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Old 2021-01-13, 12:22   Link #2021
SeijiSensei
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Impeachment is not a legal process. Officials need not commit crimes to be eligible for impeachment. While treason and bribery might be criminal acts, "high crimes and misdemeanors" covers a broad range of sins.
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Old 2021-01-13, 14:49   Link #2022
Ithekro
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Watching the debates on the House floor. Some are impassioned. Some sound sarcastic. Some seem genuine.

The trouble is, there is both a need to follow the Constitution, which would imply impeachment of President Trump, and for a de-escalation of rhetoric on both sides. The quote about a house divided cannot stand, is very appropriate. I didn't catch which congressman was giving the speech, but there was one about the transition of power after the 1800 election between Adams and Jefferson. Probably the most toxic election in history. But it ended with unity because of the actions of Jefferson and Adams. We as a country need that de-escalation. Badly.

Both side are seeing a replay of the rise of Nazi Germany before them, but from different points of view. One side sees Trump's message and followers as the Nazi Brown Coats moving like in the 1920s. Trump's supporters as seeing the mass censure of Conservatives by the Democrats and media as the Nazi consolidation of power in the 1930s. Both sides are invoking the Nazi rise to power as the other side.

Some Conservatives on the floor have been mocking the Democrats for "finally acknowledging riots and hatred" siting the Democrats words against Trump and Conservatives since November of 2016 and the support of BLM during the summer.

We don't need a powder keg with a fuse. We already got one. What we need is for the fuse to get removed so that we the people will have time to empty the barrel.

Trump does need to be held responsible for his actions. He needs to never be able to hold office again. His followers need to move on with their lives. But the Democrats also need to back off a bit. With full control of the government, what will they do? This is what Trump's supporters fear the most....the idea that the Democrats will break the Republic by selling it the China (or more accurately, reforming the country into a Socialist state). They have fears of the Cold War era still drummed up in their heads...some since the 50s and 60s...all the way to the end of the Cold War. That drumming of "Socialism is evil" cannot be overcome. It was drilled into them as propaganda for decades. Generations. It will only pass when the Baby Boomers pass on...and perhaps even their children. Their children's children were born at the end of the Cold War or later, and were not subject to government Cold War propaganda about Socialism. Just parental and party lines driven versions of the matter. Thus Trump supporters have that drumming tapped. And getting that tapped makes them more dangerous if the Democrats start doing things they have been predicting they would do (regardless on if it actually "destroys the country" or not). I've been hearing that a war is coming since at least the Obama administration from Conservatives. They always tended to think it was a war coming from the left that they would need to defend themselves against. But has Trump tapped that drum beat enough to get them to start the war on the pretense that they are preventing the Socialists from taking over the country? I hope not. I hope for reason. I hope (probably feudally) for logic. I hope for an enduring United States of America.

Impeachment may be needed. But to what end? Trump has 7 days left in office, and the Senate will not come back to even look at it for six days. Do we want a real impeachment or a show of political force? And what can one do about impeaching a non-sitting President? Realistically, Trump will be out of office before a reasonable trail is concluded. Such a trial will distract Congress from doing the rest of their jobs (like helping the people. Supporting President Biden...whatever is going on in the rest of the world...those things). So the question remains....to what end? Again, Trump must be made accountable for his actions and inactions, and he must never hold office again. The question will be...what will it cost us to ensure that happens?
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Old 2021-01-13, 15:02   Link #2023
Sheba
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Its comically sad to see Repubs crying for unity and healing the nation after weeks of pissing on the face of Dems.
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Old 2021-01-13, 15:06   Link #2024
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Watching the debates on the House floor. Some are impassioned. Some sound sarcastic. Some seem genuine.

The trouble is, there is both a need to follow the Constitution, which would imply impeachment of President Trump, and for a de-escalation of rhetoric on both sides. The quote about a house divided cannot stand, is very appropriate. I didn't catch which congressman was giving the speech, but there was one about the transition of power after the 1800 election between Adams and Jefferson. Probably the most toxic election in history. But it ended with unity because of the actions of Jefferson and Adams. We as a country need that de-escalation. Badly.

Both side are seeing a replay of the rise of Nazi Germany before them, but from different points of view. One side sees Trump's message and followers as the Nazi Brown Coats moving like in the 1920s. Trump's supporters as seeing the mass censure of Conservatives by the Democrats and media as the Nazi consolidation of power in the 1930s. Both sides are invoking the Nazi rise to power as the other side.
Before getting into that "both sides" thing, I put to you that one side needs to stop being insurrectionist.

Quote:
Some Conservatives on the floor have been mocking the Democrats for "finally acknowledging riots and hatred"
They have acknowledged the white supremacist riots and hatred since at least Charlottesville.

Quote:
siting the Democrats words against Trump and Conservatives since November of 2016 and the support of BLM during the summer.

We don't need a powder keg with a fuse. We already got one. What we need is for the fuse to get removed so that we the people will have time to empty the barrel.

Trump does need to be held responsible for his actions. He needs to never be able to hold office again. His followers need to move on with their lives. But the Democrats also need to back off a bit. With full control of the government, what will they do? This is what Trump's supporters fear the most....the idea that the Democrats will break the Republic by selling it the China (or more accurately, reforming the country into a Socialist state). They have fears of the Cold War era still drummed up in their heads...some since the 50s and 60s...all the way to the end of the Cold War. That drumming of "Socialism is evil" cannot be overcome. It was drilled into them as propaganda for decades. Generations. It will only pass when the Baby Boomers pass on...and perhaps even their children. Their children's children were born at the end of the Cold War or later, and were not subject to government Cold War propaganda about Socialism. Just parental and party lines driven versions of the matter. Thus Trump supporters have that drumming tapped. And getting that tapped makes them more dangerous if the Democrats start doing things they have been predicting they would do (regardless on if it actually "destroys the country" or not). I've been hearing that a war is coming since at least the Obama administration from Conservatives. They always tended to think it was a war coming from the left that they would need to defend themselves against. But has Trump tapped that drum beat enough to get them to start the war on the pretense that they are preventing the Socialists from taking over the country? I hope not. I hope for reason. I hope (probably feudally) for logic. I hope for an enduring United States of America.
Well, if you want some "both sides", maybe "both sides" need to stop indulging those guys' delusions. Maybe "both sides" need to stop incentivizing craziness.

Quote:
Impeachment may be needed. But to what end? Trump has 7 days left in office, and the Senate will not come back to even look at it for six days. Do we want a real impeachment or a show of political force? And what can one do about impeaching a non-sitting President? Realistically, Trump will be out of office before a reasonable trail is concluded. Such a trial will distract Congress from doing the rest of their jobs (like helping the people. Supporting President Biden...whatever is going on in the rest of the world...those things). So the question remains....to what end? Again, Trump must be made accountable for his actions and inactions, and he must never hold office again. The question will be...what will it cost us to ensure that happens?
An equally important question: what will it cost to not do it?

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2021-01-13 at 15:30.
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Old 2021-01-13, 15:15   Link #2025
Ithekro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post

An equally important question: what will it cost to not do it?
Yes. That question also holds weight.

The House is voting now.

EDIT:

President Trump now officially has half of the total number of Presidential Impeachments in the United States. (total is four...he now has two).
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2021-01-13 at 16:42.
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Old 2021-01-13, 17:01   Link #2026
AC-Phoenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Yes. That question also holds weight.

The House is voting now.

EDIT:

President Trump now officially has half of the total number of Presidential Impeachments in the United States. (total is four...he now has two).
Moreover, he is the only one who got impeached twice. Well he did go down in history jut as he wanted to...
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Old 2021-01-13, 17:02   Link #2027
barcode120x
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Impeachment may be needed. But to what end? Trump has 7 days left in office, and the Senate will not come back to even look at it for six days. Do we want a real impeachment or a show of political force? And what can one do about impeaching a non-sitting President? Realistically, Trump will be out of office before a reasonable trail is concluded. Such a trial will distract Congress from doing the rest of their jobs (like helping the people. Supporting President Biden...whatever is going on in the rest of the world...those things). So the question remains....to what end? Again, Trump must be made accountable for his actions and inactions, and he must never hold office again. The question will be...what will it cost us to ensure that happens?
This.

I think the dems in a sense want to spit back in Trump's face for all he did the last 4 years, and of course more recently. This is literally their last attempt to which is why they're pushing so hard for this go to through. I'm nowhere near a politician or know anything about politics, but I don't think much will actually happen to the country if Trump is impeached (aside from losing benefits, whatever they may be). It just seems (based on my passionate friends) that most important outcome if he is impeached is that he can't run for president. That's an understandable reason. If he isn't impeached, I think he will run for president again unless the Reps can provide a more suitable candidate. People tend to forget that Trump didn't lose this election by a landslide. He lost by a somewhat a close margin, but it's important to note that he got at least 45% of the country on his side. That says a lot, whether you think that's a good thing or not.

In the end, I personally think this is petty BS between adults. 7 days left in office and they still want to impeach. I understand the reason behind some of the impeachment articles (inciting riots, etc), but what a freaking waste of time. There's a lot more this country and its lawmakers should be dealing with rather than bickering and spitting in each others' face. The hate is so strong. Doesn't matter if you're a Dem or a Rep.
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Old 2021-01-13, 17:14   Link #2028
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode120x View Post
This.

I think the dems in a sense want to spit back in Trump's face for all he did the last 4 years, and of course more recently. This is literally their last attempt to which is why they're pushing so hard for this go to through. I'm nowhere near a politician or know anything about politics, but I don't think much will actually happen to the country if Trump is impeached (aside from losing benefits, whatever they may be). It just seems (based on my passionate friends) that most important outcome if he is impeached is that he can't run for president. That's an understandable reason. If he isn't impeached, I think he will run for president again unless the Reps can provide a more suitable candidate. People tend to forget that Trump didn't lose this election by a landslide. He lost by a somewhat a close margin, but it's important to note that he got at least 45% of the country on his side. That says a lot, whether you think that's a good thing or not.
7 million votes isn't a small margin.

Quote:
In the end, I personally think this is petty BS between adults. 7 days left in office and they still want to impeach. I understand the reason behind some of the impeachment articles (inciting riots, etc), but what a freaking waste of time. There's a lot more this country and its lawmakers should be dealing with rather than bickering and spitting in each others' face. The hate is so strong. Doesn't matter if you're a Dem or a Rep.
He's partly responsible for an attempted coup. Impeachment is both the least and the most they can do.
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Old 2021-01-13, 17:23   Link #2029
barcode120x
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
7 million votes isn't a small margin.
In a population of 328 mil, 7 million IS a small margin. Yeah, roughly only 150mil people voted, but 7mil of that 150 is still a "small margin." Again, having 46% of the votes is almost half. The fact that Trump has been largely "unliked" within the nation and across the world, to be able to STILL pull that many votes speaks a lot. Then again, Biden wasn't a fan favorite for some as well. The lesser of two evils I guess.
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Old 2021-01-13, 17:32   Link #2030
Ithekro
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Well at this point it is in the hand of the Senate. So the House can get on with regular business at the least going forwards. Unless something changes, the Senate will not look at the Impeachment until the 19th. A conviction requires a 2/3rd voting majority. The Senate is split 50/50 as of the seating of the two new Senators from Georgia. If it was simple majority, it would be up to the Vice President to break a stalemate, but with 2/3rds majority, to get a conviction would require upwards of 17 Republicans to vote against Trump. Upwards, if their are significantly less than the whole 100 Senators voting, it is 2/3rds of those voting (if I recall).

After that they would need probably another vote to bar Trump from holding public office again (regardless of if his supporters want him to run in 2024 on any ticket...even as a write in). Oddly I could see more Republicans supporting that one over the conviction vote. They want him out of the Party in a way that he can't come back legally, nor split the Party like Teddy Roosevelt did. Nor run as an Independent like Ross Preriot did in the 90s. They want his massive support, but not him.

Lesser of two evils is how we got Trump. Remember Hillary Clinton was (and is) a hated figure in some parts of the country, and some voted for Trump just to be sure she didn't get into office. Even some of the electors jumped ship in 2016. This time 2020. The electors didn't jump ship. They held firm. We've had our four years of Trump, and more people came out and said, "no thank you". However still more people came out of the woodwork and said, "Yes, more of that please"....so where do we go now?

(For clarity: The Republican Party gained 11.23 million more votes in 2020 verses 2016. The Democratic Party gained 15.41 million more votes in 2020 verses 2016. So 26.64 million more people vote in 2020 than in 2016. That is a lot of people. Just over 2/3rds of the voting population (66.7%), but from around 55.7% voting in 2016.)
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2021-01-13 at 17:45.
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Old 2021-01-13, 17:47   Link #2031
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode120x View Post
In a population of 328 mil, 7 million IS a small margin. Yeah, roughly only 150mil people voted, but 7mil of that 150 is still a "small margin." Again, having 46% of the votes is almost half. The fact that Trump has been largely "unliked" within the nation and across the world, to be able to STILL pull that many votes speaks a lot. Then again, Biden wasn't a fan favorite for some as well. The lesser of two evils I guess.
Sure, when compared to banana republic elections where a candidate can get 90% of the vote, it's tiny. But when compared to the margins of other modern POTUS election, that 7 million margin is... one of them. Not remarkably big. Not remarkably small.

I'm not denying the importance of the Trump base nor the significance of its increase, but speaking of a small margin is a false narrative. Unless you want to talk about state races, some of which were close, I guess.
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Old 2021-01-13, 17:58   Link #2032
AC-Phoenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode120x View Post
In a population of 328 mil, 7 million IS a small margin. Yeah, roughly only 150mil people voted, but 7mil of that 150 is still a "small margin." Again, having 46% of the votes is almost half. The fact that Trump has been largely "unliked" within the nation and across the world, to be able to STILL pull that many votes speaks a lot. Then again, Biden wasn't a fan favorite for some as well. The lesser of two evils I guess.
You mustn't forget that there are dead-set voters always voting for their party's candidate, no matter who it is. The number isn't exactly minor either.
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Old 2021-01-13, 18:01   Link #2033
Ithekro
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Historical note: That last time the United States had this much participation in the election of a president was 1908 and pretty much every election between 1840 and 1908. After that voter turnout doesn't hit the 65% again until 2020. With the closest being 63% for the 1952 election ("I like Ike" won and the Republicans controlled both houses that year.)

Though a though has occurred to me. The voter turnout drops in 1920...the year that women gained the right to vote...thus increasing the number of potential voters. I wonder how much disenfranchisement continued with woman not voting for one reason or another, even though they could legally. Similarly to black voting in the South being difficult, at best until and after 1965. Did the pandemic and technology finally break the last of the old chains...but the chain holders refuse to believe it?
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Old 2021-01-13, 19:01   Link #2034
The Green One
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Well so Impeachment in the senate. Means they need at least 75 yes votes to make it happen. So they've got to turn at least 25 Republicans if this doesn't happen until Biden's term starts. Only had 10 in the house. Doesn't seem likely does it? I suppose what happens inauguration week will have an impact one way or another.
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Old 2021-01-13, 19:21   Link #2035
serenade_beta
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It probably won't succeed. That said, the second impeachment is more symbolic than not, as it is a condemnation of what Trump did.
Similarly, the Trump Party doesn't what a successful impeachment to (further) stain their (pitch black) reputation.
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Old 2021-01-13, 19:37   Link #2036
OH&S
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Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
Well so Impeachment in the senate. Means they need at least 75 yes votes to make it happen. So they've got to turn at least 25 Republicans if this doesn't happen until Biden's term starts. Only had 10 in the house. Doesn't seem likely does it? I suppose what happens inauguration week will have an impact one way or another.
They need two-thirds of the Senate to vote for conviction. So 67 yes votes (17 republicans).
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Old 2021-01-13, 20:07   Link #2037
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by OH&S View Post
They need two-thirds of the Senate to vote for conviction. So 67 yes votes (17 republicans).
I think even less than 67 if some republican senators simply abstain from being present on said session.
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Old 2021-01-13, 21:04   Link #2038
The Green One
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Originally Posted by OH&S View Post
They need two-thirds of the Senate to vote for conviction. So 67 yes votes (17 republicans).
Ah gotcha. Thanks for the correction.
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Old 2021-01-13, 22:10   Link #2039
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
I think even less than 67 if some republican senators simply abstain from being present on said session.
Which could be a very appealing prospect for some of them who would like to see it happen but are too cowardly to say so on the record.
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Old 2021-01-13, 22:26   Link #2040
Ithekro
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The Senate is designed for cooler heads to prevail...and instead of appealing to your own voting base, the senators need to appeal to the opposition to get anything to happen with a supermajority.
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