|
View Poll Results: Chuunibyou Demo Koi ga Shitai! - Episode 11 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 33 | 33.33% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 31 | 31.31% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 20 | 20.20% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 9 | 9.09% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 0 | 0% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 2 | 2.02% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 1 | 1.01% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 1 | 1.01% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 2 | 2.02% | |
Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll |
|
Thread Tools |
2012-12-14, 14:41 | Link #101 | |||||||
Senior Member
Author
|
Sure it is. This anime has delved into ways to make Rikka's club of practical value to the rest of the school while maintaining it as a safe outlet for chuunibyou acting out.
First there was the clean the pool idea. If the club members had managed to do that successfully, it would have put the club in a more positive light for the school. Then there is how Shinka used the club to help in a school festival. Remember the whole idea to have Yuuta and Rikka face each other in their chuunibyou personas as part of an entertaining act for other students? There are practical ways that you can have Rikka's club be useful to the rest of the school, while still maintaining it as a safe social situation for Rikka and friends to embrace their inner chuunibyou. Quote:
Quote:
With my idea, chuunibyou ("avoiding the Administration's detection") similarly becomes the motivation to learn to be normal. At a future point, once normalcy has netted Rikka some concrete benefits (such as new friends, better marks in school, etc...), you could switch to "See? There's more ways to be happy than just through chuunibyou. I think it's time, Rikka, that you truly accepted reality. I think your father would want that. I also think if he was here right now, he'd be proud of how far you've already come." I think that would be a better and more gradual approach than the crude, cold turkey one that Touka basically talked Yuuta into using. In any event, Rikka needs to give up on reaching her father in "The Unseen Horizon", yes. But that doesn't mean that the whole of her chuunibyou persona has to go with it. Quote:
And I already said that Rikka needs to learn that some social situations are inappropriate ones for acting out in a chuuni way. So I'm not sure why you're even raising a work situation. We agree on that. Quote:
Rikka would likely have struggled at Math with our without her chuunibyou. Math is one of the most talent/interest-based subjects there is. I can't think of any subject more polarizing than Math - Some students genuinely love it, and others can't stand it. Rikka is likely in the second group. If chuunibyou had such a disastrous impact on Rikka's school work, it should affect all subjects equally, not just Math disproportionately. I think it's much more logical to think that Rikka simply has a weakness at Math. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Rikka is not a weak person. She's stronger than some people are giving her credit for, I think
__________________
|
|||||||
2012-12-14, 15:06 | Link #102 | |||||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
|
Quote:
As far as it goes, Rikka's club had to undergo chores in order to have their teacher's good graces. Past that, the club doesn't contribute anything to their own members, except just for passing time together. Shinka was scouted by the drama club, which basically is more fitting to that kind of impersonating performance. Really, Rikka's club doesn't contribute anything nor in the specifc and general sense. Quote:
In fact, the "covert" method would actually give a proper reason for her to stay in such state, instead of moving forward, as "if acting a bit normal can justify the chuuni most of the time" would severely consolidate the chuuni aspect. It would absolutely require something that would offset her chuuni interest, to which require an actual change of perseption of reality, instead of faking a "normal behaviour". Quote:
The fact her chuunibyou origin was due to this incident tells a lot about how dear she holds that setup, to the point you cannot make her get over it without putting a dent on that setup. Otherwise, asking her to drop the chuuni act wouldn't affect her that much. It is exactly because she needs that to connect through her father "possible existence" that it is literally carved in her. She obviously can have some quirks, but the "chuunibyou" itself is really too taxing for her relatives and herself. Quote:
However, -if- she defines her chuunibyou in a complete different fashion (as in true fun without any underlying purpose, which can be turned off at will), that would be a different story. Her current chuunibyou is nowhere close to be that, because of the very nature and origin of her chuunibyou. That's why she ought to "change" or adopt another form of such eccentricity, or completely disconnect it from her longing for her father, the latter being extremely unlikely, unless if the purpose of her chuunibyou is overwhelmed by a different one, which could be tied to Yuuta. But so long it is exclusively tied with her father, no dice. Quote:
Generally speaking, such behaviour would be shared with people of the same interest in their own private space. Having a switch off only for the sake of appearance isn't going to cut it. The chuunibyou should actually be the "persona" to draw times to times not the other way around. Quote:
Quote:
Rikka however is highly dependant of people who are close to her, and should she can't stick with them (such like what happened to Touka), there will be major issues on the long run. Really, the chuuni cases aren't exactly a clear cut and is highly dependant of where it came from and how the said person deal with it, hence why Yuuta had far less issues to discard it than Rikka.
__________________
|
|||||||
2012-12-14, 15:50 | Link #103 | |||
Senior Member
Author
|
Uo
Quote:
The fact is that the anime found ways for Rikka's club to be productive. So there would have been no harm in Rikka's club continuing on, and providing a safe venue for Chuunibyou acting out. You are arguing from some sort of Japanese student club ideal that even anime shows as serious as Hyouka don't seem to subscribe to. Why hold Chuunibyou to a higher standard than the vast majority of other high school anime out there? Quote:
Quote:
And isn't it better if Rikka's maturation into a well-adjusted adult comes from within her, and on the basis of her own evolving longings and desires, than through some sort of strict social conformity forced on her by her sister and boyfriend? I think you're being overly strict and severe in your assessment of Rikka and what's good for her. She clearly isn't happy in this episode. I think it's pretty clear that the anime is showing how Yuuta and Touka's approach has caused Rikka to go from one unhealthy extreme to another. No, a more moderate approach would be better, and I think that's precisely what we're going to see next episode. We've now seen what your "scrap chuunibyou" approach would do to Rikka, and it's not a pretty picture. Far, far from it. Look, Rikka is going to move on from her father's death at some point. It's inevitable. She'll find other people to love and care for, and other people will love and care for her (and in fact, Rikka has already done this). Her father may always be an important part of her life and sense of self, but as long as Rikka finds other people to have strong bonds with, the effect of her father's passing will gradually decline in time. And that means that chuunibyou can become a fine and safe way for Rikka to find fun, enjoyment, and pleasantness in life. That's not something that should be taken away from her. Also, I have to say, I'm facepalming hard at the alocholism and heroine comparisons. Good grief, guys. Seriously...
__________________
|
|||
2012-12-14, 16:17 | Link #104 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
|
Quote:
Quote:
I am not suggesting that Rikka has to become completely normal. What I am suggesting is that Rikka gives up her unique chunnibiyou fantasy of the Unseen Horizon. You don't seem to understand that right now Rikka's fantasies and the Unseen Horizon with her father come together and have been for this entire series, and however many years that is in the series. The "Unseen Horizon" has to go, and her friends have to help to make sure it goes. Perhaps they don't have to force it down her throat the way Touka does and can be more subtle in challenging Rikka like how Nana-chan does it, but they can't keep blindly encouraging that belief. Once the Unseen Horizon is gone, then Rikka can have all the fun she wants with her friends. |
||
2012-12-14, 17:09 | Link #105 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
This is an anime where I really wish I knew how the domestic Japanese audience would interpret what's going on. I'm no expert on Japan, but from what I gather, Rikka's behavior is seriously NOT okay by Japanese standards. Japanese teenagers have their ways of rebelling or acting out or whatever, but my impression is that they'll do that *outside* of school, but in school, they tend to wear the uniform and not act out the way Rikka does. In other words, in a young part of Tokyo, you'll see teenagers in outlandish outfits, but during school, they'll be back in their uniform obeying their teachers, after blowing off some steam on the weekends. Indeed, I think Rikka's outright defiance of her elders would look very, very off--simply answering a teacher's questions while "in character" would by itself look defiant.
Again, this is more a gut reaction on my part to what I know of Japan, but I don't think it's unreasonable. However, anime has frequently subverted a lot of the "normal" rules by which Japanese society actually works, and before the recent drama, we see a school where Rikka's behavior is more or less tolerated, even accepted. And this series subverts other "normal" rules in all sorts of ways--vast amounts of comic violence, Touka's "adult" games of house, how Yuuta's mother acts, etc. But we see the real world come back, with a vengeance in the last few episodes. Suddenly the rules seem to have changed, and hence Yuuta has a 180 degree course correction. I quite frankly don't know if this is a brilliant move on the show--questioning some of the basic premises of anime as a genre, that there can be this alternate Japanese universe filled with extraordinarily independent teenagers, adult authority nowhere to be found, and all sorts of even more supernatural phenomena going on, feeding into that view, and then, showing, BAM!, that such a world can't so easily exist. Or is it just inconsistent writing? And coming back to my first point, how would a *Japanese* viewer see this series. And would there be a difference between a "regular" viewer and an otaku. |
2012-12-14, 17:52 | Link #106 | ||||
Senior Member
Author
|
Quote:
Furthermore, I think that Rikki found her coping mechanism to be enjoyable in and of itself. She found a lot of it simply "cool". That's why she fell for "Dark Flame Master", remember? This is something that I don't think you and Klash appreciate enough. Quote:
Quote:
We are now seeing what being denied chuunibyou has done to Rikka. There is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, in spite of what you and Klash (and possibly some others) are arguing. Quote:
__________________
|
||||
2012-12-14, 18:06 | Link #107 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
Quote:
And from one of the lite episodes, it's clear that not all of Rikka's teachers are so tolerant of her antics. |
|
2012-12-14, 18:09 | Link #108 | |
Senior Member
Author
|
Quote:
Also, that's not even technically in-class. That was when Rikka and her club met with a teacher outside of class hours.
__________________
|
|
2012-12-14, 18:23 | Link #109 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
Quote:
Indeed, knowing how downright cruel teenagers would be, the real problem would be her peers; in a real high school, American or Japanese, Rikka would be ostracized by her peers for being, well, crazy. And indeed, that's what happens to Rikka before she meets Yuuta. But in this alternate universe, it's okay, and it works out. Until the last two episodes, at least. And that's why I see the shift from comedy to drama as maybe just too large a river to bridge. |
|
2012-12-14, 18:26 | Link #110 |
Beyond the Fringe
Join Date: Jun 2011
|
If this is the only concrete example that you can come up with, then your claim that Rikka acts out in class is completely baseless. Of course, you're not the only one who has claimed that Rikka has acted out in class, but I don't remember anybody else giving a concrete example, either, so you're not alone there. I gotta agree with Triple_R in that that was played for laughs. I found it extremely funny. And I don't think Rikka would have done that with just any teacher. It seemed to me that that teacher was already predisposed to be understanding and tolerant of Rikka.
|
2012-12-14, 18:43 | Link #111 | |||
Senior Member
Author
|
Quote:
But Rikka's chuunibyou is probably not actively problematic enough for most of the teachers to really care about it. I think that Rikka is generally pretty careful about when and where she acts out. In-class, especially during teacher's lectures, she's probably just a very quiet girl. Quote:
The last episode has a hard job to do, imo. If Chuunibyou pulls it off well, I'll be very impressed. Quote:
__________________
|
|||
2012-12-14, 18:54 | Link #112 |
Beyond the Fringe
Join Date: Jun 2011
|
And it's not like she was being "defiant" in the way we would normally think of that term being applied to a high school student in relationship to a teacher, like so much of the behavior that has been portrayed in various anime series over the years. Gosh, aren't there series based on one or more of the students (if not all) in a particular classroom constantly acting rude, obnoxious, and even harassing, if not downright intimidating teachers? Does that sound like Rikka? Not from my perspective. Compared to many of those character types, Rikka seems like a quiet little lamb in class.
|
2012-12-14, 19:20 | Link #113 | ||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
|
Quote:
That's arguably nothing constructive towards students or the school as a whole. By the way: You are using a meta argument that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I never stated I took other anime any less seriously in term of student council stuff and clubs. In fact, very few are actually serious about that, and of course, chuunibyou doesn't portray a very realistic setup with Nana being okay with such "pointless" clubs. Really, you really have to think about the japanese culture and the purpose why such clubs are present and highly advertised even by the teacher staff in general. Quote:
The real core issue is how her problem is yet to be solved, and fixing her chuunibyou is actually supposed to be a consequence of fixing such issue, not the other around hence why I never said Touka and Yuuta did the best course of action. However, the situation is just as follow: because of that "problem", Rikka is simply not in touch with reality in a reasonable way, to the point it deals collateral damage. And suffice to say, the point isn't to fix her personality but overly handle her problem with by default affects her chuunibyou. And it is precisely why I kept repeating her current chuunibyou is by no mean what you can't leave her accounted for: it will just be a nagging reminder of what Rikka has lost and not got over yet, which is why I and other people used overexaggerated analogy to make the point across: you -never- leave the very catalyst that leads so abnormal behaviour. That's pretty much inciting that individual to have a relapse (which is why Yuuta had to handle out and cut the chase with Sanae). Quote:
You are stating that point as if it was a fact she will move on, on her own, despite it isn't as simple as that. And to make things worse, the current situation with her relatives wouldn't move to the slighest if she were to stay in her chuunibyou. Quote:
I would agree if the series didn't touch any drama at all, and that chuunibyou was used just as a comedy factor without any afterthought (a bit how Okabe's was played in Steins Gate), with it being a mundane stuff sure. There are reasons why we have such a drastic contrast in the series, with various instance we can actually notice Rikka's loneliness and so forth. Not especially the smoothest transition, but the anime sure have spread points that do not always portray chuunibyou in general as a harmless and glorified behaviour.
__________________
|
||||
2012-12-14, 19:31 | Link #114 |
The Shermain
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NY
Age: 44
|
The problem with Rikka's chuunibyou is that to her, it isn't just something fun, like it is was with Dekomori or Yuuta. It's not just escapism. It's completely avoiding reality altogether. With Dekomori and Yuuta and seeing how they interact with other people who aren't Chuu2s, you know that they see it as an act and just something that is/was fun to do. With Rikka, it's different. Though you can infer that she knows it's not real, she's so absorbed in it that it actually makes you wonder whether or not she's actually delusional or not. It's not healthy.
I knew a guy in real life who was like Rikka. He had a somewhat tough home life (a sister who was mentally and physically handicapped, tough parents, etc), so throughout high school he took his escapism (his particular brand was Star Trek, The Next Generation) everywhere. He was a pretty nice guy, but he had problems. He'd pass kids in school at the age of 18 and say he was "shifting to Warp 9". He'd talk into his watch like a communicator. He'd use his calculator as a tricorder in the middle of class. His grades suffered, he was ostracized, and after school he couldn't keep a job because his escapism interfered too much with his personal life. He'd rather skip work to play video games, or even worse, sit there and daydream about Star Trek, than actually try to be productive. He had no ambition to do better because he was happy with his daydreams and spent more time lost in his own mind/delusions than actually trying to do something with his life. Last I heard, about 8 years ago, he tried to commit suicide. Rikka's on that same slippery slope. For her, the lines between her chuunibyou and real life are blurrier than they are for someone like Dekomori who clearly acts normally when not around others like her (as seen in class). Rikka can't even turn it off when interacting with teachers, it's affecting her school work, etc. What if she got a job? Do you think they'd be happy is she started introducing herself to clients as the Tyrant Evil Eye? If this weren't a KyoAni production, I'd be half expecting her to slit her wrists in order to get to the Horizon where her father is.
__________________
|
2012-12-14, 20:24 | Link #115 | ||||||
Senior Member
Author
|
Quote:
You can't just dismiss everything that came before the last few episodes. Like it or not, those first few episodes also say something about this fictional world and the people in it. And one of the things it says is that Rikka having her funky club is no bigger deal than the Food Research Club in Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate or the Classics Club in Hyouka or any other of the numerous half-nonsensical clubs in various anime shows. These clubs are frequently set up for little reason other than to allow friends to goof off in an organized setting. And keep in mind that Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate and Hyouka could get pretty dramatic/serious at times too. Certain genre conventions are essentially part of the fictional world we're evaluating here. Quote:
So unless Rikka and Yuuta intend to separate from each other, I think it would be highly beneficial (if not imperative) for Rikka's chuunibyou to, in a sense, be reformed into something that she can continue to take enjoyment from. I don't think that Rikka should deny her chuunibyou past, and nor do I think that Rikka should deny chuunibyou itself because it's a key, central element for many of her closest friendships and relationships. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Well, if that "turn chuunibyou off forever" is the impression this anime wants to give us, then this is one bizarre way of trying to convey it. The way this episode portrays current Rikka certainly doesn't support that impression much.
__________________
|
||||||
2012-12-14, 21:07 | Link #117 | |||||||||
Also a Lolicon
Join Date: Apr 2010
|
Quote:
Quote:
2. Clubs that don't do anything are common in anime. It's a nice happy fluffy fantasy. This is a series that deals a fair bit with reconciling reality with fantasy. With those two in mind. May I suggest that, like how reality is crashing down on Rikka, reality is crashing down on Chuu2. Quote:
Quote:
Also, that aside, would she take enjoyment from it though? It's a coping mechanism that is closely related to family problems and her dead father. She has fun, but would she enjoy it later, or would it be a pretty nasty reminder? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Going around pretending to be a Jedi or a Ninja or something isn't insane. It's actually quite fun, but believing that you are a Jedi or a Ninja is a problem. Quote:
Quote:
I don't see anything against turning her delusions off forever, what I see is against turning her delusional activity off forever, i.e., she should still have fun pretending, but it should be pretending. No where am I getting the vibe that Rikka should keep honestly searching of her father and running away from reality. |
|||||||||
2012-12-14, 21:22 | Link #118 | ||||||||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
|
Quote:
Like I said, I wouldn't even bother with this discussion if the series was solely destined for a fun ride. However, the said series also hinted at several occasions that the "fun time" isn't the sole point, and something less happy go lucky was set, ever since Yuuta realized that Rikka had barely any friends. Quote:
Quote:
As it stands, the club hardly had any activity and surely didn't contribute anything as a club. As for the characters, that's certainly another story. Quote:
And that's actually what I was stating from the very beginning: Rikka -current- chuunibyou needs to be changed, due to the nature of the former. Just hiding it would not fix the problem: her behaviour needs tweaks, that's far as it goes. And for that, she need to address the initial problem that lead her to turn into a chuunibyou girl. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If Rikka had just "hard time" to have some normal behaviour, it wouldn't be as distressful. However, as the show has shown so far, her chuunibyou is basically permanent thus far, even when she is -alone-. That is really too deep rooted to expect her to act normally conveniently. Quote:
The catch is that they still can "use" it for fun at times, but that definitely proves how different their cases were compared to Rikka's. Again the point stands: Chuunibyou behaviour is not a socially acceptable behaviour, nor for the involved individual, nor for society in general, especially in Japan, where personal space, humility and quietness are expected from everyone (which isn't an unique set of value for that country either). Heck, even yuuta knew it when he was in his chuunibyou period, as he bailed the very moment he saw that policeman. Rikka would definitely ignore him. Quote:
To illustrate my analogy: think a light bulb with the light as the "displayed behaviour", and the filament as the catalyst of such behaviour, while the bulb itself is the individual. Assuming the filment is going haywire (core issue for Rikka), the light you get isn't really doing any good, giving a funky green instead of blue (chuunibyou). Change the filament without changing the bulb in its entirety and you fix the light emitted. A off switch actually implies the chuunibyou is still there, but would be used at will, which still means that the problem why the chuunibyou appeared is -still- present. And what Touka and Yuuta tried was rather put a filter on Rikka's behaviour hoping the issue would be fixed as a follow, despite it won't be that easely (in my analogy, they rather tried to cover the light bulb with a blue hue plastic instead of fixing the core problem, the filament). What I think primordial in the conclusion of the series is that Rikka has to get over her personal problem, which will obviously change the purpose of her chuunibyou accordingly: as explained by Yuuta, Rikka keeps something dear to her, and the chuunibyou behaviour is a shield to maintain that. But if her problem is solved, likewise, her chuunibyou will not define her full personality as result. Instead, it could be potentially like Yuuta's: a simple means to mess around which wouldn't break the bound of social acceptance past a certain treshold. And eventually, if the necessity of acting chuuni disappear, that behaviour might naturally turn into her previous genki persona with some fantasies to brighten the mood, which wouldn't be really chuunibyou where it is a much stronger makebelieve concept (and in this case, it is her longing for her father that makes her believe he is still alive). But really, just giving Rikka a sense of "acting normal, acting chuuni" at the same time won't fix the problem at all. It will just displace it. Quote:
__________________
Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-12-14 at 22:05. |
||||||||||
2012-12-14, 22:58 | Link #119 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: France
Age: 35
|
Sorry, guys, i'm french so i will not wrote a lot after you.
But i read just one thing : Quote:
I hate a lot of things from KyoAni. The only thing i liked from KyoAni was Nichijou!, mainly because i loved the OP from Hyadain. When i began this anime, i was more "meh" ... another KyoAni thing with bad graphic style. <_< Now when i see it, i can just only feel sad and i think KyoAni can do some good thing too ... sometimes.... Sorry. :/
__________________
|
|
2012-12-14, 23:05 | Link #120 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
|
Quote:
This isn't something light that naturally wears off with time. I don't think you understand how important it was that Yuuta was constantly there not just to support her, but to keep her in check as well. Quote:
I don't understand how I'm supposed to answer this question when you don't count her family, you don't count her teacher, and you don't even count her peers. What elders are left? Yuuta's mom who usually has to work anyway? She clearly acted out during her first meeting with Yuuta in class, pretending that her eye and arm were hurting. Then, she acted out against every club she visited, towards peers that weren't part of her class that you could presume to be "used to her". If you're discounting every non-serious example as well as serious cases with her family, then there's not much left to the show. It's been shown that she hasn't been fine even before Yuuta forced her to take off her eyepatch. I don't understand how her dissatisfaction with being "normal" suddenly translates to going back to the way things were, where she had to turn every social situation, from meeting other people in clubs to dealing with the survival of her club to her own academic career into a battle in search for the Unseen Horizon. It's been obvious from the very beginning that Rikka needs Yuuta to keep her in check and grounded in reality, yet you're acting like encouraging her to follow not just any fantasy like Dekomori, but the fantasy of finding her father, thinking that she will outgrow it naturally when it's only thanks to Yuuta's help that she could even keep her academics and the club that's so very important to her afloat. She can have her chuunibiyou back when her outlook on her father's death is different. Last edited by Shadow5YA; 2012-12-14 at 23:35. |
||
Tags |
chuunibyou, drama |
|
|