Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

If Nunally is only an excuse, that still doesn't work.



And, as that quote shows, hates letting them die regardless.



Consequentialism disagrees.
Also, Lelouch and Suzaku both thought it was the right thing to do. You can disagree, but they were pushing their views onto others from season one, just like most other human beings do to a smaller extend.



A world peace decided upon by almost every human being on the planet.



Also, I'm not so sure about the wording in episode 7. The subs I watched said it was only that particular Eleven they would stop picking on.

For a guy who hates letting people die, he sure as hell does it easy enough. Are you seriously suggesting that when he blew up Mt. Fuji that he honsestly gave a flying rats ass about the thousands of brainwashed soldiers he just killed?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

A world peace decided upon by almost every human being on the planet.

if that was the case, it does not require lelouch to do Z-R
this is a contrediction in itself
if people decided on this peace on their own free will, because thats what people would always strive for - then lelouch's Z-R achieved nothing and he killed people for nothing
if lelouch was resposible for people deciding to make peace which they would not create on their own - then its not really free will, but rather manipulation
and either option is immoral

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

if that was the case, it does not require lelouch to do Z-R
this is a contrediction in itself
if people decided on this peace on their own free will, because thats what people would always strive for - then lelouch's Z-R achieved nothing and he killed people for nothing
if lelouch was resposible for people deciding to make peace which they would not create on their own - then its not really free will, but rather manipulation
and either option is immoral

Lelouch and Suzaku believed the "chain of hatred" had to be broken before people could move on. And this, in their eyes, was best achieved through deception.
Also, there is no ultimate moral theory, and some moral theories are perfectly all right with deception.

[bladeofdarkness]

the question is simple then
what would the reaction of the people of the world be if they learned about Z-R being planned

are they more likely to say "yeah, lelouch tricked us into peace, we should accept that all the people he murdered we're just broken eggs, and call him and suzaku heroes for deceiving us"

or are they more likely to hang suzaku off the highest building they can find

any plan that depends on the public remaining in the dark about it, is immoral
because no one would accept it if they knew about it

dont think about this idealisticlly
think about it like normal people would

how would the american people respond to learning that the US goverment is behind 9/11 becuase it allowed them to bring freedom to the people of iraq

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the question is simple then
what would the reaction of the people of the world be if they learned about Z-R being planned

are they more likely to say "yeah, lelouch tricked us into peace, we should accept that all the people he murdered we're just broken eggs, and call him and suzaku heroes for deceiving us"

or are they more likely to hang suzaku off the highest building they can find

People don't want to be deceived, just like they would never accept it might have been necessary.

any plan that depends on the public remaining in the dark about it, is immoral
because no one would accept it if they knew about it

You are taking your personal moral theory and presenting it as the ultimate way to measure what is right and wrong.
If everyone was killing each other and innocent people suffering, and you could deceive them into stopping, they'd hate you for it even if you didn't have anyone to kill anyone. It would be ultimate freedom > happiness.
Utilitarianism would laugh in your face.

dont think about this idealisticlly
think about it like normal people would

Normal people tend to be inconsistent in their "morals", and take things personally where they are directly affected.
I'm by no means an idealist.

how would the american people respond to learning that the US goverment is behind 9/11 becuase it allowed them to bring freedom to the people of iraq

Edit: *scretches what she has written*
See ultimate moral theory.

[bladeofdarkness]

there may not be an ultimate moral theory
but there is a very basic level of it

if you have to keep people in the dark about your plan, because they would lash out violently against them if they knew about them
then what ever results you achieved by your plan is immoral regardless of whether or not they are "good"

[Bonzo]

Looking the storyboard Lelouch could to use more different ways to broke hate chain and build peace, he just used the more spectacular and destructive way, like the unstable man he was, suzaku lost his equilibrium after the fleija disaster, then he was ready for make everything.

Example, before to use the geass for to become king, he could to show to the world what Charles and V.V done and use them to justify euphemia's madness, the result was britannia destruction in every case and world people use their hate to the royal family and not euphemia, after maybe he was a target too, but to die was his goal, then....

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

Looking the storyboard Lelouch could to use more different ways to broke hate chain and build peace, he just used the more spectacular and destructive way, like the unstable man he was, suzaku lost his equilibrium after the fleija disaster, then he was ready for make everything.

Example, before to use the geass for to become king, he could to show to the world what Charles and V.V done and use them to justify euphemia's madness, the result was britannia destruction in every case and world people use their hate to the royal family and not euphemia, after maybe he was a target too, but to die was his goal, then....

yep, pretty much
he chose the most spectacular path, rather then the best one

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

there may not be an ultimate moral theory
but there is a very basic level of it

It isn't.
Because there is no such thing as an ultimate moral theory, except maybe if you believe in God.

if you have to keep people in the dark about your plan, because they would lash out violently against them if they knew about them
then what ever results you achieved by your plan is immoral regardless of whether or not they are "good"

Utilitarianism says the overall happiness is what is most important. The Original position says something similar.
Kant more or less says the ends never justify the means.
You say ultimate freedom of choice is most important. That could be difficult in a society where 95% of the population thinks slavery is awesome and refuse to see things any other way. I mean, what do you do if you can't convince them, and had the chance to just trick them? Would you let them continue to hurt others for their personal gain, since they chose to do so?

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Utilitarianism says the overall happiness is what is most important. The Original position says something similar.
Kant more or less says the ends never justify the means.
You say ultimate freedom of choice is most important. That could be difficult in a society where 95% of the population thinks slavery is awesome and refuse to see things any other way. I mean, what do you do if you can't convince them, and had the chance to just trick them? Would you let them continue to hurt others for their personal gain, since they chose to do so?

A)lelouch didnt HAVE the chance to trick them, he CREATED the chance, using the blood of countless people as ink

B)if you say that 95% of people believe slavery is awesome and you force them to change their world views using manipulation of hate and mass murder, then the argument of "everyone agrees suddenly that slavery is wrong on their own free will" is bullshit
lelouch DOES force his own world view on people, just as shnizel would have, only using tricker means
if by contrast, people would normally agree that slavery is wrong on their own account and free will, then there is no reason to trick them into doing it

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

not out of principle
out of the fact that it means his sister being discarded

funny that you mention that. I was going to say something similar and forgot to earlier.

Lelouch's sole reason for doing what he did was Nunnaly. He never really cared about all the other people who suffered because of the Britannian system. While Kallen and Suzaku were fighting for justice, and for the sake of other people Lelouch was fighting for Nunnaly, and to figure out the truth behind his mother's death. That's as selfish as you can really get. If the Marianne plot never took place and Lelouch never had the chance to meet and interact with commoners he most likely would've ended up in charge of an Area playing soutoku.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

For a guy who hates letting people die, he sure as hell does it easy enough. Are you seriously suggesting that when he blew up Mt. Fuji that he honsestly gave a flying rats ass about the thousands of brainwashed soldiers he just killed?

Well, Mt. Fuji was a contingency plan. Lelouch said it himself that he never expected the Black Knights to pose much of a threat. The battle was going bad for them so they HAD to use Mt. Fuji and sacrifice their ground forces, but that was a good trade off because it took out a good chunk of the Black Knights forces including their flag ship. As a soldier you accept that your life may be expendable and the leader is ultimately responsible for seeing the overall picture and making decisions that could cause you to lose your life.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

A)lelouch didnt HAVE the chance to trick them, he CREATED the chance, using the blood of countless people as ink

You tried to make up some kind of ultimate moral theory.
I just tried to show you it's not perdect. Again, moral theories have to be consistent. If you say manipulating people is evil because you are manipulating them, then Lelouch was no more wrong than you would be if you tried to keep people from getting hurt by tricking those responsible in any way.

B)if you say that 95% of people believe slavery is awesome and you force them to change their world views using manipulation of hate and mass murder, then the argument of "everyone agrees suddenly that slavery is wrong on their own free will" is bullshit

The thing is, people's choices will always be influenced by something. Hell, there are people who say a free will doesn't even exist.
If you kill my hamster, and that maks me think killing is wrong, then I have still arrived at that conclusion on my own free will. If you, on the other hand, take Damocles and point it at my hamster and threaten to blow it up should I kill anyone, I haven't decided that killing is wrong. I have decided I don't want you to kill my hamster.

lelouch DOES force his own world view on people, just as shnizel would have, only using tricker means

Yes, and Suzaku was pushing his ideals on people in season 1. That's what humans do. You have a moral theorie, you act according to it, because you think you're right.

if by contrast, people would normally agree that slavery is wrong on their own account and free will, then there is no reason to trick them into doing it

But people would not normally agree on many things that are "right", because very often, they need someone or something to open their eyes first.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

funny that you mention that. I was going to say something similar and forgot to earlier.

Lelouch's sole reason for doing what he did was Nunnaly.

Yep, and Suzaku does everything out of guilt.
Again, morals have to come from somewhere.

He never really cared about all the other people who suffered because of the Britannian system.

Yes, go ahead and ignore all the points I already made, about him coming to aid people during a car accident in the first episode, or the elderly couple he was helping when Shirley started to fall in love with him, or his "even if I mess up here, no one has to die" line.

While Kallen and Suzaku were fighting for justice, and for the sake of other people Lelouch was fighting for Nunnaly,

Actually, Kallen was fighting because of her brother and Suzaku was fighting because he felt guilty.
Are you telling me they might have had a concscience even without that? And here I thought everyone was like Lelouch, evil by birth and only becoming "moral" through his sister.

and to figure out the truth behind his mother's death. That's as selfish as you can really get.

What, exactly, is selfish about doing everything for the ones you love? Yes, Lelouch overdid it, but if we want to call his readiness to sacrifice everything for Nunally selfish, then everyone is constantly acting selfish, because we do things because they make us feel good, even if it's just by giving us the knowledge that we "did the right thing".
Lelouch isn't "just" in this respect, but he's "loyal". I don't see how one is considerably more selfish than the other.
Oh, and Euphie basically came up with the SAZ for Lelouch and Suzaku in the beginning. Maybe she got what was coming to her, and she really never had morals? Wait...

If the Marianne plot never took place and Lelouch never had the chance to meet and interact with commoners he most likely would've ended up in charge of an Area playing soutoku.

Just like Suzaku would have been an evil little terrorist had he not killed his father and felt guilty because of it.
If anything, their roles would have been reversed, as the staff had intended at one point - Lelouch would have been the idealist and Suzaku the one who thought the end justifies the means.

[bladeofdarkness]

You tried to make up some kind of ultimate moral theory.
I just tried to show you it's not perdect. Again, moral theories have to be consistent. If you say manipulating people is evil because you are manipulating them, then Lelouch was no more wrong than you would be if you tried to keep people from getting hurt by tricking those responsible in any way.

The thing is, people's choices will always be influenced by something. Hell, there are people who say a free will doesn't even exist.
If you kill my hamster, and that maks me think killing is wrong, then I have still arrived at that conclusion on my own free will. If you, on the other hand, take Damocles and point it at my hamster and threaten to blow it up should I kill anyone, I haven't decided that killing is wrong. I have decided I don't want you to kill my hamster.

what is the supposed "basic" difference between lelouch's plan and shnizel's plan other then the death toll ?
lelouch's plan is said to put trust in humanity's ability to struggle for a better future, while shnizel's just imposes peace by force without considering people's will

ok
then lets explore that concept of free will vs manipulation then

mao manipulates shierly to almost kill lelouch by using her guilt and pain
shnizel manipulates nina to continue building him a nuke by using her feelings about euphie
lelouch attempts to manipulate suzaku into joining him by using the guilt over his father
diethard manipulates kallen into almost killing suzaku by using her loyalty for zero
lelouch manipulates the japanese people into hate against britannia by blaming euphie for something that he's reponsible
lelouch manipulates villeta into working for him by using info he knows about her
lelouch manipulates gillford into fighting against britannia by making him think lelouch is someone else
lelouch manipulates rolo into switching sides by falsely feeding his desire for a family

all these are cases where someone is doing something under the effect of a manipulation of some sort
all of them were done out of a supposed level of choice
but its always something that they would not have done without being manipulated into it

Z-R is a paradox in that regard
if lelouch was right in trusting in humanity, and people would struggle to make the world a better place on their own free will - then there was no need to deceive them using Z-R, and the only thing that it REALLY achieved was feeding lelouch's ego, and killing people for no reason
which makes lelouch's plan un-necessarily evil, and pointless
if the only reason why peace exists is because lelouch TRICKED humanity into accepting peace, and people would not have chosen to make peace on their own - then its not really a peace derived out of free will, but rather lelouch manipulated mankind into it against their better judgement and free will
which makes lelouch's plan no better then shnizel's and charles

Actually, Kallen was fighting because of her brother and Suzaku was fighting because he felt guilty.
Are you telling me they might have had a concscience even without that? And here I thought everyone was like Lelouch, evil by birth and only becoming "moral" through his sister.

not WHY they are fighting
what are they fighting FOR
both suzaku and kallen were fighting for the sake of the Japanese people
lelouch was not

[Neku]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

not WHY they are fighting
what are they fighting FOR

Q: Why are you fighting?
A: I am fighting because <insert reason>..

Q: What are you fighting for?
A: I am fighting for <insert reason>..

What's the difference?
Btw, Lelouch was fighting for Nunnally.

[bladeofdarkness]

the WHAT is the goal
the WHY is the reason for wanting to achieve that goal

lelouch was fighting for two things
nunnaly (his mortality pet)
revenge
both are completely self-centered

there is a difference between this and fighting to free/improve the lives of an oppressed people

[Neku]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the WHAT is the goal
the WHY is the reason for wanting to achieve that goal

Then you capitalized the wrong words.

[bladeofdarkness]

i know i DO that some of THE time
point still stands

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

Z-R is a paradox in that regard
if lelouch was right in trusting in humanity, and people would struggle to make the world a better place on their own free will - then there was no need to deceive them using Z-R, and the only thing that it REALLY achieved was feeding lelouch's ego, and killing people for no reason
which makes lelouch's plan un-necessarily evil, and pointless

Lelouch might have more faith in humanity than Schneizel, but it's a "they can learn from their mistakes under the right circumstances" kind of faith, and not infinite.

if the only reason why peace exists is because lelouch TRICKED humanity into accepting peace, and people would not have chosen to make peace on their own - then its not really a peace derived out of free will, but rather lelouch manipulated mankind into it against their better judgement and free will
which makes lelouch's plan no better then shnizel's and charles

Charles would basically have thrown everyone into a giant melting pot, so let's count him out. I like my indiviuality and my ability to lie, thank you very much.
Schneizel wasn't nearly as bad as many people make him out to be, in my opinion, but what he was trying to do is still different from Zero Requiem - see my allegory with the pet hamster.

not WHY they are fighting
what are they fighting FOR
both suzaku and kallen were fighting for the sake of the Japanese people
lelouch was not

Wasn't he?
And that's where we disagree. Yes, Nunally was his main reason. But he still felt sympathy for those being oppressed by Britannia, and for the weak in general.
Also, fighting for the ones you love isn't self-centered - not in my book. Lelouch was a seventeen year old boy with some serious issues; give the guy a break. Sometimes, I doubt he knew what he was fighting for himself. Still, he did a lot of things he didn't have to do - like when he made Clovis not only stop the massacre but also order to treat the Japanese no different from Britannians afterwards. It's mentioned nowhere that anyone remembered that or even made the connection and thought Zero was awesome because of it. They only cared that Clovis was dead.
Also, Suzaku was so driven by his guilt that he didn't stop to think about whether what he was trying to do had any chance for success. Yes, he was fighting for the Japanese, but he chose to overlook the fact that he might be hurting them instead, or that the rest of the world would still be at Britannia's mercy. In my opinion, that's no better than Lelouch's fixation on Nunally.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i know i DO that some of THE time
point still stands

Well.. not everyone has the same reason to fight for the same goal.
Some do it for freedom, some for money, some for their family etc

Suzaku fought because of his past. Lelouch fought because of Nunnally, and like you said, because of revenge. So what they're fighting for and why they're fighting are pretty much the same.

..and actually, you didn't capitalize the wrong words to mean your original point.
You just capitalized the wrong words to explain what the "what" and "who" meant.