series Ranka.
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Old 2010-12-29, 20:00   Link #774
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
No, I was not. Really, research what "taking out of context" means. To summarize, if I'd taken your quote out of context, I'd have used it to take a stance against a point you weren't even making. Like if you say "Rankas costume in movie two is great! I like the magical girl outfit, because it conveys her enthusiasm!" and I quote the "I like the magical girl outfit" part and go "Haha, Dex likes to dress in magical girl outfits!". That's taking something out of context.

What I did was taking a few sentences of your statement which spoke to a certain sentiment and responding to those specifically. That I didn't answer the rest of your statement or that you were directing them at someone else has nothing to do with "taking them out of context".
I know what it means to take something out of context. The lines you quoted does make it sound like I was implying Alto was not "acting" the kiss but that's completely misconstruing the point I was trying to get across. I'm sure you didn't deliberately do it but you did misunderstand the meaning of my post in it's entirety.

In essence, you took a stance against a point that didn't even exist in the first place (which I even later said was misinterpreted.) The parts you didn't quote contained the actual point. Hence, taking it out of context. Now I hope we can move on from this because I'm not fond of arguing semantics.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
The problem I have with Alto "acting" outside of a real acting gig is that this isn't supported by any hard source. Yasaburo saying it so does not make it credible, because Yasaburo has ulterior motives. We certainly never see Alto acknowledging this as a fact, instead we have him angrily denying it throughout the series. Show me a quote by Alto that he was acting, instead of being genuine ( and no, him saying that he was ignoring that both girls were showing feelings towards him doesn't count... that's just playing dumb, not playacting genuine emotions ). Otherwise you are just as blindly opinionating about Altos motivations as Yasaburo was.
Isn't that the point? The quote from Karice strongly points to the "acting" theory although it can't really be proven. The mysterious aura surrounding Alto is what makes him such a compelling character, because we don't know when he truly feels a certain way or whether his motives are genuine or not. His past and his issues with it can somehow help the case but it can't be proven with absolute certainty. Just because Alto disapproves of this interpretation does not mean it's not true.

It's a lot harder for someone to accept a truth about themselves. And in that same token, it's just as easy for someone to falsely judge another. I believe this was the point that Kawamori was alluding to in Karice's earlier post.

"Absence of proof, is not proof of absence."

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Yeah, she took it seriously. In the very next episode, we'll see her getting all blush-faced after her conversation with Nanase. As pointed out by Dash_Hunter.
In which I apologized for making that mistake

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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Ah, you're right! My mistake, I must apologize to Magnus then for getting that wrong. Thank you for pointing that out. I completely forgot about it.
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I've never seen you express the sentiment that Alto was getting lost in his acting roles and unsure of his own personality before the movie came out. I've never seen anyone express that opinion before the movie came out. This collating of the motivations of movie Alto with series Alto is not flying with me, because it is as ludicrous as trying to say that movie Ranka is the same person as series Ranka.
If I remember correctly, I did mention something along those lines in an earlier discussion between you and I. It had to do with Alto's feelings for Sheryl I believe. It happened quite some time ago. Granted, I'm sure I didn't go into much detail but I was on the same train of thought.
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Old 2010-12-29, 20:27   Link #775
karice67
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I've never seen you express the sentiment that Alto was getting lost in his acting roles and unsure of his own personality before the movie came out. I've never seen anyone express that opinion before the movie came out. This collating of the motivations of movie Alto with series Alto is not flying with me, because it is as ludicrous as trying to say that movie Ranka is the same person as series Ranka.
Eto...well, I probably would have, if I'd listened to the commentary when it first came out. Though I wasn't even on the forum then (^_^;; )
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Old 2010-12-29, 20:28   Link #776
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Is it just me, or are the major moments of "Alto might feel the same about me!" that Ranka remembers/reacts to (at least two of them), scripted? Well, I'll talk about that further down the road, but it's worth pointing out that if anyone in the TV series has trouble with conflating reality with show biz, it's Ranka (mainly due to her innocence; it wasn't as if Grace and Leon were about to give her a crash course in show biz reality, and Elmo might have feared Ozma's wrath if he made Ranka too upset. And again, she wasn't around to watch her star fall the way Sheryl was when her CDs ended up in the dollar bins).

Alto, on the other hand, feels more like someone who just STOPPED acting in the beginning of the series. Less because of a hate of acting, but more because he wasn't allowed to develop his individual identity (individuality is, after all, the major theme of the show) when at home and on stage (when other boys were learning that girls don't have cooties, he was busy acting girl characters).

This is why he becomes so annoyed when Yasaburo calls his current persona cliché acting; Alto isn't acting, this is who Alto is, or what he's found so far that he is.

Which is also why he shows such numbness/uncertainty about how to respond to the girls. HE doesn't know himself yet, HE doesn't even know who he'll end up being a year from now, is it right for someone who doesn't know himself to take such an exclusive spot in someone else's life? (Assuming, of course, that they are monogamous on Frontier.) In fact, if he ends up in that spot and his personal growth goes in a way that might displease his girlfriend, he might end up acting out of habit as she wants her ideal boyfriend to act, which would be bad for both of them.

Which might be why he accepted the Star Date so easily. As far as he knew, he had a fun date with Sheryl, no strings attached, and that they would soon be on separate spaceships. Then it snowballed, and he gradually adjusted to that position instead.

In a way, all three of the triangle went through a "who am I?" phase. Alto's was perpetuated through the series until he found his calling to protect Frontier and how he thrived on responsibility. Ranka's kept changing through the entire series. Sheryl went into one at the betrayal of Grace and climbing back to the spotlight, reaffirming herself.

Anyway, back to the episode at hand. We even have the bridge bunnies wondering why Alto would give up a sterling acting career and become a fighter pilot, with Cathy mentioning that there are lots of reasons why people would do it.

On the Sheryl/Alto kiss, it seems like Sheryl was thinking "here goes all or nothing!". Then she chickened out when she could only detect shock in his reaction. I also like the snippet beforehand, when Alto says that he'll be fine with acting out a kiss, but that Ranka would probably not (as in, seeing it as a pro and an act, and we later get it confirmed that she had to force herself into a kiss, and then reads a lot more into it than it really was).

There is also a large contrast between the two kisses. Sheryl's could have been refused, backfired and her dismissal of it was flimsy and she was lucky that Alto didn't try to read more into it. Ranka ran no such risks, Alto was contracted to return her kiss, and no one would question it as they were, after all, supposed to kiss according to the script.

And on the topic of kisses, did they have to film Ranka kissing the actor portraying Shinn so that they could use some creative cutting to splice him in Alto's place? Or was it simply "stage kissing" when the lips are put close but not needed to touch?

Also Leon's Hawaiian shirt is hideously fabulous. You'd think for a megalomaniac he'd hire a better stylist (unless he was going for the Bunny Ears Lawyer effect).
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Old 2010-12-30, 05:23   Link #777
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I know what it means to take something out of context. The lines you quoted does make it sound like I was implying Alto was not "acting" the kiss but that's completely misconstruing the point I was trying to get across. I'm sure you didn't deliberately do it but you did misunderstand the meaning of my post in it's entirety.

In essence, you took a stance against a point that didn't even exist in the first place (which I even later said was misinterpreted.) The parts you didn't quote contained the actual point. Hence, taking it out of context. Now I hope we can move on from this because I'm not fond of arguing semantics.
You clearly don't, because you are wrong. You can say I misunderstood what you were saying, and I well may have. That's not the problem. Saying I took your quote out of context is to me, a college student of history, an insult. In my future profession it's malpractice to do so.

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Isn't that the point? The quote from Karice strongly points to the "acting" theory although it can't really be proven. The mysterious aura surrounding Alto is what makes him such a compelling character, because we don't know when he truly feels a certain way or whether his motives are genuine or not. His past and his issues with it can somehow help the case but it can't be proven with absolute certainty. Just because Alto disapproves of this interpretation does not mean it's not true.

It's a lot harder for someone to accept a truth about themselves. And in that same token, it's just as easy for someone to falsely judge another. I believe this was the point that Kawamori was alluding to in Karice's earlier post.

"Absence of proof, is not proof of absence."
Did you get that out of a fortune cookie?

You got no in-series confirmation of that, hell, not even a hint of Alto expressing such a sentiment. All you got is movie Alto saying so and you are trying to apply this wholesale to the other Alto.

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If I remember correctly, I did mention something along those lines in an earlier discussion between you and I. It had to do with Alto's feelings for Sheryl I believe. It happened quite some time ago. Granted, I'm sure I didn't go into much detail but I was on the same train of thought.
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Eto...well, I probably would have, if I'd listened to the commentary when it first came out. Though I wasn't even on the forum then (^_^;; )
Would have, should have, could have... nobody, in my recollection, did actually say so. If someone did, provide a quote. Until then, I stand by my assertion that this is just applying the movie characterization to another character.
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Old 2010-12-30, 05:49   Link #778
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Would have, should have, could have... nobody, in my recollection, did actually say so. If someone did, provide a quote. Until then, I stand by my assertion that this is just applying the movie characterization to another character.
I can't speak for others, but for me, I'm applying it because Kawamori said so in the commentary for episode 10, not because it was said in the movie. I wouldn't have bothered bringing it up if it was in the movie only. Just as I'm not bringing things from the novel into this discussion, even though they make perfect sense to me.

And know what? All it does for me is put the way I see Alto, and other characters both in Macross and in any other literary work, into words. As far as I can see, EVERYONE puts on a front to different people - I do it in real life, and I know that the people around me IRL do it too. Is it acting? I don't know, but it certainly isn't being completely honest about oneself.

It doesn't matter to me if you believe me or not. But just like I can't know precisely what's actually going on any character's head, because I'm not that character, you don't know how I think, so please don't try to label me as doing something I'm not.
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Old 2010-12-30, 06:17   Link #779
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I can't speak for others, but for me, I'm applying it because Kawamori said so in the commentary for episode 10, not because it was said in the movie. I wouldn't have bothered bringing it up if it was in the movie only. Just as I'm not bringing things from the novel into this discussion, even though they make perfect sense to me.
Okay, what you quoted was:

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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Whilst I should probably rewatch that scene again first, I'd probably agree with Yasaburo, especially given what Kawamori says in this episode's commentary regarding the original source for Alto's advice.

「秘すれば花なり 秘せずは花なるべからず」
(hi sureba hana ni nari, hi sezu ha hana narubekarazu)
- basically is advice for the actor to be mysterious, to hide something from the audience, because that will give the audience room to use their imagination to figure out a character's motivations by themselves. In doing so, you keep the audience's interest, because having everything spelled out for you really isn't fun.

With the above example, viewers are left pondering whether what Yasuburo says is true or not...and to me, it's seems to make sense, especially considering the advice Alto gives to Ranka in this episode.
I do not know how you read your conclusion out of that quote. Basically, from what you quoted, Kawamori is just re-citing what Alto told Ranka in ep 10. I cannot read at all out of this quote that Alto is constantly only acting his feelings, like Yasaburo claims.

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And know what? All it does for me is put the way I see Alto, and other characters both in Macross and in any other literary work, into words. As far as I can see, EVERYONE puts on a front to different people - I do it in real life, and I know that the people around me IRL do it too. Is it acting? I don't know, but it certainly isn't being completely honest about oneself.
Lets de-construct this:

- You say: Everybody is putting on a mask in daily life and not always saying what he really thinks ( Which is an assertion that is definitely true, otherwise civil society wouldn't function ).

- Yasaburo says: Alto is only acting out a role with his running off from home and being a pilot. He is not genuine in this but only playing a part, so he should come back home and return to acting.

These are two completely different things. Do you honestly think Alto would have flipped his lid the way he did, because Yasaburo was telling him "Oh, btw., you are not always being truthful about what you want to say"?

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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
It doesn't matter to me if you believe me or not. But just like I can't know precisely what's actually going on any character's head, because I'm not that character, you don't know how I think, so please don't try to label me as doing something I'm not.
Given the the majority of my reply was addressed to Dex. I think you are taking the parts which were thought for him as if directed to you. I put your line into the final quote, because it did pertain to the larger point I was making, which is that nobody during the show or before the movie put this character-view of Alto on the table, it has only surfaced now and is, IMO unjustifiedly, being conflated with series Altos motivations.
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Old 2010-12-30, 06:42   Link #780
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Okay, what you quoted was:
I do not know how you read your conclusion out of that quote. Basically, from what you quoted, Kawamori is just re-citing what Alto told Ranka in ep 10. I cannot read at all out of this quote that Alto is constantly only acting his feelings, like Yasaburo claims.
I explained this here.

As for what Kawamori said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
The "Acting or not" issue comes up from 4:18 (when Ranka is talking to Alto on the phone)
Nakajima: It often slips my mind that Alto was in the acting world.
Kawamori: You know, he might be acting all the time...
Endou: No, don't say that!
(Kawamori laughs)
Endou: come on tell us! when is he acting?!
Kawamori: Well, even Alto himself sometimes doesn't know when he's acting and when he's not, that's why he's afraid of being in the acting world.
------though that's also true of actors in our world.
Endou: Characters similar to oneself are the most difficult to do (in some ways)
Kawamori: It's like 'where does the role end and you start?'
Endou: Are you creating something or not? It's hard to know
===

3rd point: no comment, as I still haven't watched episode 11 again. I was talking about my general impression of Alto.

===

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Given the the majority of my reply was addressed to Dex. I think you are taking the parts which were thought for him as if directed to you. I put your line into the final quote, because it did pertain to the larger point I was making, which is that nobody during the show or before the movie put this character-view of Alto on the table, it has only surfaced now and is, IMO unjustifiedly, being conflated with series Altos motivations.
Because you quoted me there, it really felt like you were talking about my comment too. If not, then my mistake.
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