Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I agree that what Villetta did there was shitty. However, I consider it no worse than some of the BK's violent tendencies (I don't care that they've been oppressed for seven years, you do not use violence against students who are not a threat to you) or Cornelia's willingness to sacrifice hostages that are not Euphie. Even a likeable character like Rivalz will not stop to call an ambulance for people who've just been in a traffic accident because he does not want to be late to school, and while this is not nearly the same as what Villetta did, it's something worth thinking about. The average Britannian does not care much about strangers, and even a usually nice guy like Rivalz is inclined to not give a damn about some random person under the right circumstances.

Villetta was trying to catch a terrorist, and while her methods weren't at all awesome, telling her superiors that some Britannian student is able to control people's minds probably wouldn't have worked out too well even if she'd wanted to.

She was trying to do something legally justifiable, yes, but for purely selfish reasons. And unlike the BKs who at least had pristine motives and little other recourse of action, Villetta used a traumatized girl when she more than likely had other options open as was mentioned earlier.

This is definitely a valid point, though considering that she was not as emotionally involved as Rolo, she might not have been convinced.

It's still a failure of perspective on her part, if not one of impartiality.

True, but she still didn't know he wouldn't throw them (or the Black Knights - especially the Black Knights) away in an instant if he deemed it necessary.

Since when did she become concerned about loyalty?

Revenge is not that noble a cause - Lelouch's hatred probably made him seem all the more dangerous to Villetta. Wanting to protect himself and Nunnally (and make the world a better place) is something else entirely, but Villetta couldn't possibly understand his way of thinking completely, even if she could have figured some things out easily enough.

Also, turning against your country is one thing, but Lelouch killing Euphie (and even Clovis) is something Villetta would probably have found pretty unsettling.

Revenge was part of the equation, but only part of it. Lelouch genuinely wanted Britannia's social Darwinian construct eradicated from society beneath it all.

And killing Clovis, though unnecessary, wasn't necessarily unfounded. He did raze an entire civilian ghetto to cover up his ass. And Euphie was an accident, though I'm not sure how open she was to the possibility that Schneizel had either forged the audiotaped or quote mined Lelouch, the latter of which DID happen.

Well, she seemed to possess some amount of sympathy when she had her talk with Jeremiah in that one Sound Drama, and we don't know why she was so focused on getting a promotion - she was risking her own life, too. Maybe it was just for power, but seeing how CG isn't much for painting things black and white, there's a possibility she had other reasons - not that this is something really worth arguing, because, well, not much else in canon pointing towards that.

Perhaps, but she was still content to live with the status quo.

Why should she ask him when she didn't owe him anything, and when she could never trust his word completely? Maybe it's just me, but I thought she seemed rather creeped out by him half of the time (thought that could also be my memory playing tricks on me). Even if Lelouch's motives were completely noble and Villetta had believed him, Ougi would still have been risking his life, and Villetta is by far not the only character who'd do a lot of shit to keep a loved one safe.

Again, Villetta had been coerced because she was spying on him on Britannia's behalf. And now she squeals on him, rather inaccurately, on behalf of Ohgi? To get a little Gurren Lagann, who the hell does she think she is?

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by azul120

She was trying to do something legally justifiable, yes, but for purely selfish reasons. And unlike the BKs who at least had pristine motives and little other recourse of action, Villetta used a traumatized girl when she more than likely had other options open as was mentioned earlier.

I wouldn't say that all of the BK had "pristine motives", considering they couldn't expect to survive for long or make much of a difference in the beginning. Tamaki, for example, keeps being somewhat of an an ass, and although I find him quite entertaining and like him as a character, that scene at Ashford really says a lot to me.

It's still a failure of perspective on her part, if not one of impartiality.

I'm not saying Villetta is a great person, but neither do I believe she's evil incarnate.

Since when did she become concerned about loyalty?

Since Ougi's life was at stake, maybe?

Revenge was part of the equation, but only part of it. Lelouch genuinely wanted Britannia's social Darwinian construct eradicated from society beneath it all.

How was Villetta supposed to know that?

And killing Clovis, though unnecessary, wasn't necessarily unfounded. He did raze an entire civilian ghetto to cover up his ass.

Lelouch still killed his own brother with whom he grew up, so Villetta would probably be a bit concerned.

And Euphie was an accident, though I'm not sure how open she was to the possibility that Schneizel had either forged the audiotaped or quote mined Lelouch, the latter of which DID happen.

Hm, did she even listen to the tape before going to Ougi with her claims about Lelouch? Either way, for all Villetta knew, Lelouch made Euphie murder countless people and then shot her to further his own goals.

Perhaps, but she was still content to live with the status quo.

Not denying that.

Again, Villetta had been coerced because she was spying on him on Britannia's behalf. And now she squeals on him, rather inaccurately, on behalf of Ohgi? To get a little Gurren Lagann, who the hell does she think she is?

She obviously cares about Ougi enough to betray her own country despite having been part of the purist fraction, so why shouldn't she screw over Lelouch to keep him safe?

[Kittenlady]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I wouldn't say that all of the BK had "pristine motives", considering they couldn't expect to survive for long or make much of a difference in the beginning. Tamaki, for example, keeps being somewhat of an an ass, and although I find him quite entertaining and like him as a character, that scene at Ashford really says a lot to me.

Urgh, this. I swear the only reason they were fighting in the first place was pride. Anyone with half a brain could tell they didn't have a chance against an Empire that owns a third of the world. And I still have no idea what exactly they were trying to accomplish in that first episode. It wasn't even till Lelouch came along that they stopped using tactics that targeted civilians.

Again, I like them (till the end of R2), but it irritates me how so many people are all "Awww, poor victimised little innocent terrorists". They were hardly saints.

[Knightrunner]

Villetta overated as much as Ougi. These two get the hightest positions in Japan through sheer luck and stupidity. Villetta actions are believable since she was against Lelouch in the beggining so she owes nothing for him. We all know she is one of the villians ever since the first episode when she happily killed innocent Japanese civilians. I think most people hate her because karma didn't bite her in the rear and reward with one of the highest positions in Japan like Ougi.

Her actions makes sense because it was within her characters scope, but the other black knight members behaved like retarded monkeys trusting everything Schneizel said.

[azul120]

Saying she's against Lelouch is one thing, but for what reason was she still against him when she went over on Ohgi's behalf? They both knew the Sayoko spy incident and Villetta's subsequent imprisonment was all Diethard's doing anyways.

Besides, her being that worried about Ohgi doesn't make any sense, knowing that Lelouch couldn't just use geass out of the blue and reveal that he had regained his memories. In other words, she was being purely contrarian. Not to mention that she drew first blood by spying on Lelouch in the first place.

I'm not saying she's evil, but she is still rather petty and selfish, and deservedly falls under Spanner In The Works, if not Swiss Messenger, as her acts would lead Lelouch down the Zero Requiem path.

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

Her actions makes sense because it was within her characters scope, but the other black knight members behaved like retarded monkeys trusting everything Schneizel said.

I can agree with the Villetta discussion, but I also agree that the Black Knights were sorta being..... "dim-witted" when it came to being told all this information about Lelouch from Schneizel

I mean, they could have not believed everything Schneizel said until he brought out that tape recorder of his from Lelouch/Suzaku's discussion, where Lelouch admits everything that he did.

But in that year of technology, they could have probably thought that it was "altered" to sound like Lelouch/Zero?

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Hooves

I can agree with the Villetta discussion, but I also agree that the Black Knights were sorta being..... "dim-witted" when it came to being told all this information about Lelouch from Schneizel

I mean, they could have not believed everything Schneizel said until he brought out that tape recorder of his from Lelouch/Suzaku's discussion, where Lelouch admits everything that he did.

But in that year of technology, they could have probably thought that it was "altered" to sound like Lelouch/Zero?

Not to mention of course that Schneizel had quote mined Lelouch (the part where Suzaku calls Lelouch out for lying is left out).

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by azul120

Not to mention of course that Schneizel had quote mined Lelouch (the part where Suzaku calls Lelouch out for lying is left out).

That was where I found out Schneizel was just out for power, after over-throwing Lelouch by making the Black Knights dis-believe him no matter what the cost, trying to put up this "innocent" big brother act, he would have no opposing force that would deny him to his ascension of trying to lead the world to a better "Future"

But that was when Lelouch made the biggest counter

[Aquaman OS]

Lelouch is also at fault for not even attempting to defend himself. Granted I know it was because he decided he didn't want to live anymore and didn't feel like going against Schnizel but still.

If he had said something like "I'm sorry you all feel that way but I really didn't mean any harm, sorry about Asahina btw, can't we put the guns down and talk?" then although he still might have been screwed he might have stalled enough for a better situation to develop (granted however, if he did that then nobody would have been able to stop Charles a few hours later)

However he just says "Mwahaha, yep I played you suckers like harps from hell, shoot me please" which of course pisses the BK enough to try to kill him right there.

So some of the blame falls on Lelouch for not even attempting to do anything about the betrayal. Granted one of Lelouch's greatest flaws is that he never ever attempts to defend his actions ever, even when he really isn't at fault.

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Lelouch is also at fault for not even attempting to defend himself. Granted I know it was because he decided he didn't want to live anymore and didn't feel like going against Schnizel but still.

If he had said something like "I'm sorry you all feel that way but I really didn't mean any harm, sorry about Asahina btw, can't we put the guns down and talk?" then although he still might have been screwed he might have stalled enough for a better situation to develop (granted however, if he did that then nobody would have been able to stop Charles a few hours later)

However he just says "Mwahaha, yep I played you suckers like harps from hell, shoot me please" which of course pisses the BK enough to try to kill him right there.

So some of the blame falls on Lelouch for not even attempting to do anything about the betrayal. Granted one of Lelouch's greatest flaws is that he never ever attempts to defend his actions ever, even when he really isn't at fault.

Thats all true. Nobody would have stopped Charles then. The other reason why he said all that for Kallen wouldn't be in shooting range. Remember the black knights are willing to shoot through Kallen to hit Lelouch (which pisses also pissed me of about them). I guess nobody ever heard of stun guns before or knock out gas.

If Lelouch tried to apologize or give an explaination then both Kallen and him would be toasted.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Hooves

That was where I found out Schneizel was just out for power, after over-throwing Lelouch by making the Black Knights dis-believe him no matter what the cost, trying to put up this "innocent" big brother act, he would have no opposing force that would deny him to his ascension of trying to lead the world to a better "Future"

But that was when Lelouch made the biggest counter

The Zero Requiem? Not by a longshot. The Zero Requiem was a Downer Ending masquerading as Bittersweet.

[Aquaman OS]

Not really. After all the stuff Lelouch wound up doing and all the blood on his hands I don't think it could have ended any other way for him.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Not really. After all the stuff Lelouch wound up doing and all the blood on his hands I don't think it could have ended any other way for him.

It would have ended better if not for the betrayal (on top of Nunnally's apparent demise) and his subsequent Despair Event Horizon jumping. The Zero Requiem was an excuse for him to die. Not to mention that it was bloodier than a more stable and less self-sacrificial solution.

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

However he just says "Mwahaha, yep I played you suckers like harps from hell, shoot me please" which of course pisses the BK enough to try to kill him right there.

The way you put that, its somewhat funny

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

Thats all true. Nobody would have stopped Charles then. The other reason why he said all that for Kallen wouldn't be in shooting range. Remember the black knights are willing to shoot through Kallen to hit Lelouch (which pisses also pissed me of about them). I guess nobody ever heard of stun guns before or knock out gas.

If Lelouch tried to apologize or give an explaination then both Kallen and him would be toasted.

This is true, since the Black Knights were in so much dissaray, since they have been following orders from a Prince of Britannia, that they felt they could not trust Lelouch no matter what he said. Even if he said something like an apology, they would think he was lying trying to save his own skin. Killing both Kallen and Lelouch.

Lelouch was actually nice enough to try to get Kallen away from him so she wouldn't die in the process of his own mistakes, and the reason he did not try to apologize was because he felt he was already "defeated" by his older brother, so he felt that there was nothing else for him to do in that situation.

[azul120]

Ex-prince of Britannia, and thus very likely to have as much of a beef with Britannia. Important difference.

[Kittenlady]

^ Yeah, I loved how the BK never wondered or asked why a Prince of Britannia would do all this rebellion shit. I can understand why Schneizel left that part out, but the BK should've at least asked.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by azul120

It would have ended better if not for the betrayal (on top of Nunnally's apparent demise) and his subsequent Despair Event Horizon jumping. The Zero Requiem was an excuse for him to die. Not to mention that it was bloodier than a more stable and less self-sacrificial solution.

Simply massacring the Geass Order (researchers and children for the most part) in a hissy fit, was enough to require him to die. Nevermind the Euphie incident, and what happened to Shirley (both of which were indirectly his fault) Otherwise he'd seem like a massive jackass for getting a happy life after slaughtering so many.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Simply massacring the Geass Order (researchers and children for the most part) in a hissy fit, was enough to require him to die. Nevermind the Euphie incident, and what happened to Shirley (both of which were indirectly his fault) Otherwise he'd seem like a massive jackass for getting a happy life after slaughtering so many.

In that case, what about the likes of Cornelia? Besides, he'd live on mostly in a life of servitude as either emperor or Zero.

[Master Knight DH]

Ever heard of hard labor sentences? I think one would have been adequate for Lelouch. Then again, I'm the same person who thinks a lifelong one would, if plausible, have sufficed for Light Yagami. Not execution or rotting away in a prison cell. Both would have wasted Light's talent and also tossed Kira's message to the wayside with less possibility of realizing that the Strawman Has A Point. Yeah, call me overly idealist if you want, I'd rather show I have an opinion contrary to what TV Tropes's administration basically claims.

And yes, Lelouch getting hard labor would be assuming the big 3 KHs are poetically punished.

[Aquaman OS]

Light was a devil in human form. A total sociopath with no ability to feel or care for other human beings. He deserved everything he got and more.

While I suppose Lelouch could have gotten off with a non lethal punishment, would he have accepted that himself?