Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Kaijo]

I like Thoma. Compared to every other main character, he actually has a fairly complex past. And thus his motivations, when combined with his current situation, make his list of possible responses fairly large. There is no telling exactly where he'll come down, not to mention, there is no idea on what his ultimate fate will be. Lily seemingly has his condition under control for now, but that could change.

He has a sense of justice and willingness to help others, like Nanoha did. And due to his condition, has empathy for the Hucks. I could see him trying to sacrifice himself to possibly help them.

As for the Hucks, I like them, too. One thing traditional magical girl shows lack, and Nanoha has mostly avoided, were antagonists that had no problems with killing and did it often. Much like the Wolkenritter, I think Tsuzuki has done a good job establishing these as antagonists and making them obvious criminals, and yet also writing them in such a way, that we can't completely blame them. Much like Fate became a tool for her mother due to strong influence that made her believe no other way was possible, the Hucks have become psychologically changed due to their infection and outcast from society. They feel they can only rely on each other, and survive by putting their powers up for sale.

Because of that, much like the Wolkenritter, I like the way it draws the contrast with the Bureau and sets the stage for why our heroes will clash with them. I can't speak much to Hardis at this point, because I don't know his full story (even though the Hucks full story isn't known, enough is to draw conclusions, unless proven otherwise). Maybe he feels he's honestly helping the Bureau and Humanity, by developing something that isn't magic-based, because he believes the Bureau's reliance on magic alone is misplaced. Maybe he just wants power. Maybe he wants something else. We shall see. That's part of the mystery that makes me keep coming back, so that I find out those answers.

I don't mind the AEC equipment so much, since I know they are primarily testing it. I presume their regular devices will be upgraded to type 5 as time permits, enabling them to be just as effective. Heh, I'm waiting for Vita to dual-wield Graf Eisen and a Warhammer.

Anyway, mostly I just like the blend of mystery and action, of seeing our heroes in action again. And I like storylines that aren't straightforward, or black and white, but have some subtle intrigue to them that make you wonder what's right, or whether there is a good ending to any of it.

In that light, I feel Force delivers.

[Justin_Brett]

Compared to every other main character, he actually has a fairly complex past.

His town got blown up, and he wants revenge on who did it. I think you're ignoring a few characters when you say that.

Anyway, I like Isis, and think she'd be a better lead than Touma's been so far, which the story seems to agree with since she's won a fight while he has yet to. And she's not a boy, that helps in Nanoha now too.

I also like the idea of actual villain villains in Nanoha, even if most of the Hucks aren't very compelling in that category either. Curren's okay though, and Hadis seems kinda promising, even if they revealed too much about him too quickly in my opinion.

I would probably like the Raptors too, if they hadn't been taken out by joke villains and then been immediately forgotten about.

[Akiyoshi]

Oh yeah, i forgot about one of FORCE's most prominent merits. For all the inconsistencies and things that i don't like i couldn't ignore the emerging of several strong, competent and interesting male characters.

Season one did a gret job with Yuuno and Chrono who filled key spots and got their own respective awesome moments but from A's onwards things were pretty harsh to guys on this franchise (even the ones who did better than the rest like Zafira in A's or Zest in StrikerS felt like lacking a bit in comparission with the girls). FORCE suddenly produced an outburst of cool male characters starting with Veyron ...then came Tohma, Deville, Hardis and Carter who are each one efficient and powerfull in their own ways showing they can go toe to toe with most of the overpowered females of the cast (well, not like that's a hard task for EC Drivers like them but at least they seem to be able to give Cypha and Arnage a run for their money as well xD) as also being far closer to the main action and plot than prev-seasons boys xD

And how to forget the most aweome male character this franchise has to offer, an avatar of smoothness and coolness, of course i'm talking about MARTY! He's THE MAN of the Nanohaverse xD!

[bhl88]

Nanohaverse is female paradise... Where the male characters end up being side characters as they grow older xD

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by bhl88

Nanohaverse is female paradise... Where the male characters end up being side characters as they grow older xD

That's the best part about the FORCE guys, most of them are already adults and still kicking all sorts of butt xD

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

His town got blown up, and he wants revenge on who did it. I think you're ignoring a few characters when you say that.

Anyway, I like Isis, and think she'd be a better lead than Touma's been so far, which the story seems to agree with since she's won a fight while he has yet to. And she's not a boy, that helps in Nanoha now too.

You dis Thoma, and then go for Isis... who has no real backstory at all? All we know is that she is the daughter of people who run a security service, and she didn't want people knowing that. Other than that, we have no rhyme or reason to her motivation.

Note that I'll rescind this once we do get more information about her that helps explain her motivation. Until then, she's fairly simple and unexplained. And for the record, I do like her as well (then again, I don't hate anyone in Force).

And Thoma is more than just a blown up town; he has his encounter with Subaru and her friends that changed him, leaving him a conflicted complex individual. One that could just as easily return to the Hucks, kill for vengeance, or stay with the good guys and give up on revenge. We don't know, and that's what I find interesting about him, and how I know he's a complex individual.

Look, Nanoha is by far my favorite character, but even I have to admit her backstory is fairly simple. There is no real conflict there, other than she felt lonely. By comparison to her, Thoma is very complex.

[Justin_Brett]

Complex doesn't necessarily mean good. All of those things you said have been introduced, but they lack genuine effort toward them. Isis doesn't have that problem, so of course I like her over him. And we barely know anything about the Hucks individually either, if you're gonna play that game.

[Kurohane]

^ How is it not genuine? Thoma is one of the most human characters we've seen so far, and his backstory makes sense, except the questionable time frame of when Vaizen was destroyed and his encounter with Subaru.

[Justin_Brett]

Well, the question of whether he'll join the Hucks for one. It could have been suspenseful, but they kind of screwed it up by having him know Subaru for years already. All of their members are outcasts, but he really isn't by the time the story starts.

[Sansker]

Thoma is not that special. His backstory… I have seen it before. Now that doesn’t make him a bad character but to be fair he was just ok to me. I don’t hate him and I kind of like him on the first chapters is the way he is send in to the battle and what he does after that makes me scratch my head a little. He could be more proactive and a little more passion about things, he is way to passive to my taste and I did like him before when he just attacks Veyron when he thinks the Hückebein has something to do with his past and kill 3 innocent people rather than the last bits where he is just saying “nice to see you” to every single antagonist he sees.

[Craxuan]

Play a lot of Visual Novel and you'll see just how 'normal' Thoma is as a protagonist lol...

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Complex doesn't necessarily mean good. All of those things you said have been introduced, but they lack genuine effort toward them. Isis doesn't have that problem, so of course I like her over him. And we barely know anything about the Hucks individually either, if you're gonna play that game.

I already acknowledged that we don't know much about the Hucks individually... but we've already got that glimmer of what made them into their current life. And that aspect, is one I like.

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Well, the question of whether he'll join the Hucks for one. It could have been suspenseful, but they kind of screwed it up by having him know Subaru for years already. All of their members are outcasts, but he really isn't by the time the story starts.

I don't think so. Remember Thoma going emo? He now knows what it's like to be infected, and to fight one's friends. He's going to have empathy for what the Hucks went through, knowing they didn't have someone to help them, except each other. He may very well end up joining them in order to help them on a better path, and possibly because Karen/Curren lets him know they found the murderers of his village.

Think about it... Karen/Curren wants Thoma to join. To do that, she needs to get him to feel those instincts to kill. Offering up the objects of his revenge will accomplish that. Once he feels that, she'll attempt to convince him that no one else will understand, except the Hucks; they are the only ones who can help him. And once he kills, he may feel he has to go on the run as an outlaw.

Sure, this is Nanoha, and so he most likely won't kill.. but it will be interesting if Tsuzuki goes down that route. There is just enough doubt there to make you wonder.

Still, my observation awas more about how you don't like Thoma because he has a backstory and thus rational for his motivation, but you do like Isis who doesn't have the "problem" of having a backstory to explain her motivation? Considering it is generlaly good writing to explain the motivation of your characters somehow, in my eyes, Isis is still lacking. Although I'm mostly hopeful Tsuzuki will address it.

Originally Posted by Sansker

Thoma is not that special. His backstory… I have seen it before. Now that doesn’t make him a bad character but to be fair he was just ok to me. I don’t hate him and I kind of like him on the first chapters is the way he is send in to the battle and what he does after that makes me scratch my head a little. He could be more proactive and a little more passion about things, he is way to passive to my taste and I did like him before when he just attacks Veyron when he thinks the Hückebein has something to do with his past and kill 3 innocent people rather than the last bits where he is just saying “nice to see you” to every single antagonist he sees.

"There is nothing new under the sun."

Every single aspect you can think of in a story, has been done before. The key, then, is in the execution. Is it internally consistent? Does it properly explain motivations and character situations? I never claimed Thoma's backstory was interesting, merely that it did a great job of setting up a complex character. Someone caught between two worlds.

But as far as what happens after the battle, I'm unsure what you mean. He's getting training, which he probably realize he needs. Also, he knows that the TSAB will want to keep a hold of him, so this is the best method to do so. There is nothing else for him to do. His trip was to "find himself" and settle the issue of his feelings of revenge. Perhaps in some way he didn't feel he deserved a happy life, but now realizes that he was just being stupid because of the way Su-chan and her friends fought for him.

Look for him to flash back to this time of training sometime later, near the end of the manga. He'll most likely describe how he felt then.

It's funny that you claim to have seen his backstory before, but you still can't understand him. I, too, have seen it several times before, and so I can make a pretty good guess how Tsuzuki is gonna play him.

[Akiyoshi]

I just hope Tsuzuki cuts all of Tohma's training segment of the story, he likes to be unecessarily detailed with this sort of things and for a moment it felt like StrikerS first 10 episodes all over again ...a training montage plus a couple of scenes will be more than enough to fill that part xDU

[Justin_Brett]

He went emo because the book took control of him, not from anything he did. If he joins because he feels sorry for them, then that's just proving my point - it'll be the only way they could have that happen now and have it seem genuine. I mean, obviously he doesn't care when someone threatens him to his face.

Interesting strategy Curren would have there, as well: wait until the third or fourth time you contact the guy before telling him something that might make him actually want to join.

[Sansker]

Well that is my problem. There is nothing else for Thoma to do. He is the main character and yet he is just sitting down and wait to be told what to do and I think a protagonist should go out and try to do things by himself, maybe try to fix everything on found answers instead of wait to be told by the others. I prefer him to move around and we stick with his point of view. The problem is that Thoma is now push down to a part of something bigger but not an important or relevant part. He is there as kind of an addition to the SD6 and it just doesn’t fill right. But I say talk about good things so I will.

I did like Force until Cypha and Signum’s fight. What happens next is when I think the story went down but until that I was intrigue and wanted to read more. I do wanted to see more Nanoha (I insist, if her name is in the title she needs more room) but Thoma and his story was actually keeping me guessing and he was moving to fulfill something. First was to get Lily out, then to contact Subaru and the rest were just trying to find him. The dynamic on the first chapters had the characters moving over clear and simple objectives which make it interesting to watch.

Veyron’s introduction on the story was something a little odd for Nanoha but good. Standing over the chapel after killing three innocent people just because they were on his way and Thoma realizing this guy had something to do with his past… I was really looking forward to see the rest. And back there all it was really a major complain to me was: “Where is the rest of the old cast?” and I did think making Thoma already know by Subaru was just a laziness from the author to make him fit the story too fast.

Lily and Isis never really did something I could consider important. Isis could be interesting at first, when she mention he identity and I was thinking maybe she was related to the Hückebein or the AEC makers or something and that ended being pointless really. Lily on the other hand was just damsel in distress and not that much a character since we know so little about her. I like her when she could not talk and had problems to walk, really add much to the characters nature. But that is just my take on it.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

He went emo because the book took control of him, not from anything he did.

You may be underplaying Thoma a bit. Remember Hayate being "taken over" by the Book of Darkness? What was Reinforce doing? Fulfilling Hayate's wish that she had made just after having her family killed in front of her. So, while you could argue that it was the book's doing, there was enough responsibility there from Hayate as well.

I'd argue the same with Thoma. Sure, the book may have been messing with his emotions, but we humans have buried emotions. I'd be willing to argue that he has those kinds of feelings deep down, and the book merely brought them out. If you drink enough alcohol, you may end up saying some bad things... but did the alcohol create those things out of thin air? Or were they part of you before that?

Those questions are part of what keeps bringing me back, and what makes me see Thoma as more complex than others would see him. He has a dark part of his personality that we've been given hints to (his desire for revenge, for starters). When it pops out later, when he goes angry or emo (wanting revenge, but wanting to keep his friends out of it, taking it all upon himself), don't be surprised... we've been given ample foreshadowing.

Originally Posted by Sansker

Well that is my problem. There is nothing else for Thoma to do. He is the main character and yet he is just sitting down and wait to be told what to do and I think a protagonist should go out and try to do things by himself, maybe try to fix everything on found answers instead of wait to be told by the others.

So, he attempts to sneak off to do something (what, exactly, he would do, you haven't explained), and the Bureau promptly drags him back and chastises RF6 for not keeping a good hold of him. So they will lock him up instead as a threat.

In short: there isn't anything for him to do at the moment. He's still a danger, and RF6 is only allowed to keep him in the current conditions, because they promised to keep a good eye on him. (None of this was actually stated, per se, but it's not hard to see; Thoma is a threat as an Eclipse carrier, I'd wonder why the Bureau hasn't tossed him into solitary confinement yet).

Although my guess is that he will leave RF6, once Curren/Karen presents him with good enough motive: "I've found the killers of your village, and they are close to getting away. Come with us, and we can help you and protect you. Your friends? What do you think would happen if you lost control again? Do you want to put them in danger? They use magic, and you are anti-magic. Only we can make sure you don't kill innocents."

Of course, Lily and perhaps Isis will end up going with him (and Curren/Karen will provide a way for him to slip out undetected).

But currently, he is getting trained, learning tactics and learning to control his powers. Things he will need when he does confront his killers.

But all I seem to hear from complaints is a distinct lack of patience, ie, "Why doesn't he do things NOW? Thoma and Nanoha should have blasted all the bad guys and won the day in chapter 1, and we'd be over by now!" /whinewhinewhine

[Justin_Brett]

Fulfilling Hayate's wish that she had made just after having her family killed in front of her. So, while you could argue that it was the book's doing, there was enough responsibility there from Hayate as well.

Kind of a bad example considering there was deliberate interference to make that happen. Same with Touma, except the one doing it was the book itself. I do understand the idea of a character being more than they appear, but I think it's hidden a bit too well on him.

And my problem is he actually did stuff in the first couple chapters, but then stopped. Going from what he did in his first appearance to getting beaten up by a joke villain is kinda bad.

Although my guess is that he will leave RF6, once Curren/Karen presents him with good enough motive: "I've found the killers of your village, and they are close to getting away. Come with us, and we can help you and protect you. Your friends? What do you think would happen if you lost control again? Do you want to put them in danger? They use magic, and you are anti-magic. Only we can make sure you don't kill innocents."

Then why not do that to begin with?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Kind of a bad example considering there was deliberate interference to make that happen. Same with Touma, except the one doing it was the book itself. I do understand the idea of a character being more than they appear, but I think it's hidden a bit too well on him.

Considering you know all about his revenge kick, it's hard not to see how that might make someone have a wee bit of darkness in him. If he hadn't of run into Subaru, what do you think might have happened to him?

So, I don't see how it is hidden so much. True, he's suppressing it right now, since he is around people who care about him. But I don't think it's gone.The big question is whether RF6 is getting him some form of counseling, or getting him to a psychologist. Seeing your family and hometown slaughtered, is going to leave a few mental wounds.

Although granted, this is Nanoha, which can seemingly laugh off psychological trauma (Hayate, Vivio). But we can probably presume they got help off screen.

Lastly, take note of his imaginary mental conversation with Veyron, when he was going nuts just prior to Cypha and Signum showing up. Reread Chapter 5, pages 21 thru 26. Also, pay close attention to chapter 7 pages 12 and 13. Or I can just write down the important parts here, where the imaginary Veyron in Thoma's head has a conversation with him:

Veyron: "Wrong. You couldn't fit into something like a family. Because you know what you're really like. You loathe the enemies who destroyed your happiness and place of belonging. You swore, right? To release all that hate you have bottled up. An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. The passion of hate is always just. Submerge yourself in the pleasure of hatred."

This imaginary conversation didn't come from nowhere. It's a classic, almost cliche thing for conflicted heroes, to face down their inner darkness. This is something Thoma will face again in the future, and eventually declare, "No, I won't give in to my hatred. Losing my family and friends was painful, yes. But hate will destroy me, and so I let it go. I don't *have* to get revenge."

So while the book may have made things worse, it merely built on things Thoma already felt.

And my problem is he actually did stuff in the first couple chapters, but then stopped. Going from what he did in his first appearance to getting beaten up by a joke villain is kinda bad.

In one respect, if we go by the tropes(which I can't find the right ones at the moment), good = weak. Bad = strong. A character is strong when an antagonist, but weak when made a good guy. Common story plot point for a reason (as a strong bad guy overshadows the heroes when he becomes a good guy). In fairness, this does usually end up done poorly and showcasing inconsistency. But in Thoma's case, it can be argued the book was automatically making 100% use of his abilities, while Thoma has to actually learn to use them, and learn to do so with Lily.

But let me pose the question to you: What would you have Thoma do? I see this complaint that he isn't doing anything, but I don't see it: he's training and assisting RF6 in the Eclipse case. Which makes sense for where he is right now.

Then why not do that to begin with?

They tried to get him to join(and made a few of the arguments that I put forth), but RF6 interfered too soon and Thoma went a bit nuts. They decided to withdraw rather than try and further contest the matter. Also, at this point, Karen/Curren doesn't know who the killers of Thoma's village is, either. I presume that she is trying to find out, in order to dangle that bit of bait to lure Thoma back on his own.

Getting someone to join you of their own free will, ensures a better chance they'll stay with you, then keeping them captive.

Also, Curren/Karen is using Thoma as a bargaining chip with RF6, ie, "We did you a favor and let you take him. Pay us back by leaving us alone."

Curren/Karen is turning into quite the little Chessmaster.

[Justin_Brett]

I'd imagine they would have when he was a little kid and not suddenly now. I'd like it if they addressed him wanting revenge again somehow though, since the story has pretty much let that be now that there's other villains to deal with.

Veyron: "Wrong. You couldn't fit into something like a family. Because you know what you're really like. You loathe the enemies who destroyed your happiness and place of belonging. You swore, right? To release all that hate you have bottled up. An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. The passion of hate is always just. Submerge yourself in the pleasure of hatred."

Yeah, I remember that. But until he actually does that, I count that as telling instead of showing.

And I'm asking why exactly Curren would call Touma up and threaten him instead of using the actual useful information she probably has now. Even if she does not have it, why do something that would reaffirm his opinion of them as dangerous criminals? Why would anyone who's supposed to be intelligent do that?

[Akiyoshi]

I don't have any problems with Tohma trianing and preparing to face his destiny but i just hope the plot doesn't take too much time on this as that's a plot device with a pretty strightforward conclusion, he trains = he becomes stronger, the end ...one of the big failures of StrikerS was dragging out the training of the forwards a bit too long.

There's no reason why they can't just skip the training and let Tohma do actual important stuff. As far as i read the last post imply the old cast have little to do with the climax of the story as Tohma will be the only one able to actually do something significant so i wonder why they just don't let him do that xDU