2009-12-07, 18:11 | Link #3961 | |||
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Join Date: Nov 2009
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Also, we can't be sure that the second bottle washing up on shore might not be staged in some way - perhaps the writer simply took a boat out off the coast, dumped the bottle, and let the tide do it's work, rather than let the bottle drift all the way from Rokkenjima. Quote:
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2009-12-07, 18:38 | Link #3962 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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As far as remembering, it's plainly obvious she wants him to remember by himself. For example: A boy and a girl promise to meet at a restaurant. But the boy forgets and the girl ends up going alone. Now the girl has two choices: tell him off for not coming, or just wait for him to remember and apologize himself. Beatrice is doing the latter, since she is pretty fickle like that. And I'm not saying at all the human Beatrice is the culprit. However she could have been forced into confronting Battler: especially considering the entire way she was acting crazy but then suddenly became mellow, you can say she was maybe being forced to talk like that until the sin part came up. There are no more than 17 people on the island. This applies to all games. But dead people do not count towards the total count, hence why Kinzo was eliminated. Beatrice arrives after the first twilight or even a while after that. It's not impossible at all, considering how quickly the murders were perpetrated. As far as how she got to the island is a mystery, but she could have easily come to it in a similar matter as Erika had. |
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2009-12-07, 19:40 | Link #3963 | |
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But in ep2, she appears (you can argue she isn't really there, but if you do you're shooting yourself in the foot) on the 4th. No one is dead at this point. All six people who will die by the next morning are seen again repeatedly by other people. She cannot be present at this time if she is a 19th person. In ep4, it's possible someone is already dead when Beatrice appears to Battler. However, consider the possibility that no one is dead when Battler confronts Beatrice. George's death was faked, and Battler has not seen anyone else's corpse at this point. Now what? She could very well once again be Person #19. And she never shows up on the 5th, the time you say she "could" show up and not violate the rules. So you're asking me to believe there's a 19th Person X (which red, Knox, and just about everything else forbids) who isn't supposed to be able to be on the island, and whose only appearances directly contradict the logic that would theoretically allow an outsider to be present. This is ridiculous. It's insane. |
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2009-12-07, 20:01 | Link #3964 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2009
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There are no more than 17 people on the island. This applies to all games. What's really bugging me here is that there's no sense of time-specificity - a small add on to this statement will change the entire tone of it. For example, we could tighten this statement up by saying: There are no more than 17 people on the island at any given time. This seems to be the way we are supposed to take the statement, yet Beato does not out and state it in the red. If there is any additional qualifiers to this statement then things can twist quite considerably. Consider some slightly different amendments: There are no more than 17 people on the island at the start of Beatrice's "game". There are no more than 17 people on the island at X time on the first day. (say, before the typhoon sets in) There are no more than 17 people on the island at the end of each day. All three of these allow Beatrice to show up on the first day of the family conference, and dodge the typhoon, and stay within the bounds of the red, by timing her arrival appropriately. It could be argued that the "game" starts at different times in each episode as well. (You could make a case that the receipt of Beatrice's letter at dinner is the start of the game; but if I recall correctly there was no letter in Episode 4). Likely this may simply be splitting hairs but that seems the only way that we can support an actual Beatrice not disguised as one of the characters. |
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2009-12-07, 21:08 | Link #3965 | |
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In ep4, I believe we're told there are no more than 18 people at the start of the 1986 events. While it's true the red probably is context-sensitive and refers only to the max number of people at any given time (Beatrice will say < 18 after some people have died e.g.), it would be a stupid narrative dodge that I believe has been outright destroyed with the "no person x exists" red. As Beatrice has said, if you add one person coming in when someone dies, you add more. Where does it end? But my point remains: Pieces on the game board cannot be aware of the red text. Therefore, any real-Beatrice has to arrive when the rules don't forbid her purely by coincidence and she has to do this every game or she breaks the rules and that can't happen. You require one of two scenarios: 1) Beatrice just happens to arrive when someone has already died. Outright disproven in at least two episodes where, if she arrived when she appeared to every episode, she would be guaranteed to violate the headcount rule (even if she doesn't violate it in THAT episode). Again, I want to stress this: Beatrice has no logical reason to show up at different times (except the scenario I post below) in different games. Therefore if she arrived on the island in ep3 the same time she arrived in ep4, she would violate the red. 2) Beatrice is waiting somewhere off the island and gets radioed or something by a person on the island after the First Twilight (or first killings) and informed she can come to the island. This is so ridiculous it's not even worth discussing but let's discuss some consequences of this: Only Nanjo can be doing it, it implies the First Twilight will always happen even though it always happens differently, it makes no sense why she would need to wait except because of the red text. It's not happening. "Beatrice is a real person disguised as Kumasawa" is more logical than an independent Beatrice showing up at some point, and you probably know how much contempt I have for that theory. |
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2009-12-07, 21:27 | Link #3966 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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The problem is that the only time I can recall Battler hunting for clues is at the end of Ep4. Quote:
We have no proof that someone dying during the game changes the count at all. That is, dead people might still count as people as long as they aren't dead at the start of the game. Not only that, it's against the spirit of the game to begin with, like I keep saying... Battler has to suspect one of his relatives, because they're murderers. |
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2009-12-07, 22:11 | Link #3967 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: a better place than here
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The game starts when the typhoon hits. Before that, at least parts of the first twilight have occured, and somebody has since radioed Beatrice in. How the hell could 6 grown adults be overpowered all at the same time by one single person? |
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2009-12-07, 22:24 | Link #3969 | |
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 35
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2009-12-07, 23:17 | Link #3971 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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There's a huge discrepancy between the opening scene of Ep1 and how Nanjo describes Kinzo's death in Ep5, as I recall. Since I believe that the first scene isn't a fake one, it logically follows that Nanjo is lying in Ep5... and, as always, the question is "why". Of course, he himself could have been lying to Kinzo about the disease to begin with, perhaps hoping that Kinzo would "give up and die"... Were the adults eating during their conference, I wonder? |
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2009-12-07, 23:27 | Link #3972 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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I don't know if Nanjo did it but he's definitely suspicious. A good question then is why did Beatrice refuse to repeat "The 6 were all killed by other people"? I'm not sure but we know at that point in the game Kinzo's status was still a mystery.
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2009-12-07, 23:37 | Link #3973 |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Why would Nanjo kill Kinzo, they're best friends. If Nanjo was just hanging around for money I think Kinzo would catch on, considering his experience. As far as a disease goes he could have just been saying that so the other adults wouldn't be suspicious about it - they knew he was dying but didn't know how long it would take, since Nanjo's estimations were lies as well. After all the entire reason they lied about Kinzo being alive was to hold out until Krauss earned enough money back and then declare Kinzo dead and not get evicted from the island.
Also I don't like the idea that George's death was faked. Not to mention that after Battler meets with Beato with his test he goes to the chapel to get the master keys. Then he immediately goes back to the mansion and finds the first twilight victims dead in the dining room, along with Maria's corpse. I hardly believe that six people were killed in such a quick succession. Plus the entire "George faked his death" doesn't make sense to me - Battler clearly saw a hole in George's head and noticed his eyes were opened and rain was falling on them. My argument is this: a third Beatrice DOES exist, but she is not the culprit. She doesn't exist in EP 2, but she does exist in EP 4. Ryukishi mentioned a dirty trick being used after all. |
2009-12-07, 23:40 | Link #3974 | |
Kupo
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 32
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Perhaps a gradual slip of some sort of organ-damaging poison in his absinthe? Wouldn't be too hard to hide really anything in a drink like that.
Then again absinthe itself is kind of an organ-damaging poison . Quote:
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2009-12-08, 00:20 | Link #3975 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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If Kinzo is as twisted and insane as he's presented, he may have either a) not have noticed that Nanjo wanted a share of the inheritance or b) simply not cared. As for why Nanjo wanted money... well, didn't he have a sick grandchild that needed some kind of expensive, special treatment? The dirty, "venomous" trick, which I believe is the same as his 'trap', is in Ep5, and was originally supposed to be in Ep3... It seems too... easy to be a trick like that. I think the trick/trap is something we've all overlooked. Something deviously simple. Something we've taken for granted. The best mysteries are like this. Quote:
Then that's easy. Simply put an overdose of some drug into the tea, wait for the effects to kick in, take them all to the shed, and tear off their faces. This would imply that it's one of the servants doing this, since the adults only wind up dead when all the servants are still alive after the first twilight... and the servants were the ones to serve them the tea, I'd assume... |
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2009-12-08, 00:46 | Link #3976 | ||
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There's also no indication of when the games start, but it must be early on the 4th, as events are different between games and it's been stated that things which happen before or after the game starts/ends cannot be changed. Quote:
(But he'd still have to fake a wound very convincingly, say as well as Shannon appearing dead in ep1, probably better since Battler gets to see him) |
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2009-12-08, 01:02 | Link #3978 | |
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All I'm saying is it's possible no one is dead. I don't think it's likely. But if someone is dead, you'd have to explain how a human Beatrice knew this in time to show up early and meet Battler. A disguised person isn't a problem, really. Also if George is dead, Battler finds nine corpses a little earlier, not that it matters that much. |
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2009-12-08, 01:57 | Link #3979 | ||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Do you really think that a 16 years old girl fell of a ship in her bathing suit in the middle of a hurricane and managed to survive in the cold waters of October for who knows many nautical miles drifting to Rokkenjima? Even when Kawabata expressively said that it is absolutely impossible for a boat to travel in such conditions? There is absolutely no red that confirms Erika's story, and her character is fishy enough to warrant a good degree of skepticism. BTW Marion you base your idea that Beatrice must exists because of the Virgilia scene at the start of Ep3. However at the same time you completely discard the Ep2 scenes with suit Beatrice as fake. This is quite an arbitrary perspective imho. The Virigilia scene could be easily considered a metaphor expecially because there are no such things as witches and the vase didn't really restore itself. This scene can be very easily explained with Jessica as young Beato and Kumasawa as Virgilia. You'd have to think that metaphors are playing in this scene anyway. And about suit Beato being false I really disagree with this especially considering that Battler then sees her with his own eyes. Those scenes weren't fake, except for Beatrice restoring the candy which was probably an trick. It would be very lame if they were. Quote:
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The easiest explanation is that Kinzo died by natural death, I see little reasons to make conjectures about it. As for Nanjo, if none of those scenes are fake then yeah he lied, but it is easier to think he lied because Kinzo told him to never tell anyone about his conditions before his death.
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2009-12-08, 01:59 | Link #3980 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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People defended their beloved theories by throwing out the contexts out of the way...
---------------------------- Somehow I don't get the meaning of Jessica being the Beatrice Does it mean she was Maria's master? Does it mean she wrote the letters-in-the-bottle? Does it mean she sent the bank card and pin? Does it mean she wrote the pin on the door in EP3? Or she was none of the above except being Maria's master, by throwing all Ange's observations away? |
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