Fate/Zero - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Grey

So Athenian democracy didn't work?

Of course, athenian democracy was the one of the most effective first form of democracy, but the circumstances are nowhere the same, especially considering 2 centuries seperate Alexander's reign and athen's democratic model.

It's not that it couldn't work. I'd say there was no incentive for people in power to make it work. Something like "it's necessary for the nation" is as legit as the classic "divine right of kings."

Everything started with ambitions from a single man, and by no means Alexander was a saint, obviously (to begin with, Rider is quite a very fancy version of Alexander, starting from the looks and age).
However, I hardly believe you really can lead a country for such campaigns with democracy as its main driving point (although the position of a king at that time would definitely shaken the said authority of the king altogether, so both concepts wouln't work since they are basically antipodes).

moreover, for the benefit of clarity, the supposed contrast to Saber's position was presented with certain misrepresentation to the histories involved. Saber had both the power and ideals to serve Camelot, it was betrayal which (as I understand) led to Camelot's downfall. Thus for serving as a point of contrast, whilst neither ideology can safeguard the particular challenge of betrayal, their influence on the likelihood of same becoming a source of disruption to both rulership and its dominion underscores what makes for tenable differences between the ideologies.

You can't really use history with FSN heroes to begin with: Arthur and Alexander personal story were pretty much tailored for the authors' goal.
Heck, even the origins of Arthurian legends are basically contradictory considering how the tales aren't matching (especially the french influence such as the addition of Lancelot of the Lake and so forth).
Honestly, I can't even remember if the "legend" itself states Arthur was criticized for his lack of humanity (should there was to begin with).

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by whatbob1

Guess we'll just have to see what they add in the Blu-ray or whatever.

Here's hoping they add from the sound drama of Gilgamesh laughing his ass off non stop when Saber told them her ideals. And continues to laugh in the background the whole time, it's pretty hilarious.

youtube link of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DLlL...utu.be&t=1m30s

Wow, I figured we'd missed out on some potentially great Gil tidbits, but they couldn't even include Tomokazu Seki's absolutely awesome and hilarious laughter in the background? Son I am disappoint.

Though I did think Gil's highly amused mood swing was a little too sudden in the episode, so maybe his earlier mockery of Saber is part of those 5+ min of cut material? I certainly hope so, though I won't hold my breath for it. Ufotable's work had been basically infallible for the first 9 episodes, but some of their decisions and priorities in episodes 10 and 11 have dampened my prior absolute faith in them.

Originally Posted by Kagayaki

IIRC, Endless Twilight hasn't read the novels, so he thought that Gilgamesh actually gave a definition of kingship (which would have been interesting to hear), although that's not in this scene in the novel either. The absence of such a speech — the fact that he doesn't feel the need to debate ideologies and just ridicules Saber — is a form of character development as well.

You do realise I could easily go and read the corresponding novel chapters myself if I were so inclined? I never actually asked whether Gil had indeed gone into kingship or not in the original material and I believe I would've rather found out for myself if that had been the case or not.

And he did go into "his law" when explaining his attitude towards the Holy Grail in the beginning of the episode, which while not quite as relevant to kingship as Saber and Rider's input still concerned the general subject matter of the discussion. So maybe he doesn't directly state his definition of kingship, but his reactions and responses to Saber's own could also provide insight into that as well as his character in general. It's not easily expendable material at all and the only reason the lack of it doesn't bother you is because you already know all those little tidbits of characterisation and exposition from the source material, so of course you wouldn't find any of them "crucial" or whatever. Of course it'd be easy to surmise such things from brief and tiny visual keys when you already know them for a fact from straight up reading about them in the original material. It's all fine and dandy when your knowledge of the story goes beyond what you see in the anime, but for us non-novel readers what's shown in the anime is all we get.

But I digress, since, really, I've all but realised already that this type of discussion with novel readers can never go anywhere. They're proven time and again already that they can never put themselves in the shoes of those who're experiencing the story for the first time with this anime. So I've no intention of prolonging this particular discussion when all I've got is speculation based on limited knowledge against your much more extensive and actually complete factual knowledge.

Originally Posted by sento

http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-5842.html

Confirmed.

Um, for those of us whose knowledge of written Japanese doesn't go that far yet, mind telling us what exactly was confirmed? The additional footage of the Blu-ray version of this episode I presume?

[KyriaL]

Shows that battles are not only fought with the clashing of swords and shields, but also through debates and talks, and in this case, a dialogue.

But its too bad the Assassins barely fought back against Rider's army.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by KyriaL

Shows that battles are not only fought with the clashing of swords and shields, but also through debates and talks, and in this case, a dialogue.

But its too bad the Assassins barely fought back against Rider's army.

Assassins aren't generally known for glorious last stands. If they realise they're screwed, nothing to do but run like hell or accept their fate like that one female assassin favoured by the anime.

[klare]

this eps shows how over-powered is Rider's strength, how badly Saber getting a kings lecture, how useless Assassin is when in open field

i guess only King Gil remained unmove by Rider's little performance

[Clarste]

Assassins are not soldiers. It should be obvious who has the advantage in open battle when they're all at the level of weaker servants.

[Gohan78]

The omission of the dialogue between Tokiomi and Kirei is a glaring fault.
I already read three different bloggers (including Guardian Enzo) who thought that Kirei kept some Assassins on reserve. By not showing Tokiomi's order to Kirei to deploy all of the Assassins, non-novel readers were deprived of a vital information.
That said, I still voted this episode a 10/10 because the Ionioi Hetairoi scene was godly.

[Proto]

That scene will be shown in the BR version.

[sento]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Um, for those of us whose knowledge of written Japanese doesn't go that far yet, mind telling us what exactly was confirmed? The additional footage of the Blu-ray version of this episode I presume?

Yep, five minutes longer in BD.

[Yuna Amakura]

Originally Posted by Grey

No, Rider specifically says that the King doesn't sacrifice himself for his people, but the people sacrifice themselves for the King. What consideration for his people is that? What is that but selfish tyranny? It's almost the exact opposite of modern responsible governance and accountability to the people.

I think you're confusing his comradeship with his fellow warriors with how he sees Kingship and responsibility to the average person.

Aside from being selfish tyranny, I'd simply consider it a far more realistic approach to what a king really is than Saber's martyr ideology. That is so far-fetched. If we take History, that's what happens most of the time. How many kings sacrificed themselves for their people? Some may have done this, but they're definitely not the majority.

I prefer a character that presents the raw, "cruel" reality than one that simply doesn't seem to portray reality as it is. In other words, I prefer a "selfish tyrant" than a "goody two-shoes" martyr that sacrifices herself for her kingdom, something I simply can't envision.

[Clarste]

Just because it doesn't happen doesn't mean it's not beautiful. That's exactly what Saber's trying to capture, the unreachable dream of what things should be.

[jeroz]

A role model does not necessarily mean a good leader.

Saber is a saint, not a king.

I just wonder if she's able to let that unreasonable ideal go in FSN...

[Fome]

Originally Posted by sento

http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-5842.html

Confirmed.

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Um, for those of us whose knowledge of written Japanese doesn't go that far yet, mind telling us what exactly was confirmed? The additional footage of the Blu-ray version of this episode I presume?

Wow that interview was pretty enlightening. It seems ufotable really did struggle over whether or not to split this into two episodes, and for the same reasons we've been discussing, ended up putting it all into one episode. And apparently the additional five minutes included with the BD will even incorporate Kirei!

There is also a lot of other interesting info in that post, particularly concerning differences between the LN and the anime. I don't think this counts as spoilers because it can't possibly affect future episodes, but it says that in the LN all three kings were wearing traditional Japanese attire for the feast, but because ufotable felt that Saber and Gilgamesh had initially intended to engage in battle rather than discourse, it was more appropriate that those two arrive in armor.

They also explain the differences in last week's Rin episode, but I'll leave that for a different thread.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

My question is will these additional scenes also be incorporated into DVD releases as well? It'd seem a bit strange if the only way to see the show in its truest form would be only on BR.

[giorno]

Originally Posted by klare

i guess only King Gil remained unmove by Rider's little performance

well, not really, no. Though unfortunately the anime cut it out(the BD version will probably add it). It's kinda the biggest crowning moment of awesome for Alex, too

[Klashikari]

It wasn't that bad since not only Gilgamesh didn't sneer at Rider's elogy, but he actually had that faint smile and kept the silence, which means quite a bunch with Gilgamesh, who is prone to let out his displeasure or insult without any restrain.
But yes, that little line was basically a huge acknowledging behavior expressed by gil.

[bhl88]

So they will add more dialogue and fix everything?

[g_silver]

Epic Episode with RIDER Owned Assassin

I still don't understand why Saber believe King will undoubtedly be alone?(that's make me think of what C.C. told Lelouch when they form a contract). Is it because she think King has to bear responsibility that can't be share or understand by any other?

[bhl88]

Probably... Or she's a saint: she's unreachable.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by g_silver

Epic Episode with RIDER Owned Assassin

I still don't understand why Saber believe King will undoubtedly be alone?(that's make me think of what C.C. told Lelouch when they from contract). Is it because she think King has to bear responsibility that can't be share or understand by any other?

That's more or less correct: A King represents the one who shall accept and take responsibility for all burden of their nation, according to Arturia.
Moreso when the main task is to assure the welfare of all of her people.
Therefore, even her knights, soldiers etc are basically counted in such mindset, leading to no one but herself to assure her country prosperity.