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Old 2014-06-25, 19:18   Link #2061
XFire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Not if writing is at least half decent. Touta might knows how Kirie immortality works but not principles behind that, what's more He doesn't have clue how Fates petrification magic works. He never encountered it before. So unlike his past events when he showed good judgement, if he were able make accurate evaluation it would be capital asspull.

Touta logic doesn't actualy have anything to do with Kirie this time around. He just realised that even if their plan failed they were able get past Fates defences which is occasion that might not repeat itself anytime soon if ever.
He's not Negi, he doesn't analyze situations in the middle of them. Granted, Negi would have just punted Fates ass up between his ears, but still. Touta is the same type as Asuna, Nagi, and Rakan. He acts on a combination of fighting instinct, intuition, and surprising insights. He obviously noticed something about Kirie, perhaps he noticed her vitality lowering due to the drug. Maybe he felt the spell coming undone due to some aspect of Kiries powers. There could be a dozen perfectly good explanations for it depending on how the author chooses to write it.
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Old 2014-06-25, 22:00   Link #2062
chaosprophet
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Basically what XFire said. We don't know what Touta noticed nor how he did it. We need to wait until that is explained to judge if it's something that makes sense or not.
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Old 2014-06-25, 23:09   Link #2063
Dargor
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Never underestimate an idiot hero.
With the power of convenient plot fiats of course that the audience will get no hint of, making the idiot hero look "smart" and "insightful" with no evidence to counteract it and only serve to make them look like they can actually wake up and tie their shoes.


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Granted, Negi would have just punted Fates ass up between his ears, but still.
Regular Negi, or Lighting Space Jesus Negi? Even then it wasn't a curbstomp fight.

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Touta is the same type as Asuna, Nagi, and Rakan.
Eh, I'd disagree. We've never actually seen Asuna in any extended battle (It's a safe assumption, but even Asuna went for cover when fighting Miss Flamey eyes as opposed to continue the charge. It bit her in the ass in the end, but still), Nagi literally could throw himself at the enemy and flat overpower them but could be easily lured into traps though and needed to be bailed out, ala Cosmic Enchilada 2.0, and Rakan actually had enough battle experience to actually compensate and react to a plethora of different situations accordingly, which is a stark contrast to how most idiot hero's work.

Quote:
"...and surprising insights."
YMMV on how surprising...or insightful his quips are. I really just want to see Touta fail hard to either promote character development or smash his undefeatable special snowflake status to pieces. Please, for the love of god, don't let Touta overpower Fate with the power of his intense FEELS.

Last edited by Dargor; 2014-06-25 at 23:21.
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Old 2014-06-26, 00:36   Link #2064
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Touta is a vampire so perhaps he can perceive her blood flow or life force or something. It isn't that unlikely for a vampire to have that ability. He obviously noticed something about Kirie before coming up with his new plan. Of course everyone will call it an ass pull even if it makes sense.
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Old 2014-06-26, 01:38   Link #2065
XFire
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Originally Posted by Dargor View Post
With the power of convenient plot fiats of course that the audience will get no hint of, making the idiot hero look "smart" and "insightful" with no evidence to counteract it and only serve to make them look like they can actually wake up and tie their shoes.
It depends on how well he writes out the plot point. If its something obscure but related to Toutas abilities (like his vampiric ones as SoloPanda said) then it can't really be called an asspull.


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Originally Posted by Dargor View Post
Regular Negi, or Lighting Space Jesus Negi? Even then it wasn't a curbstomp fight.
STUPID GRANDDAD PUNCH!!!

Joking aside, my point was just that Negi would be perfectly justified in going up and pounding it out with Fate under any circumstances, unlike Touta who appears to have some kind of reason for his apparent suicide attack.

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Originally Posted by Dargor View Post
Eh, I'd disagree. We've never actually seen Asuna in any extended battle (It's a safe assumption, but even Asuna went for cover when fighting Miss Flamey eyes as opposed to continue the charge. It bit her in the ass in the end, but still), Nagi literally could throw himself at the enemy and flat overpower them but could be easily lured into traps though and needed to be bailed out, ala Cosmic Enchilada 2.0, and Rakan actually had enough battle experience to actually compensate and react to a plethora of different situations accordingly, which is a stark contrast to how most idiot hero's work.
I meant the "I'll manage it somehow" thing. Remember when Negi is getting ready to train with Rakan and says he wants to be more "stupid", basically referring to the seemingly reckless courage and ability to move forward constantly that Asuna and Nagi had? That's what Touta has.

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Originally Posted by Dargor View Post
YMMV on how surprising...or insightful his quips are. I really just want to see Touta fail hard to either promote character development or smash his undefeatable special snowflake status to pieces. Please, for the love of god, don't let Touta overpower Fate with the power of his intense FEELS.
Um, yeah. He spent the first few chapters getting the shit kicked out of him by Yukihime, was completely overpowered by the other Numbers, was stomped by both immortal hunters until Magia Erebea kicked in, then stomped again by mooks. There is no special snowflake status here. He's alive because he's the adopted son of Evangaline FUCKING Macdowell and she kills everything that he can't handle.
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Old 2014-06-26, 02:00   Link #2066
Dargor
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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
It depends on how well he writes out the plot point. If its something obscure but related to Toutas abilities (like his vampiric ones as SoloPanda said) then it can't really be called an asspull.
I quite frankly think the execution sucks if it goes that route. If Touta actually has an idea, I'd like an internal monologue at the very least showing him to have these supposed insightful/some shred of higher thinking, giving him some semblance of characterization outside being annoying happy go lucky twit. The audience at least will be able to mull it over than shoving his SHEER OMEGA WILLPOWER down our throats.



Quote:
I meant the "I'll manage it somehow" thing. Remember when Negi is getting ready to train with Rakan and says he wants to be more "stupid", basically referring to the seemingly reckless courage and ability to move forward constantly that Asuna and Nagi had? That's what Touta has.
Funny thing here is that Rakan berated Negi for it things saying things like REAL POWER and GENUINE STRENGTH are for clever idiots who reached the end of their rope. Horribly depressing that this is basically what UQ Holder runs off of.

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Um, yeah. He spent the first few chapters getting the shit kicked out of him by Yukihime...
And proceeded to get her towel in record time despite lack of taking his training seriously at that point...

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was completely overpowered by the other Numbers
With a faulty Shundo as the basis for it that he proceeded to perfect and DEFEAT a man whose entire fighting style is devoted to it...

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was stomped by both immortal hunters until Magia Erebea kicked in
Provided the finishing blow to both of them (and again, beating out the man whose entire technique is devoted to Shundo with the same principles in play)...

Quote:
then stomped again by mooks.
And despite having a vast numerical advantage and having weapons devoted to killing his kind, and being weakened to boot, still gave those guys a lot of trouble before going down.

See, the funny thing here is that none of those "defeats" (I don't personally agree, but that's a moot point) never stuck, not like the way it did with Negi. Aside from being saddled with a debt that's been brushed under the rug and for storytelling purposes nonexistant, none of these events triggered anything in Touta to actually change his tune. And why should it? He got to beat Kaito, he got to land the finishing blow on Nagumo, none of the orphans died, and the worst thing that happened was some structural damage to the slums. Aside from turning into a monster and artificially shrugging it off to try and keep that plot thread rolling, the worst thing that happened to Touta outside his backstory is what? Losing his arms a couple of times?

He needs to be completely beaten out to actually sit himself down, get his ass in gear, and finally show some semblance of character progression.

EDIT: So, uh...things I liked about the chapter? Karin's leg block and the Priestly guy, I guess? Let's see, what else...oh, Kirie can now be UQ Holders garden gnome. That's sorta cool.

Last edited by Dargor; 2014-06-26 at 02:12.
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Old 2014-06-26, 02:24   Link #2067
XFire
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Originally Posted by Dargor View Post
I quite frankly think the execution sucks if it goes that route. If Touta actually has an idea, I'd like an internal monologue at the very least showing him to have these supposed insightful/some shred of higher thinking, giving him some semblance of characterization outside being annoying happy go lucky twit. The audience at least will be able to mull it over than shoving his SHEER OMEGA WILLPOWER down our throats.
Using vampiric powers to notice blood-flow is not will-power. Neither would noticing something about Kiries condition because of his knowledge of her powers. If it isn't an asspull, then the rest is just opinion.

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Originally Posted by Dargor View Post
Funny thing here is that Rakan berated Negi for it things saying things like REAL POWER and GENUINE STRENGTH are for clever idiots who reached the end of their rope. Horribly depressing that this is basically what UQ Holder runs off of.
And then proceeded to Negi Fever his ass in the tournament. He said those who use those things for excuses (like Negi was doing) for their own lack are clever idiots. However, the qualities I mentioned are explicitly pointed out as good ones, and the opposing but valid path aside from darkness Negi could have chosen.

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Originally Posted by Dargor View Post
And proceeded to get her towel in record time despite lack of taking his training seriously at that point...
He'd been fighting her every day for years. He also implied they'd done this before, though not on that scale. Also Yukihime was playing around.

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Originally Posted by Dargor View Post
With a faulty Shundo as the basis for it that he proceeded to perfect and DEFEAT a man whose entire fighting style is devoted to it...
A man who had received a face/stomach/body full of Magia Erebia three seconds ago.

To be honest, I'm surprised Toutas as weak as he is. He's commented to be a combat genius by Yukihime herself, he has Negi's genes, and ME to boot. Heck, we should be praising the Werewolf for lasting that long.

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Originally Posted by Dargor View Post
Provided the finishing blow to both of them (and again, beating out the man whose entire technique is devoted to Shundo with the same principles in play)...
And again, both beat the everloving shit out of him till someone else stepped in or he used ME, which is the most broken power in the game.

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Originally Posted by Dargor View Post
And despite having a vast numerical advantage and having weapons devoted to killing his kind, and being weakened to boot, still gave those guys a lot of trouble before going down.

See, the funny thing here is that none of those "defeats" (I don't personally agree, but that's a moot point) never stuck, not like the way it did with Negi. Aside from being saddled with a debt that's been brushed under the rug and for storytelling purposes nonexistant, none of these events triggered anything in Touta to actually change his tune. And why should it? He got to beat Kaito, he got to land the finishing blow on Nagumo, none of the orphans died, and the worst thing that happened was some structural damage to the slums. Aside from turning into a monster and artificially shrugging it off to try and keep that plot thread rolling, the worst thing that happened to Touta outside his backstory what? Losing his arms a couple of times.

He needs to be completely beaten out to actually sit himself down, get his ass in gear, and finally show some semblance of character progression.
So basically...... "Waaahhhhh, why isn't he Negi?"

What exactly is he doing wrong here? Should he be angsting over his debt? That'd be really cool. Over the loss of his humanity? Yeah, lets cry about being a monster in front of Yukihime, who gave him everything for the past several years before saving him again. Should he be trying to get stronger? Why, there isn't an enemy to fight or some monster to kill.

This is the kind of character Nagi was, and the one Akamatsu originally wanted to write before he was pushed into making Negima a harem comedy.
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Old 2014-06-26, 02:46   Link #2068
Dargor
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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
Using vampiric powers to notice blood-flow is not will-power. Neither would noticing something about Kiries condition because of his knowledge of her powers. If it isn't an asspull, then the rest is just opinion.
Like I said elsewhere, vaguely showing it and not actually revealing anything until after the fact is generally a direction to take since it pretty much leaves the author twenty different ways to conveniently pull a character out of a fire on a whim.


Quote:
And then proceeded to Negi Fever his ass in the tournament.
You want to know the funny thing about Rakan is? He's the exact polar opposite of the standard hero who often time gets through by having latent powers and being super ultra special in their own series. Rakan quite litterally made it entirely through life by the skin of his teeth back when he was an 80lb nothing, and only made it to where he was through actual experience and training.

Even Nagi who played it entirely straight failed in everything he personally wanted to accomplish. He couldn't kill the Lifemaker, he seemingly couldn't protect Arika twice, lost his master, lost his body, and effectively was taken out of commission for ten years leaving his son for all intents and purposes on his own.


Quote:
He'd been fighting her every day for years. He also implied they'd done this before, though not on that scale. Also Yukihime was playing around.
Touta seriously didn't invest in any substantial training up until he was tossed into that labyrinth. In the case of him and his friends, it was more like a game than any actual practical training that Negi went through. He only started taking shit seriously when Kuro entered the picture.

Quote:
A man who had received a face/stomach/body full of Magia Erebia three seconds ago.
When the basics of which come down to a Shundo match at its purist, that really isn't much of an excuse. Especially given they were both knackered at that point.

Quote:
To be honest, I'm surprised Toutas as weak as he is.
Touta is a lot of things, but weak isn't one of them. You honestly can't make Touta the ultimate fighting machine (though I'm still in the construct camp, so that is a possibility), because what the hell is the point of a story like that?

Quote:
And again, both beat the everloving shit out of him till someone else stepped in or he used ME, which is the most broken power in the game.
So then the question is WHY he's given such a broken power, twice, in the span of five or so chapters in the first arc, that early in the series? It seriously wouldn't be as jarring if it occurred once at least later.

Quote:
So basically...... "Waaahhhhh, why isn't he Negi?"
Hooray for baseless assumptions. Please, spare me the whole "Dur hur you hate him because he isn't Negi" tripe. I think that kid turned out no better than Touta currently is.

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What exactly is he doing wrong here?
Aside from playing every single rule in the shounen cliche straight as a board, from an author who was actually good at setting up subversions to standard cliches and actually putting an interesting spin on it? Like I said, actually dealing the final blow to at least two major enemies he fought while having the most broken ass power in the universe bail him out twice, on top of his healing factor and immortality? Thing here is that none of this would be anywhere near as groan inducing if combat and fighting weren't actually UQ Holder's focus, but if it were actually how immortals deal with the problem of being immortal as was speculated early in the series. That's actually an interesting narrative device that pretty much flopped the moment we he the HQ.
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Old 2014-06-26, 03:10   Link #2069
Endscape
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Originally Posted by Dargor View Post
Touta seriously didn't invest in any substantial training up until he was tossed into that labyrinth. In the case of him and his friends, it was more like a game than any actual practical training that Negi went through. He only started taking shit seriously when Kuro entered the picture.
That's untrue. Sure, he wasn't overdoing it to the same degree as Negi, but he was definitely putting some effort into it. Swinging around a bunch of 20 kg weights 300 times everyday is hardly playing around.

Quote:
When the basics of which come down to a Shundo match at its purist, that really isn't much of an excuse. Especially given they were both knackered at that point.
I'm pretty sure Kaito was much more injured than Touta at that junction.

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Aside from playing every single rule in the shounen cliche straight as a board, from an author who was actually good at setting up subversions to standard cliches and actually putting an interesting spin on it?
I seriously think people overrate Negi as a subversion of the standard shounen hero. He was different, but not all that much.

Quote:
Thing here is that none of this would be anywhere near as groan inducing if combat and fighting weren't actually UQ Holder's focus, but if it were actually how immortals deal with the problem of being immortal as was speculated early in the series. That's actually an interesting narrative device that pretty much flopped the moment we he the HQ.
Touta is the main character, and the guy's only 14, and has been immortal for less than a half a year. What kind of problems should he have with being immortal at this stage in his life?

That's the sort of thing he'd be dealing with in a hundred years.
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Last edited by Endscape; 2014-06-26 at 03:46.
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Old 2014-06-26, 04:28   Link #2070
Tenzen12
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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
He's not Negi, he doesn't analyze situations in the middle of them. Granted, Negi would have just punted Fates ass up between his ears, but still. Touta is the same type as Asuna, Nagi, and Rakan. He acts on a combination of fighting instinct, intuition, and surprising insights. He obviously noticed something about Kirie, perhaps he noticed her vitality lowering due to the drug. Maybe he felt the spell coming undone due to some aspect of Kiries powers. There could be a dozen perfectly good explanations for it depending on how the author chooses to write it.
Touta already stated his reasons, they are perfectly in-character and valid enough that even Fate himself aknowledged them. You don't have to look for other reasons especialy if it includes Touta using psychic abilities thet weren't even hinted so far.
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Old 2014-06-29, 08:45   Link #2071
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new ch raw out
Spoiler for raw:
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Old 2014-06-29, 17:59   Link #2072
XFire
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new ch raw out
Spoiler for raw:
That's.... more mundane than I was thinking. Also, Yukihime was standing there watching them fight?
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Old 2014-06-29, 19:57   Link #2073
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That's.... more mundane than I was thinking. Also, Yukihime was standing there watching them fight?
no when kirie come back in time they went to the underground, eva was there waiting

it seems that touta is almost like negi in kyoto arc, he managed to hit fate at least once
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Old 2014-06-29, 22:23   Link #2074
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Touta now way outclasses Negi in Kyoto. Asuna had to take down Fate's barrier, and Negi did briefly snare Fate. However, Touta now has (1) successfully controlled Magia Erebea, (2) wielded a 500 ton sword, (3) defeated Fate's barrier without assistance, and more.
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Old 2014-06-29, 23:39   Link #2075
EvI
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well fate was more testing him and touta still didn't get full control over his magia erebea he didn't even use it in this battle

actually i want to see how touta will use magia erebea without magic since we saw only negi and eva using it consuming the magic and modified their bodies and stats according to the magic, how will a swordsman that knows nothing of magic use it...
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Old 2014-06-30, 00:21   Link #2076
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He would probably feed ki to it? The possibilities are certainly interesting
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Old 2014-06-30, 00:22   Link #2077
XFire
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well fate was more testing him and touta still didn't get full control over his magia erebea he didn't even use it in this battle

actually i want to see how touta will use magia erebea without magic since we saw only negi and eva using it consuming the magic and modified their bodies and stats according to the magic, how will a swordsman that knows nothing of magic use it...
I have this odd image of Touta eating his sword now....
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Old 2014-06-30, 00:52   Link #2078
Tenzen12
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Originally Posted by AstroNerdBoy View Post
Touta now way outclasses Negi in Kyoto. Asuna had to take down Fate's barrier, and Negi did briefly snare Fate. However, Touta now has (1) successfully controlled Magia Erebea, (2) wielded a 500 ton sword, (3) defeated Fate's barrier without assistance, and more.
It's not like he can use it however he pleases, he can't invoke it and there is nothing imply it would be easier handle than before so far.

That said Asuna=500 tons sword + Kuromaru + Kill sat + Karin

Sound legit to me.
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Old 2014-06-30, 00:56   Link #2079
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I have this odd image of Touta eating his sword now....
You're reading Re:Monster too much
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Old 2014-06-30, 01:15   Link #2080
Dargor
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
That said Asuna=500 tons sword + Kuromaru + Kill sat + Karin
I would argue that Negi's strike against Fate(and it was completely ineffectual aside from freaking Fate out) was part blind luck, and part Fate completely writing those two off as a non-factor. Bare in mind, its only Asuna's magic cancel that was a factor rather then any strength/skill she showed there on her part. It is possible to neutralize the barrier, but in Negima it required a technique Negi specifically developed, Kaede's sixteen split simultaneous attack, or just hitting so hard the barrier is rendered irrelevant.

That said, I say that Touta is barely under Negi with a Sim Fabricatus Ab Incendio armationem, since that's the first point Negi could manage to fight Fate without completely getting curb stomped (and he was still too weak to deal a real hit to begin with). Touta is certainly a tougher opponent then Negi prior to his ME training.

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He would probably feed ki to it? The possibilities are certainly interesting
The problem is that without any actual spells to give the armationem to give any beneficial side effects, absorbing Ki would probably only give massive buffs...but you have you're own ki to power you to begin with. The most practical absorption of Ki I can think of is absorbing your opponents, but the problem is that it took RTII to make that a practical power, otherwise Eva wouldn't have deemed it a failure to begin with.

Last edited by Dargor; 2014-06-30 at 01:27.
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