[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Drifloon]

Ange's attitude towards Eva is just freaking WEIRD, to be honest. It's not consistent at all. During most of EP4 aside from the Okonogi conversation, she doesn't actually seem to particularly suspect Eva at any point! Instead she seems to be keeping an open mind, trying to look into every possibility - and at the end she even seems to forgive Eva and realise that it was her sadness at losing her family which caused her to be so cruel to Ange, which would imply that she certainly doesn't believe her to be responsible for the incident. And there are also a lot of points in EP4 where Ange seems to be pretty certain that Beatrice is in fact the culprit. We even have some lines that pretty much state that she doesn't really suspect Eva any more:

......Maybe Eva oba-san was also one of the targets to be killed. Eva oba-san had survived... because something had gone wrong.

.........Because I had hated Eva oba-san, I had come to believe that she had to be the culprit.

But the existence of the message bottle, .........had made me suspect that the mastermind was a far more profound and unknown person than her...

Yet when we get to EP8, we have a complete turnaround, and all the development from EP4 seems to have been erased to the point where Ange is just completely obsessed with the certainty that Eva is the culprit, refusing to consider any other possibility. It's really bizarre how her character is almost "retconned" in EP8 for no obvious reason.

[GreyZone]

don't forgot that a lot of EP4 and a lot of EP8 is just part of a fictional story and we have 2 gamemasters in EP8, which makes it even more complicated.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Yet when we get to EP8, we have a complete turnaround, and all the development from EP4 seems to have been erased to the point where Ange is just completely obsessed with the certainty that Eva is the culprit, refusing to consider any other possibility. It's really bizarre how her character is almost "retconned" in EP8 for no obvious reason.

Stranger still, even if we assume she never learned the info she learns in ep4, she is aware of the message bottles existing. There's no way she can't be.

So if her thought process in ep4 makes sense - and it does, certainly - she must know there was something else at work. How can she just suddenly ignore that information in ep8? I can't recall her even mentioning the message bottles. And that's strange, because, um... Battler and Beatrice talk about the message bottles on Battler's board. Like, in front of her. There is no possible way she could forget about that detail.

She also switches around to blaming Beatrice at random during the fight with her over Eva's diary. A diary that she is trying to obtain in order to prove that Eva did it. And she obtains it by... accusing Beatrice of being the one who is killing her.

Does anything Ange does in ep8 make the slightest bit of sense, even to her?

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Renall

Yeah, but that has no meaning in a "real" Ange sense. Only Meta-Ange has that notion, and only because Bern told her so. The "real" Ange wouldn't believe that a witch is literally entrapping her brother, but would see it as metaphorical.

Yet her interest in Beatrice as a culprit seems to evaporate whenever Eva comes up, and then Eva gets blamed. Yet if her thought is "Eva killed everybody and then covered it up," why would she (1) believe Battler could ever return, since Eva must've killed him too; and (2) think anything in particular about Maria's "Beatrice" is relevant, given that "Beatrice" was not Eva and thus didn't have anything to do with it?

Does she think they were working together? I mean the whole ep7 Tea Party vaguely explains a way that a parent could be the culprit but Beatrice could be somehow responsible, and she freaks out over that. Granted part of it is the choice of culprits, but still, it's like she's never considered the idea before. So how does she balance this interest in "Beatrice" with her supposed certainty that Eva did it?

Right. Well, in "real life", the illusion of Beatrice is one of the things obscuring the truth for everyone. Ange has a pretty strong conviction that Eva is responsible, but maybe her confidence is shaken by this 'Beatrice' image in the message bottles? Or if we take EP8's "oh hey just pretend they're alive" message into account, 'Beatrice' claims to have killed off everybody on Rokkenjima, which seems to shatter Ange's hope that "somebody is alive." Defeating Beatrice = "Battler can return."
I'm not sure what to do after this, so it's just a thought.

I prefer to believe that Ange just doesn't fucking know anything about anything and is just indecisive.

[Golden Bug-Hunter]

Don't forget that Beatrice is not just a personality of Yasu. In more Meta layers, she also represents the mystery, and every other mystery regarding Rokkenjima in the 80s and beyond, just like Dlanor represents Knox rules or Lambda Delta represents willpower. In that sense, Ange could easily hate Beatrice-the-mystery while also blaming and hating Eva-the-suspected-culprit.

Or, she could also think that there was a conspiracy or accomplice thing going on. Prime is not obligated to follow Knox rules after all. She could easily believe that the impersonator of 'Beatrice' and 'Eva' were two culprits working together.

I don't really remember her as blaming Eva early in ep 8 though. She seems to come in to the game unsure of the culprit and hating that person and then independently of that hating Eva because she did a lousy job of parenting when she came back and always made her feel inadequate next to George.

[GreyZone]

The scene where Erika saves Ange from goats suggests that Ange is blaming Eva only to make sure that her own family is innocent. She is using Eva culprit theory as a shield against Rudolf/Kyrie(/Battler) culprit theory.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter

I don't really remember her as blaming Eva early in ep 8 though. She seems to come in to the game unsure of the culprit and hating that person and then independently of that hating Eva because she did a lousy job of parenting when she came back and always made her feel inadequate next to George.

She does quite a bit, actually. She mentions it a time or two early in Battler's game and there's the "child soldier" conversation with Amakusa where she talks about being motivated as much by revenge as by any desire to know the truth. It falls by the wayside with the "Eva and Ange teaming up to solve the riddles" part, but it's definitely there.

If anything, Ange in ep8 seems far, far less interested in the actual truth than she does in ep4.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Ange's attitude towards Eva is just freaking WEIRD, to be honest. It's not consistent at all. During most of EP4 aside from the Okonogi conversation, she doesn't actually seem to particularly suspect Eva at any point! Instead she seems to be keeping an open mind, trying to look into every possibility - and at the end she even seems to forgive Eva and realise that it was her sadness at losing her family which caused her to be so cruel to Ange, which would imply that she certainly doesn't believe her to be responsible for the incident. And there are also a lot of points in EP4 where Ange seems to be pretty certain that Beatrice is in fact the culprit. We even have some lines that pretty much state that she doesn't really suspect Eva any more:



Yet when we get to EP8, we have a complete turnaround, and all the development from EP4 seems to have been erased to the point where Ange is just completely obsessed with the certainty that Eva is the culprit, refusing to consider any other possibility. It's really bizarre how her character is almost "retconned" in EP8 for no obvious reason.

Yes, I hated how Ange was handled in EP 8.
In Ep 4 she had seemed to have reached a more mature view over the incident, she considered Eva might not be the culprit, she understood Eva's reasons, she accepted Maria's inner world, she was sorry she had to break Beato's golden land but deemed more important to have Battler back, she even seemed to understand how the game worked better than Battler and she was willing to sacrifice herself for a more important cause (in the beginning she didn't accept Lambda's proposition and when she revealed herself to Battler she did so to help him).

In short Ange of Ep 4 was cool enough.

Ange of Ep 8 is a child who keeps whining she wants to know the truth but she's not really searching it or trying to understand it and that gets nothing of the game (Bern will make her ponder over it but she'll still fail to understand she just moved from being a piece on Battler's game to being a piece on Bern's game), insists on placing the blame on Eva even when it's clear Eva is protecting her, rejects the idea of magic stepping over people's feelings, clings to Battler, have hysteric moments, insist everyone is 'having fun' in the golden land and they're mean because they're leaving her out and, in short, acts like a spoiled 6 year old.

What's worse is there was no logic reason for this complete change in her.

Of course it can be that Meta Ange from Ep 4 is just a metaphorical representation for 'Battler's wish to return to his sister', some sort of moral support and guidance, while Ange from Ep 8 is something else entirely...
but it still comes out pretty confusing.

Also I don't think Ange met Beato. I'm not sure Maria and Ange were on the island together in days in which there wasn't the family conference and I think it's unlikely Beato would have showed herself to Ange if not on Maria's prompting.

So, about the conferences...

I'll say at best Maria met Beato in 1983 (when the epitaph was showed in 1984 Maria already knew of the magic toxin, something Beato told her) and we know that she was alone back then. We also know in 1985 Ange went to the family conference but felt sick so Maria went to play with Beato alone.

There would be the chance Ange met Beato in 1984, when she was 4 but somehow I doubt it as likely Maria was still building her friendship with Beato and it's possible Marriage Sorcierer didn't exist yet. As the family conference lasts usually one day and we know Beato advised Maria not to introduce Ange to it I don't think there was the time for them to make Marriage Sorciere and then try to present Beato to Ange.

Of course all this is pretty theoretical as we don't really know how many times Ange and Maria were on Rokkenjima together... though I think Maria told Ange prior to the incident she knew 'Beatrice' which caused in Ange to grow the idea she could be a real person.

On the other side 'Beatrice' for Ange can be just a metaphorical representation of the situation his family ended up facing and that finished with covering the truth so defeating Beatrice would merely means defeating those particular circumstances and either discovering one of her family members is alive and will come back or discovering the truth.

It's interesteng though how we're also introduced to Eva-Beatrice as if the tie between Eva and that setting was pretty deep, let's say more deep than the one Natsuhi could have (there's no Natsuhi-Beatrice in Ep 5 even if she's the one holding up the illusion in Ep 5 and Beato and Co seem merely her fantasy) or Rosa-Beatrice (Rosa has her own alter ego of Evil Witch, both mentioned in Ep 2 and 4 but she's never associated to Beatrice).

[AuraTwilight]

Yes, I hated how Ange was handled in EP 8.
In Ep 4 she had seemed to have reached a more mature view over the incident, she considered Eva might not be the culprit, she understood Eva's reasons, she accepted Maria's inner world, she was sorry she had to break Beato's golden land but deemed more important to have Battler back, she even seemed to understand how the game worked better than Battler and she was willing to sacrifice herself for a more important cause (in the beginning she didn't accept Lambda's proposition and when she revealed herself to Battler she did so to help him).

In short Ange of Ep 4 was cool enough.

Ange of Ep 8 is a child who keeps whining she wants to know the truth but she's not really searching it or trying to understand it and that gets nothing of the game (Bern will make her ponder over it but she'll still fail to understand she just moved from being a piece on Battler's game to being a piece on Bern's game), insists on placing the blame on Eva even when it's clear Eva is protecting her, rejects the idea of magic stepping over people's feelings, clings to Battler, have hysteric moments, insist everyone is 'having fun' in the golden land and they're mean because they're leaving her out and, in short, acts like a spoiled 6 year old.

What's worse is there was no logic reason for this complete change in her.

Battler never escaped the Logic Error. His opinion of Ange is lower than we all thought.

[Kiltias]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, that's something only Rudolf should know as it's assumed he's the son of Asumu... and anyway later on Kyrie also married Rudolf.



... I'm not sure I'm following you...

Kyrie latter married Rudolf indeed, doesn't change Battler was born by a noone.


I'm saying names are important in Umineko and aren't just for "decoration".
Afterall:
"The Corpse that cannot return to Earth."
"George: From the Greek name Γεωργιος (Georgios) which was derived from the Greek word γεωργος (georgos) itself derived from the element γη (ge) "earth"."
The Corpse that cannot return to George.

[Drifloon]

We're talking about the guy who named Kyrie, Ange and Asumu after Ragnarok Online spell names here. I wouldn't read too deeply into Ryukishi's choices of character names.

[Renall]

On the other hand, accidental genius is the best kind.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by MysteriousLurkerGuy

Toddlers generally do, unless it's "Full House" or something.

Man, a six-year old is not a toddler.

I dunno how it holds with a lot of the other things I believe are true, but it seems most logical to assume that Yasu may well have just suggested leaving Ange at home, since she would be a far less easily coerced element that literally everybody else. Sure, it could still work if Ange was written in, but, hey, we get a strong thread to the post-1986 world. Better than GOdha's mom, or Natsuhi's brother, anyway.

Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter

In that sense, Ange could easily hate Beatrice-the-mystery while also blaming and hating Eva-the-suspected-culprit.

This is how I tend to think of the Ange/Beatrice dynamic. Agreed.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Kyrie latter married Rudolf indeed, doesn't change Battler was born by a noone.

Small thing on this bit - so long as Rudolf was willing to acknowledge any children he had, I doubt being born out of wedlock would affect the child's place TOO much. After all, Rudolf was basically going to financially support Kyrie anyways, and seemed more embarassed by being caught with two babies than the idea of being disowned, or whatevs.

Also, it bears to mention that Kyrie IS from a pretty high-profile family (even if she DID get disowned), whereas Asumu was, as far as we're told, just some girl he met in college. I'm assuming from the brief comments Battler makes about living with Asumu's parents compared to living with Rudolf (which he called really extravagant, or something like that), that her social/financial background was nothing notable.

Originally Posted by Renall

On the other hand, accidental genius is the best kind.

As Dawn may or may not have proven.

[Kuroberus]

Am I right if I say anyone who survives the prime of tragedies (Rika, Battler,Eva,Ange) become witches? Rika splits into Bernkastel because of a so-called Miracle, Battler earns the title Lord BATTLER, Golden Endless Sorcerer of Miracles because his survival has a low chance but absolutely happens anyway and guardian Lambdadelta, Eva becomes EVA-BEATRICE because she was the only one alive(Battler dies, becomes Tohya) inherits the gold and guardian Lambdadelta because she certainly survives, Ange because she certainly survives the tragedy and also an inheritor of the gold.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Kuroberus

Am I right if I say anyone who survives the prime of tragedies (Rika, Battler,Eva,Ange) become witches? Rika splits into Bernkastel because of a so-called Miracle, Battler earns the title Lord BATTLER, Golden Endless Sorcerer of Miracles because his survival has a low chance but absolutely happens anyway and guardian Lambdadelta, Eva becomes EVA-BEATRICE because she was the only one alive(Battler dies, becomes Tohya) inherits the gold and guardian Lambdadelta because she certainly survives, Ange because she certainly survives the tragedy and also an inheritor of the gold.

Then what about Yasu-Beatrice? What about Virgillia? Well Yasu has (supposedly) survived a fall from a cliff as a baby, so that may count. But Virgillia/Kumasawa?

[Renall]

Maria became a witch and didn't survive. So what's up with that?

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Renall

Maria became a witch and didn't survive. So what's up with that?

Maria was only a "witch apprentice" though. Ange was as well, but Ange is a special case because she was not present at the incident.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Renall

Maria became a witch and didn't survive. So what's up with that?

Or did she? Metal Jaw Maria.

[battle22]

Guys I was thinking on EP3. 'Why did George leave the guesthouse'. Okay so George approached the window, was looking outside and saw who? Shannon.
Shannon, in other words, Yasu looked at him and ran away. George was shocked, he opened the window and jumped. Nanjo, as he was told, locked the window.
At this time, Natsuhi and Krauss are in the lobby.
They SAW George outside from the big window and left the mansion as well. Eva is somewhere else, trying to calm herself down.
Nanjo goes back to the first floor and locks the door with Chain. What the idiot did not figure out was that this was a trap by Yasu to make someone suspect one of the people inside the guesthouse.
So when Battler proposed the theory that someone might have locked the window and the door with a chain, he went really pale.
(He then, to save his ass told Battler that 'this might have been the work of the witch' which Battler immediately denied.
As for how George, Natsuhi and Krauss died. Kratsuhi thought that the culprit was George. There was some scuffle and they shot at him.
Yasu got mad and killed them (Because the plan she wanted to do with George failed.), then damaged their necks so that it would look like they were strangled.
In other words, almost the same thing as Kyrie, Rudolf and Hideko death. What do you think?

[Simplice Cantabile]

What follows is a theory dump. Sorry, I wrote it in one go and didn't proofread.


The Umineko series includes eight stories obeying the constraint "In the story, 11 members of the Ushiromiya family and a doctor visit the island of Rokkenjima. Precisely as the day 1986-10-05 ends, an intense explosion occurs. Only Eva returns from the island. Those who were thought to be on the island before 1986-10-04, including the head of the family, Kinzo, are never heard from again." A story obeying this constraint is a fragment, the set of all fragments is called the catbox.

Ryukishi07 writes the eight fragments presented in Umineko using the format of the murder mystery. False narration occurs in the presentation of the fragments, and the presentations employ meta-characters (non-piece-Battler, for instance). The use of multi-colored truths makes reasoning about culprits and alibis in these mysteries especially enjoyable for the reader.

-----------------------
A quick tangent for a theory on the kinds of truths.


A red truth for some fragment is a statement which agrees with reality in that fragment.

A spoken blue truth is a statement which, as far as the speaker can tell, is consistent with reality.

A spoken gold truth is a statement such that the statement being false, in the speaker's opinion, tarnishes the inherent beauty of reality.

A quick note on the gold truth. Gold truth is very powerful in fragments created by someone like Beatrice, who desires to show a beautiful reality. In other words, if one, say Battler, "turns the chessboard around" on the game master, he could make a statement like
"The killer must have a motive." because a killer without a motive is without a nuance of beauty, and hence Beatrice wouldn't have such a thing in her fragment. However, Gold truth is useless in many fragments created by the Trollkastel types.

------------
And back to the main theory-dump.

These murder-mysteries are framed in a box narrative; we are being shown the stories which haunt Ange. Ange's torture is as follows: If she chooses to believe that every terrible thing in any fragment is possible, she is left with a hideous view of her family. Instead, if she chooses to believe some fragment she enjoys, then she lives with the inability to prove that the fragment occurred: this merely draws out her torture.

The box narrative as a whole comes to a close in the second half of the eight episode as:

Spoiler for Ep 8 spoilers:

Ange decides to stop worrying about the past and live her life and meets Tohya (who once was Battler) through Hachijou, a storyteller who has made a name for herself writing stories about the Rokkenjima incident.

And now for some fun.


Ryukishi07 included ideas from fan theories in later episodes and never made a show of retconning details! If each of the fragments shown describe a single version of events, then Ryukishi07 must have planned all of the eight episodes before writing the first! But then, to stay in lines with the plan, Ryukishi07's writing would constantly be limited by a complicated arrangement of artificial boundaries! But a complex explanation is inferior to a simpler one! This is Occam's razor! Hence,

(thunderclap sound)

the fragments shown may represent different versions of reality!

(What do you think, everyone?)