Claymore Manga - Japanese Version

[Fenrir_valindri]

The opponent was not just "stronger then her" as you put it, it was like a god before an insect, anyone would express fear in the face of a being that much more powerful then you, especially in that situation.

We have already seen in the past, that Awakened Beings are no push overs, so it is doubtful that Audrey and Rachel have only fought ones that are only weaker then them, but it is even more unlikely they have faced anything even close to Riful's level before.

Even after Audrey realized that Rachel's attack wouldnt work on riful, she remained calm and attempted to exploit a weakness in a stronger opponent. They obviously realized Riful was powerful, but they did not realize just how out of their league they were, and Rachel (the stupid one) did not even realize it till she was impaled.

It is like comparing a bunch of children to a tank, the power difference is astounding.
It is not something as simple as Riful just being stronger then them, so they wet themselves, it was a hopeless situation, they were doomed as soon as Riful showed up, and they did not even realize it.

Remember, even Riful expected this sort of response out of them.

[Mord]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Clare had also peed herself back when she was infront of Priscilla, so you can never claim she has not, so she had been closer to a being even more powerful then Riful. As for Galatea, she is already one of the most cool-headed characters in the series, and she was not in Audrey's unique posistion of "I am about to get tentacle raped."

Completely different situations.

Clare was still a young human child at that point in time, and had just watch the only person she cared about in the world have her head cut off. She also watched Priscilla attack and apparently kill the other claymores before turning and walking towards her while talking about being hungry.

Audrey is the number 3 within the organization, she has in all likely hood fought numerous yoma and awakened beings. She knew that Riful was an abyssal one and still choose to go against her because she was cocky and overconfident in her abilities. Just by fighting along side Rachel, she thought that they would actually be able to take Riful out. The moment she realized Riful's real strength she froze in fear while Rachel was easily taken out.

[maian330]

You know, I have the feeling that the organization isn't just sending Miata and Clarice to find Galatea. The org isn't stupid - they know how unstable Miata is and how weak Clarice is. They probably have a handler and some other Claymores trailing after Miata.

[redmeat]

Clare had also peed herself back when she was infront of Priscilla, so you can never claim she has not, so she had been closer to a being even more powerful then Riful. As for Galatea, she is already one of the most cool-headed characters in the series, and she was not in Audrey's unique posistion of "I am about to get tentacle raped."

It's ridiculous to compare a child to an adult.

I promise you, a large majority of people who would not be considerered cowards, would piss themselves in that exact same situation, the thought of being tortured by one of the most powerful beings in the world for the express purpose of turning you into a monster and there is nothing you can do about it by the way, would have that affect on most people.

I would not throw the label "coward" on someone who would fight most awakened beings without blinking, it was not until she realized they were doomed (as in really, we are screwed) that she reacted the way she did.

They probably haven't encountered anyone stronger than themselves or they haven't been in extremely hopeless situations. When their egos shattered after realizing imminent defeat, they were just stunned from shock. They're noobs.

[chibamonster]

good point maian. What if this is just a testing mission sort of thing? That could be a really interesting twist. That or the organization has bad information. I wonder if Miata has a scent to distinguish Galatea. Because if not the organization probably said; "find a claymore dressed as a French maid".

As for Audrey, I think she will have a chance to prove herself in the future. I think it would be hard to be so strong and then face someone who was so much more powerful. Ilena was still scared of Priscilla because she knew she could never beat her. Priscilla certainly couldn't handle it when she fought Teresa.

Claymores do respond differently from one another which gives the story such good character development. Fear is a real thing for them. Undine panicked when she realized Pieta was a suicide mission. Helen cried when they fought the first male awakened and she was helpless. Oh how I love claymore. I think Audrey would like to help her saviors, but I don't think she is ready to leave the organization. Will Audrey be an ally or enemy next time?

[Bikerider]

What will the Organisation think when they get Audrey's report ? Maybe they were watching. Maybe the Awakened Being hunt was a Rifel trap and the Organisation knew that. Lots of things in the Claymore world happen in the shadows

[dxanato]

I am incline to believe that Audrey in some form will feel that she owe more to the fab 7. How she repaid it may not be in the sense she will join them but may miss lead the Organization about their encounter with Riful.

[Fenrir_valindri]

So the emotional tough child-clare who was helpless against Prisclla was not a valid comparison to the Claymore Audrey who was equally helpless against Riful?

Do not forget, Clare's childhood was not exactly kind, none of the Claymore's were kind, so its kind of silly to think any of them cowards. You could argue that Yuma was a coward because of how afraid she was of the first Awakened Being in Pieta. or the other Claymore's cowards when Ligardes tore apart all the high ranking Claymore's right infront of them, some even dropping their swords in a mixture of fear and despair.

My point is dont toss around the word coward when these people are facing creatures whose powers are far beyond the human ability to deal with, even if they are Claymores, they are still human. Even adult Clare was crying and shaking in fear when Ophelia was about to kill her.

[chibamonster]

Oh the organizations number 3's. Always seem to be on good terms with Clare (Ilena, Galatea, and now Audrey). 4's have been a little crazy (Ophelia and Miata although Noela or Sophia seemed pleasant as long as they weren't around each other). I don't think these things are patterns, just a fun observation. November seems a long ways away. Oh well, 2 more fun extra chapters to enjoy in the next few months.

[taelrak]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

So the emotional tough child-clare who was helpless against Prisclla was not a valid comparison to the Claymore Audrey who was equally helpless against Riful?

Do not forget, Clare's childhood was not exactly kind, none of the Claymore's were kind, so its kind of silly to think any of them cowards. You could argue that Yuma was a coward because of how afraid she was of the first Awakened Being in Pieta. or the other Claymore's cowards when Ligardes tore apart all the high ranking Claymore's right infront of them, some even dropping their swords in a mixture of fear and despair.

My point is dont toss around the word coward when these people are facing creatures whose powers are far beyond the human ability to deal with, even if they are Claymores, they are still human. Even adult Clare was crying and shaking in fear when Ophelia was about to kill her.

Oh I never said Clare wasn't a coward too . Her entire life was one of running away. Even she admitted it - she became a Claymore, partly for vengeance, partly to keep part of Teresa within her, but also because she simply didn't have the strength or courage to live on as she was. Furthermore, although I would say that most people of Clare's age when Teresa was killed simply don't have enough awareness and discipline over themselves for one to judge them, Clare, after having suffered for so long, definitely had enough of a mature mentality to be so judged - and she was definitely wanting. She does have redeeming features, even in her decisions and the path she chose to follow later, that are admirable though.

I also wouldn't say Yuma was a coward because she didn't back down from her fight (she was incapacitated against her will). However, those Claymore that dropped their swords in fear and despair are utterly worthless.

It's perfectly normal to feel fear and despair in situations where prevailing is all but impossible. But to let that fear overwhelm one to the point of giving up, dropping your weapon in despair, pissing in your pants - such weakness is cowardice and nothing else.

It doesn't matter what they're facing - it's only relative to them that the comparison matters. Take real life situations when people face adversity, whether on the streets or elsewhere - people have and still do maintain dignity, composure and resolve even when facing impossible odds.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I always considered Irene #2, as per her orginal rank, because later on when Clare meets Irene she referes to Priscilla as, "The one slated to be the new #2",
so I dont think Priscilla's promotion was official yet.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

I always considered Irene #2, as per her orginal rank, because later on when Clare meets Irene she referes to Priscilla as, "The one slated to be the new #2",
so I dont think Priscilla's promotion was official yet.

Pretty sure it was official. In fact I think she demoted herself in front of Sophia and Noel, and demoted them as well.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Well Clare did look up the information herself, it is possible Irene was just giving Noel and Sophia forwarning, Irene did seem to be incharge of that operation, and we already know the highest # is the one who leads.

[Bikerider]

After looking closely at the graveyard of claymores of vol 12, pg 68-69, I can see that two of the claymores who first went after Teresa in vol 4 were casualties in the war of the north.
symbols

v|v

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>|<

These were the same two I thought were Galatea and Veronica.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Oh I never said Clare wasn't a coward too . Her entire life was one of running away. Even she admitted it - she became a Claymore, partly for vengeance, partly to keep part of Teresa within her, but also because she simply didn't have the strength or courage to live on as she was. Furthermore, although I would say that most people of Clare's age when Teresa was killed simply don't have enough awareness and discipline over themselves for one to judge them, Clare, after having suffered for so long, definitely had enough of a mature mentality to be so judged - and she was definitely wanting. She does have redeeming features, even in her decisions and the path she chose to follow later, that are admirable though.

A good example

I also wouldn't say Yuma was a coward because she didn't back down from her fight (she was incapacitated against her will). However, those Claymore that dropped their swords in fear and despair are utterly worthless.

We cannot really tell how the fight went, so I will just leave this one alone.
Although Yuma needs some more confidence in herself

It's perfectly normal to feel fear and despair in situations where prevailing is all but impossible. But to let that fear overwhelm one to the point of giving up, dropping your weapon in despair, pissing in your pants - such weakness is cowardice and nothing else.

Fear and Despair are some of the strongest emotions that can enter a persons heart, a Coward is someone who was not even willing to fight in the first place.

It doesn't matter what they're facing - it's only relative to them that the comparison matters. Take real life situations when people face adversity, whether on the streets or elsewhere - people have and still do maintain dignity, composure and resolve even when facing impossible odds.

This is how I see it;

Brave; Sometimes called "fearless" or "Immensely Composed" too dignified to lose composure. Galatea, Teresa, Miria, and Jean fall into this catagory. Some would consider these people crazy, and their reaction to harsh situations are often unrealistic when put into the human scope of things. I personally dont though, people like this are merely rare, and in a way, above the standards of most people

Tough; They give in to despair when broken, but are by no means cowards, and do not give up till the last minute, sometimes called stubborn. Clare, and Irene fall into this catagory, they lash out with all their might, but ultimately despair when faced with an overwhelming force.

Normal; or "Human", alot of people would fall into this catagory, including several of the ones you call cowards, Audrey falls into this catagory, as does Claris, and many of those who fell in the Northern Campaign. People who exhibit realistic reactions will fall into this catagory.

Coward; People too afraid to do anything that puts them at risk, would never be willing to be put into a life threatening situation.
No one we have seen so far in Claymore falls into this catagory, maybe some of the villagers.

Crazies; The people who may not even completely understand their situation. If they were overwhelmed, they would either lash out, or be paralyzed by fear. Prisclla, Ophelia, and Miata fall into this catagory.

My two cents.

[Prongs]

BBbbuuuutt Teresa itself aadddmmiit that she's afraid when sshhhee ffaaaacccee Prrriiscciiilia for tthhee first ttiiime. Warrior that twist an #1 AB's felt scared to an Amateur? ffeeeaaarr it's tthhee emotion tthhaat commonly iinn ttthhiis world. Even youma or Riful felt it ssooo dddoont caaall tthheem aass aa coowwaard. sob sob Poor Audreey.

(Prongs wet his pant. There an AB's in front of me aaaa help)

[redmeat]

Brave; Sometimes called "fearless" or "Immensely Composed" too dignified to lose composure. Galatea, Teresa, Miria, and Jean fall into this catagory. Some would consider these people crazy, and their reaction to harsh situations are often unrealistic when put into the human scope of things. I personally dont though, people like this are merely rare, and in a way, above the standards of most people

Tough; They give in to despair when broken, but are by no means cowards, and do not give up till the last minute, sometimes called stubborn. Clare, and Irene fall into this catagory, they lash out with all their might, but ultimately despair when faced with an overwhelming force.

Normal; or "Human", alot of people would fall into this catagory, including several of the ones you call cowards, Audrey falls into this catagory, as does Claris, and many of those who fell in the Northern Campaign. People who exhibit realistic reactions will fall into this catagory.

Coward; People too afraid to do anything that puts them at risk, would never be willing to be put into a life threatening situation.
No one we have seen so far in Claymore falls into this catagory, maybe some of the villagers.

Crazies; The people who may not even completely understand their situation. If they were overwhelmed, they would either lash out, or be paralyzed by fear. Prisclla, Ophelia, and Miata fall into this catagory.

Now that's an oversimplification of claymore/human psyche. There are a lot of factors involved (like life experience). Being brave is not necessarily stubborn (even under human conditions) and it's not rare either. Just look up some history. Most if not all Claymores will likely experience all of the above at one time or another given the correct circumstances.

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by Prongs

BBbbuuuutt Teresa itself aadddmmiit that she's afraid when sshhhee ffaaaacccee Prrriiscciiilia for tthhee first ttiiime. Warrior that twist an #1 AB's felt scared to an Amateur? ffeeeaaarr it's tthhee emotion tthhaat commonly iinn ttthhiis world. Even youma or Riful felt it ssooo dddoont caaall tthheem aass aa coowwaard. sob sob Poor Audreey.

(Prongs wet his pant. There an AB's in front of me aaaa help)

Stop writing this heresy ! Teresa was surprised not scared, she easily obliterated awakened former #1, and Priscilla's human form was much much weaker, even when she sensed that Priscilla hides a monster in her that didn't scare her, rather startled because she had never faced an opponent with such potential.



As for that coward thing, I agree with taelrak, Audrey was a coward.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

I promise you, a large majority of people who would not be considerered cowards, would piss themselves in that exact same situation, the thought of being tortured by one of the most powerful beings in the world for the express purpose of turning you into a monster and there is nothing you can do about it by the way, would have that affect on most people.

"Would not be considered", but in a despair situation when they would piss themselves, they would. It's normal I agree but it is cowardice. When adrenaline rises up someone can run off or stay and fight. Audrey wanted to fight at first because she was sure she would beat the opponent but when faced reality she revealed her true face of a coward (as taelrak rightly noticed).

[half_awake]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Brave; Sometimes called "fearless" or "Immensely Composed" too dignified to lose composure. Galatea, Teresa, Miria, and Jean fall into this catagory. Some would consider these people crazy, and their reaction to harsh situations are often unrealistic when put into the human scope of things. I personally dont though, people like this are merely rare, and in a way, above the standards of most people

Tough; They give in to despair when broken, but are by no means cowards, and do not give up till the last minute, sometimes called stubborn. Clare, and Irene fall into this catagory, they lash out with all their might, but ultimately despair when faced with an overwhelming force.

Normal; or "Human", alot of people would fall into this catagory, including several of the ones you call cowards, Audrey falls into this catagory, as does Claris, and many of those who fell in the Northern Campaign. People who exhibit realistic reactions will fall into this catagory.

Coward; People too afraid to do anything that puts them at risk, would never be willing to be put into a life threatening situation.
No one we have seen so far in Claymore falls into this catagory, maybe some of the villagers.

Crazies; The people who may not even completely understand their situation. If they were overwhelmed, they would either lash out, or be paralyzed by fear. Prisclla, Ophelia, and Miata fall into this catagory.

Claymores aren't human, they are trained yoma killers with superhuman skills and strength. But putting that aside...

Audrey was NUMBER 3. #3! You would hope that a Claymore of this supposed caliber would fight until the end and further, save her colleagues in the interim.

Galatea (a true #3) took on Duph alone DESPITE knowing Riful was and AO... she was therefore aware that if by some stroke of luck she defeated Duph, there was the possibilty of being left alone to deal with Riful. In spite of this, she planned ahead, sent away her only backup (albeit a weak Clare), and took care of business.

Ilena (a true #3, if not #2) continued to fight Teresa even when it was clear that Teresa could mop the floor with her whole crew. She continued to plan and adapt depite the odds. Further, when Priscilla awakened, Ilena continued to make an effort - KNOWING she had virtually no chance of survival, much less victory.

Other comparisons:

Miria (#6) - by her own admission, significantly weaker than the Claymores above her. When she was up against a male AB and her allies (Clare, Helen, Deneve) were all injured, she pushed herself to the absolute limits in an effort to save herself AND her colleagues.

Jean (#9) - even restrained with multiple rods plowed through her stomach, agains one AB and an AO, she STILL had the wherewithall to remain calm... calm enough to try and talk her comrades down from awakening while she herself was being tortured.

Miata (#4) - totally crazy, no question, but still able to remain calm enough to take out a yoma just above Clarice's shoulder with the accuracy of a hawk. Once again... she planned enough to attend to not only her survival but the survival of those around her.

I mean, for god's sake, Clare - yes, a very strong Clare but nonetheless - stood alone in front of Riful and had a discussion with her. Openly conversed with her! Forget about shaking in her boots or losing her precious bodily fluids!

Say what you like about the semantics, my original point was that Audrey, as an ally against the level of ABs/AOs now prevalent in the series, would be worthless. If everyone else was injured, you'd have no faith in her under duress. At the ABSOLUTE BEST she is unworthy of her rank. And this is being generous.

[half_awake]

BTW I just read over the last chapter when Miata went nutty on those yoma... man, that @#$%^ is CRAZY!