Israel, Hamas & the Gaza Strip

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Zippicus

I look at it like this. That area has been the center of conflict since before recorded history, the only thing different now is the names and faces of the people killing each other. That must be some pretty sweet chunk of dirt to make people so crazy over it.

Where even video games talk about this, you know it's big. (I don't know about others, but Saladin's campaign in Age of Empires II touched on this issue. More importantly, the narrator, a former crusader captured and well-treated by Saladin, narrated how the jihad then "changed the nature" of the Arabs, from appreciators of art to bloodthirsty warriors.

Jerusalem is home to many holy places of the three religions. No other city has that distinction.

[bladeofdarkness]

the world can blame israel all it wants
israel isnt doing this in order to please the world
its doing it to keep hamas from firing
and it is working, your just not thinking far enough
say there is a cease fire tomorrow
the hamas leaders come out of their holes and declere "we have beaten back the evil zionsit war machine"
the people of gaza take one look around whats left of their homes and say

"what was the point of it all"
"was it worth the massive loss we suffered, just so hamas can provoke the israeli's"
"we had peace and quite before, we used to have a city, a port, an indestry, now the only thing keeping us alive is international aid"
"what did we gain from all of this"

and these questions WILL BE directed at the hamas leadership and they will be expected to show something in return
the aim of israel is to make the hamas so desperte for a cease-fire that during the cease-fire negotiations they will except what ever terms the israeli's feel like giving them
and refusing just means that the IDF moves in and wipes the hamas out completely (so far they have yet to actually start a full scale ground offensive)
that way the hamas would be unable to show the people of gaza ANYTHING as an achivement in excange for all the pain it caused by provoking israel

the hamas came to power becosue people supported them in their "struggle against the occupation army"
so far all they do is either hide in holes or fire rockets from schools and mosscs
and this does not escape the eyes of the people of gaza
if by the time this is all over the hamas has nothing to show for itself
it will lose control of the gaza strip entirely
from a goverment POV its already lost it (there are no municipal of govermental services in gaza)
its only saving grace is that its millitery wing is still alive
if this millitery wing also proves itself as completely useless (as they are proving themselves so far
the hamas's rule over gaza will end becouse the people of gaza will turn against them
after a while the area will probably come under the PA and fatah's control once more and the peace talks can get back on their way
everyone wins (except hamas)
either that, or they get so scared of the "next" isreali attack that they wont risk it and just stop attacking altogether
worked in lebanon

and things are not as far off from this as you may think
after all the guys who actually run hamas are not in the gaza strip at all (they are in beirut and damasces)
the leaders of the hamas in gaza are all underground
people see this for what it is

it may seem like its a cold hearted way of putting it
but as long as hamas controls the strip there will never be peace (they are after all a religious group)

[RAVNEN]

Somehow I wonder why Israel military use an all out attack tactics.They can always opt a more covert ops approach.Remember Israel has the most advance military tech in the world.I guess Israel want to strike fear their enemy & show the world their true powarrr...

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by RAVNEN

Somehow I wonder why Israel military use an all out attack tactics.They can always opt a more covert ops approach.Remember Israel has the most advance military tech in the world.I guess Israel want to strike fear their enemy & show the world their true powarrr...

more like isreal doesnt want to lose soldiers as much as possible
having been one myself and since my sister and four other members of my extended family are soldiers ATM
i whole heartedly agree
blame hamas for fighting without any concern for their own people

but we do show restraint
what you see now in gaza is nothing compared to what it could be if we reallly didnt care
as it stands leaflets are dropped and cell phones are made and attacks are aborted whenever its too crowded
its not gentle, but its not a whole sale massacre that they claim it is
not even close

@MonkeyDude
since yo stated that you dont know much about the conflict past what you just read then watch this

this is what hamas teaches its children in gaza
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8

this is what is being brodcust on al-manar (hamas TV station)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNuTVhvZ6uM

the hamas creed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umlWYGLixPc

Hamas founding charter

Article 7 of the Hamas Covenant states the following: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharqad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslem).

Article 22 claims that the French revolution, the Russian revolution, colonialism and both world wars were created by the Zionists. It also claims the Freemasons and Rotary clubs are Zionist fronts.

"You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it."[113]

Furthermore, Article 32 of the Covenant makes reference to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion:

"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

and for the record
the hamas has not, to this day turned away from its charter in any way
its leaders never refear to israel as "israel" (only the zionsit entity)
and during the 90"s when israel and the PLO were deep in talks about a peace accord the hamas started its campain of bombings in order to stop these talks
they are not interested in peace
learn more about who you are calling a "partner for talks"

[Claies]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Where even video games talk about this, you know it's big. (I don't know about others, but Saladin's campaign in Age of Empires II touched on this issue. More importantly, the narrator, a former crusader captured and well-treated by Saladin, narrated how the jihad then "changed the nature" of the Arabs, from appreciators of art to bloodthirsty warriors.

Jerusalem is home to many holy places of the three religions. No other city has that distinction.

Ironically, they share many of the spiritual traditions, origins, and biblical figures. And yet they hate each other's guts.

I would rather have Israel partake in covert ops than open fighting like this. That alone results in far less casualties if all they aimed for were rocket sites and command centers with small discreet squads instead of tanks, artillery, and airstrikes.

All this episode does is breed more anti-Israel fighters from the children of dead Palestinians, and thus more violence.

Also, given this report: http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...5092FJ20090111
I can't say I trust the Israelis to calm their trigger fingers too much.

[RAVNEN]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

more like isreal doesnt want to lose soldiers as much as possible
having been one myself and since my sister and four other members of my extended family are soldiers ATM
i whole heartedly agree
blame hamas for fighting without any concern for their own people

but we do show restraint
what you see now in gaza is nothing compared to what it could be if we reallly didnt care
as it stands leaflets are dropped and cell phones are made and attacks are aborted whenever its too crowded
its not gentle, but its not a whole sale massacre that they claim it is
not even close

Well as I had said earlier,Hamas has not been on the right teaching of Islam.If I"m not mistaken there was a a code of war in Islam.Hamas follow half of the code actually.
I've think Israel should use some ground forces consist of commando team,a couple of tanks,satelite uplink & Apache Longbow for close air support.Remember Palestinian does'nt have aircraft.A small ground forces with air cover can actually take out hardened Hamas holding, so civilian casualties can be prevented.

Hey,I was wondering did your Israel ground forces use this type of rifle?
I understand they use the IMI Tavor TAR-21 & couple of American made weapon.Corneshot can actually save more lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CornerShot

All this episode does is breed more anti-Israel fighters from the children of dead Palestinians, and thus more violence.

I agree on this.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by RAVNEN

Well as I had said earlier,Hamas has not been on the right teaching of Islam.If I"m not mistaken there was a a code of war in Islam.Hamas follow half of the code actually.
I've think Israel should use some ground forces consist of commando team,a couple of tanks,satelite uplink & Apache Longbow for close air support.Remember Palestinian does'nt have aircraft.A small ground forces with air cover can actually take out hardened Hamas holding, so civilian casualties can be prevented.

Hey,I was wondering did your Israel ground forces use this type of rifle?
I understand they use the IMI Tavor TAR-21 & couple of American made weapon.Corneshot can actually save more lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CornerShot

its not practical
hamas millitents dont stand and fight (they arent that dumb)
we're seeing it every day
when israeli ground forces come close they run away
the entire gaza strip is filled with tunnals and IED's all over the place
they cant hope to take the israeli ground forces head on so they instead use morters and snipers to try and kill as many IDF soldiers as possible
as well as firing rockets, and those can only be taken out by air attacks since it takes (they mesured) 1 and a half minutes on avarge for a hamas rocket squad to set up, aim, fire, and run back to cover
israel's 1# concern is to prevent ISRAELI deaths (both civilians and soldiers)
preventing palestinian deaths is a distant second
aside from the tactics i already mentioned there isnt much else that could be done

about the corner-shot
i'm not sure

[RAVNEN]

Yeah,I've heard & read about the Hamas tunnel network,it was a cover story in my local yesterday newspaper.Some neighbour country already catch some of this smuggler & look like they smuggle many type of weapon like RPG,AK's,grenade & assortment of weapon.They does'nt find any sort of advanced weaponry so far.They also transport bride for wedding & food like goat.

I agree the tunnel is a vast network & if I'm not mistaken Israel only discover one tunnel complex.Some neighbouring country also make this tunnel a business venture by rent it for a fee.However I do wonder why Israel does'nt try to do anything to stop this tunnel operation.Only the neighbouring country take action by destroying the tunnel or release gas into the tunnel.

[bladeofdarkness]

the IDF air strikes in southern gaza town of raphiah are aimed at taking out these tunnels
there are said to be around 300 or so of those tunnels (its a running joke that the border between gaza and eagpt is standing on air from all the tunnels

but the tunnels i was talking about are not those tunnels
the tunnels i am talking about run from one building to the another inside gaza city
they use these tunnels to go into a building, fire from it, and then run away before the IDF can attack the house
these tunnels are also used to lay ambushes and kidnap soldiers (gilad shalit was kidnapped in such a way)

[Shadow Kira01]

I am also quite knowledgeable of the Middle East crisis. The fact that most people in the world are angry at Israel more than the Hamas over the current escalation of the Gaza Conflict is that the Hamas are poorly-equipped meaning that the majority of the non-combatant civilian death toll numbers and wounded are actually caused by the heavily-equipped Israeli military. If it was the other way around, people would probably be angry at the Hamas instead. People are not blind. On the contrary, Israel would probably ignore the international voices and protests, because they can do absolutely nothing to stop this Gaza conflict and neither can anybody prevent any more civilian casualties or wounded. Pitiful, yet true...

Originally Posted by MonkeyDude

Those numbers probably take in to account the Palestinian people as a whole. Only the propaganda machine is labeling Hamas as a 'terrorist' organization while the Palestinian people regard them as their democratically elected government.

I hate to point out. It has already become reality that any entity that is not supportive of the United States and China, yet are active in military conflicts are considered as "terrorist organizations" even when the real terrorists (in which the international community recognizes) may be the ones doing the labelling, yet it is a fact that it does not matter and that it is also irrelevant when military crisis occurs in the world nowadays.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

or darfur (who's refugees israel is taking care of as well)
and oddly enough no one seems to care too much about that
the people there must be the wrong color :*(

Certainly true that Dafur is being ignored, when the situation is almost connected to Gaza, considering that the weapons the Hamas use (with the exception of their homemade rockets) that killed Southern Israeli civilians are from the same dictatorship regime that supported the bloody military conflict in Dafur. Strangely, Israel don't seem to consider making any moves against the source of their problems, when they could do so. The Hamas don't just get their supplies and weaponry through underground channels but are most possibly supported by some influential nations who are currently holding leadership seats in the United Nations security council which also answers the question as to why the UN is always so toothless.

Regardless of all this, a portion of the casualties and wounded on the Palestinian side are truly innocent and it would be miraculous if stray bullets always avoid them. On top of this, people cannot blame the Hamas entirely for what they have done. After all, the nations who sponsor the Hamas weaponry and supplies are also being supported by the Bush Administration of the United States, a pro-Israeli ally. Ironic!

[Lathdrinor]

I hate to point out. It has already become reality that any entity that is not supportive of the United States and China, yet are active in military conflicts are considered as "terrorist organizations" even when the real terrorists (in which the international community recognizes) may be the ones doing the labelling, yet it is a fact that it does not matter and that it is also irrelevant when military crisis occurs in the world nowadays.

Not true. Russia is against the US. It's not labeled a terrorist state. China was (and arguably still is) against the US. It's not labeled a terrorist state. Same with regimes in South America and Africa. Yeah, we call them bad names, but they're not terrorist unless they use the tactic or sponsor those who do.

And that's what terrorism is - a tactic. It's a means to an end. It's not a complete ideology in and of itself (in the sense of communism or fascism). Sometimes that gets lost in translation. Hamas is not "only" a terrorist organization, but that it uses terrorist tactics is easy to prove.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

Russia crushed Georgia awhile back and the protest and disbelief of the international community had almost no effects.

The disbelief probably wasn't as great as you're making it out to be, partly because Georgia was not 100% innocent. There was evidence that Georgia provoked Russia into a conflict that it knew it couldn't win, and then expected NATO to come full-force to its rescue. NATO didn't, and the situation played out the way it did.

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

This time around, it is the Israeli invasion of Gaza and it seems to be rather similar. Israel is doing what it must to eliminate the Hamas, while coming up with all sorts of unreasonable arguments, yet once again.

Please think. Hamas (and many groups before them) have been firing rockets and sending suicide bombers into Israel with the goal of killing as many Israelis, whether military or not, as they can. This has been going on for years and seemingly any time Israel makes a peace gesture that doesn't involve killing someone, the militant group claims that it's a victory on their end, that it's thanks to their attacks that Israel yielded, and that they're going to up their attacks in response. It partly has to do with the culture and psychology out there.

Israel can, of course, make unreasonable arguments even in that situation. It seems to me that you have unreasonable expectations for what should be done.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Umm, I don't think that's the best example to use when trying to argue that Palestinians aren't desperate. Iraqis aren't in the best of positions after the US invaded and made the situation there a lot worse than it was.

It wasn't an attempt to say whether the Palestinians are desperate or not. I only wanted to say that you don't need to be desperate to fight against a much better-equipped and powerful military. Whether the Iraqis are in a better place or not right now is debatable (and I'd tend to side with you there) but I don't think you can draw a parallel between the Palestinians and the Iraqis in terms of living conditions.

The point of all that is really to dispel the myth that the Palestinians are fighting purely because conditions are bad. I believe that's a part of it, but there's more to it (and the "more to it" is the troublesome part to deal with). The "more to it" is what tended to motivate fighters against the American occupation forces in Iraq as well as Afghanistan.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

And I don't think it's the exact same thing, either. I insist that you're too quick to label them as evil warmongering terrorists and Israel as some sort of victim, when the difference of power between the two countries makes it very obvious that someone is doing something pretty wrong if "hundreds and hundreds of Israelite civilians are dying" (which is complete and utter nonsense).

Nobody is a victim in this situation. Even the non-militants are arguably guilty of not doing more to stop the militant factions on both sides. I do think you're getting too caught up in the numbers, though.

Very few Israeli civilians are dead due to this conflict. Many Palestinians have died. Why do you think that is? My reasoning is as follows: first, obviously there's a difference in equipment being used. The Israeli military has a greater capacity for destruction. However, there's more to it than that. Defensively speaking, the Israelis have bomb shelters and are organized to alert citizens for when they should evacuate to the shelters. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Palestinians have nothing like this. Second, Hamas is intentionally firing from populated areas. Although I don't think you believe the Israeli military's statements that it fires back to the locations where rockets were launched from, assuming that the military isn't lying easily shows why the Palestinian civilian death toll is higher.

I'd also remark that the difference in power is being overplayed. The difference in power is purely destructive. Israel's power does not render its citizens immune to rockets or suicide bombers. I've asked you this question and don't recall a clear response: what should Israel do in response to the attacks? Keep in mind that these attacks didn't start back in November or December. Hamas may be the new attacker in town, but attacks from that region have been going on since as long as I can remember and probably well before I was even born.

In truth, your skepticism behind the Israeli military's actions is healthy. Although I think that saying the IDF is out with a genocidal mission is a bit much (and fails to be realistic with what's happening versus what would likely be happening if that were really the case), the hatred has gone to the level where it's quite possible that certain soldiers are intentionally targeting non-militants. If that is happening it is wrong and should be stopped, and those people should be brought to justice.

In light of what I said above, what bothers me is that you're coming down on Israel for attacking the Palestinian citizens (whether Israel is doing it intentionally or not), but you're completely ignoring the targets of Hamas and the groups that came before them. Those groups never targeted the Israeli military, which is arguably "fair game" in terms of violence. Instead, they were targeting regular citizens. I do not care for a numbers game - anyone who is intentionally trying to kill an unarmed and non-aggressive person is doing something terribly wrong. That goes for both Hamas and the Israeli military. Even if you want to condemn the Israeli military and say that they're intentionally targeting Palestinian non-militants, why do you not condemn the militants? If you ignore the fact that they exist and that they're trying to kill anyone that they can in Israel (and we're just lucky enough to be able to say that they haven't been very successful - but it isn't for their lack of effort) then you're overlooking a critical point about this conflict.

In my mind it is that point that puts Israel into the hard position that it's in. Peace will not come simply by Israel ceasing fire entirely. It won't, because Israel's acts of aggression/defense (call it what you will) were not what led to the attacks on Israel's unarmed citizens in the first place. What, then, should Israel do? I don't think that firing weapons back will lead to peace, but I don't think that doing nothing will lead to that outcome either. And while the latter option would arguably lead to less loss of life overall, it isn't an option for the government. The Israeli citizens would be pissed beyond belief if their government weren't seemingly doing something to protect them. Would you honestly feel any different if it were your country and your government instead of Israel?

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Give them their damn land already. Stop the blockade. Let them get access to water. Let them live however the hell they want. If Israel really wanted to protect their people, they would've done that a long, long time ago.

The sad truth is that much of what you perceive to be Israel's mistreatment of the Palestinians (such as the blockades) were done in response to attack on Israeli citizens. The Palestinians (or perhaps just the vocal radicals) view all of Israel as their land. That's a big problem. From what I know (which may or may not be right) the land originally belong to the Palestinians. The settlers of Israel did not take that land by force - the land was "given" to them by the UN. The Palestinians were arguably wronged by the UN, then. That doesn't suddenly make it all right that the Israelis are on their land. In a perfect world where justice were perfectly served, perhaps Israel would get up and move, and the Palestinians would move back into where Israel used to be.

But look at the situation now: Israel is home to seven million and counting. You can't simply tell everyone there to pack up and leave. While I can sympathize with the Palestinians because something unjust did happen to them, the reality is that Israel isn't going anywhere. They're not getting all of that land back. Israel should make every effort that it can to give useful land to the Palestinians, but as TinyRedLeaf pointed out, the last time Israel gave back a substantial portion of land the militants claimed that it wasn't a gesture of peace but rather a gesture of submission by Israel. In other words, it was used as a rallying call to continue, if not increase, the attacks against Israel. That makes it very difficult to get away performing gestures of good will like that, not least of all because the Israeli citizens would probably have a fit at their government. (Not that it would be right, but that's the reality of the situation.)

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

And, if you allow me the personal jab, it's making you say things I never thought you'd say before.

I'm ordinarily an idealist when it comes to topics like peace and war. When people say that everything would be better if Israel would just stop attacking back, there's a part of me that still believes it. Who would attack a supposed enemy that doesn't attack back and doesn't show ill will?

In this case I feel that there are realistic constraints against that form of idealism. I've cited it twice already that in the Hamas Convenant there is a segment that decrees that peace will only come when all of the Jews are wiped out. Note that it'd be bad enough if it referred to the state of Israel, but it calls for the extermination of the Jews as a people. It would be overly dramatic to say that it's Hitler all over again, and that isn't my intent. I bring it up to show that some people don't care whether Israel is attacking or not. As long as Israel exists, they will attack.

When you're faced with a situation like that, where people are actively attacking and killing innocents, then those people should be removed from society (whether you're into the death penalty or just a lengthy prison sentence, that should be it). If those people don't reside in your country then you should raise the issue with the country that those people do reside in. India and Pakistan cooperating over the November Mumbai attacks to arrest LET members is an example of this. Ideally, that solves the problem. We assume that everyone desires peace or peaceful solutions and that violence universally will not be condoned or tolerated.

The situation was never ideal in Israel's case. I am not going to tell you that Israel never transgressed against its neighbors, because it probably did, just as virtually every single nation on Earth has done at some point in its history. However, when it suffered regular attacks from the Palestinians (not as an act of war, mind you, but acts by militant groups) what happened? Do you remember the days when the Palestinians were led by Yasser Arafat? It wasn't so different from what's happening now: the attacks were not only condoned, they were praised.

Combine that fact with the fact that these people were willing to attack Israel whether Israel was transgressing against them or not. Peace would not come to Israel by simply doing nothing. What could Israel do? What should Israel have done? Stop for a moment and consider that, maybe even ponder it for the rest of the day. We know what Israel did - it started fighting back in an attempt to defend itself. That is the absolute worst option, one that should never be justifiable in a civilized world, and one that most certainly will only make peace harder to reach. But what other option, aside from inaction and just telling its citizens to try and endure, was there?

The idealistic part of me feels that a better solution would have been to try and empower the Palestinians in such a manner that the militants would be viewed as unacceptable fringe elements. Perhaps this would be accomplished by donating money and resources; perhaps somehow else. Good will must overcome all, right? The trouble, once more, was that the Palestinian authority did not want to stop the militants back then, just as it does not particularly want to now (considering Hamas to be the Palestinian authority - even if they did take it by force). Worse, good will by Israel was being neutralized by the authorities. In a rather shocking article I read that a number of Palestinian schools had added "anti-Israel propaganda" into their curriculum. While I don't believe that every kid believes what they hear in school, that's brainwashing the next generation to hate Israel. I don't know; it doesn't seem to me that Israel could do a whole lot, aside from trying to take on the militants itself.

Don't misunderstand me - I don't think that is the best option, nor is it justified simply because it seems to be the only option out there. The truth is that a pro-Israel supporter probably wouldn't even view what I write as an act of coming to Israel's defense. Rather, I feel that there are no "good guys" or "bad guys" in this scenario, but many people are trying to simplify the situation to be able to use those terms. Probably due to the unbalanced numbers of civilian deaths between the two sides, people are labeling Israel as "the bad guy." I'm not saying that what Israel is doing is right, or even that it is doing what it should be doing. I do ask that before you claim that Israel alone is being the antagonist, that the conflict is the fault of Israel, or that the deaths of the innocents could be avoided purely based on Israel's wishes, that you consider the reality of what Israel can and can't do.

I did not support America's entering Afghanistan or Iraq, because it seemed too much like an act of childish revenge. The nation suffered a single terrorist attack - to me, that didn't warrant acts of war and invading other countries. Not by a long shot. Israel has not suffered just a single terrorist attack; it has been suffering attacks for years upon years that targeted anyone living there, and the reasoning behind those attacks was not simply a matter of unfair treatment.

I do not think that was Israel is doing is the right, just thing to do. The problem is, I can't think of a better course of action. And despite my repeating the question and constraints of reality over and over, it would seem that neither can anyone else in this debate, including you.

[MonkeyDude]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

@MonkeyDude
since yo stated that you dont know much about the conflict past what you just read then watch this

this is what hamas teaches its children in gaza
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8

this is what is being brodcust on al-manar (hamas TV station)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNuTVhvZ6uM

the hamas creed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umlWYGLixPc

Hamas founding charter


and for the record
the hamas has not, to this day turned away from its charter in any way
its leaders never refear to israel as "israel" (only the zionsit entity)
and during the 90"s when israel and the PLO were deep in talks about a peace accord the hamas started its campain of bombings in order to stop these talks
they are not interested in peace
learn more about who you are calling a "partner for talks"

This is why I don't watch videos all that often given the overwhelming amount of bias they show. The first video is proof is this and the hilarious comment of "where is UNICEF". UNICEF actually do things other than protecting imaginary children nowadays? A line from the 2nd video struck a nerve here, "we will resist and protect against the Zionist occupation", which is what Israel is doing. While I do not approve of this brainwashing tactic, the topic itself makes sense and advocates an all out resistance against the invaders (that's my take on it anyway). The third video is Fox News...ahahahahahahahahaha not gonna waste my time. As for the Hamas Creed, say what you will, but they were willing to put aside things to go to the negotiation tables and Israel refused. If there was a chance to talk for peace, wouldn't you take it rather than declare them terrorist and impose sanctions on them?

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

I hate to point out. It has already become reality that any entity that is not supportive of the United States and China, yet are active in military conflicts are considered as "terrorist organizations" even when the real terrorists (in which the international community recognizes) may be the ones doing the labelling, yet it is a fact that it does not matter and that it is also irrelevant when military crisis occurs in the world nowadays.

So you admit that the USA and Israel are these so called terrorists then? Since according to a little thing called history, they were the ones who labeled Hamas a "terrorist organization" after their democratically won election. Again the irony was that THEY MADE HAMAS TAKE PART IN THE ELECTION as a show of good faith to the political process. I guess they weren't expecting Hamas to win ey?

[RAVNEN]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

but the tunnels i was talking about are not those tunnels
the tunnels i am talking about run from one building to the another inside gaza city
they use these tunnels to go into a building, fire from it, and then run away before the IDF can attack the house
these tunnels are also used to lay ambushes and kidnap soldiers (gilad shalit was kidnapped in such a way)

These is a clever strategy by Hamas,it like in the Vietnam war.As you say the airstrike could be use to destroy these tunnel network.That explain why IDF use DU shells.To detect this kind of tunnel network need a special kind of sensor tech,I believe the US has been developed them.IDF ground forces can also use MATADOR weapon system to these Hamas rocket position.That way the strike is more accurate than airstrike.The airstrike is the easiest way but this battle is happen in urban cityscape where many civies are located.This is'nt a desert or mountain battle where bomb can be drop to enemy holdup.So airstrike is not the best way,that why Hamas still can fire rocket.

But with IDF already entered the city,they can actually goes CQC by searching for this tunnel network.That where the CornetSHot rifle prove it usefullness.This way more civies casualties can be avoided.

[bladeofdarkness]

for the last time
dont confuse hamas SAYING they want to talk (and then making demends israel wont, cant , and shouldnt except)
to actually wanting to talk peace for real

and about this line

If there was a chance to talk for peace, wouldn't you take it rather than declare them terrorist and impose sanctions on them?

the hamas charter says out right that their aim is to destory israel
as long as it does, we dont have any reasons to talk to them at all
if they want to talk, change their agenda
if they dont change it, we wont talk to them
and if they respond by attacking with rockets...
you see the result in gaza right now

@RAVNEN
the "air strikes" are laser guided bombs
they go where the pilot points them
they dont just drop bombs on the general area and hope for the best

[Demongod86]

All of this silliness about "disproportionate force" is ridiculous.

Know why Hamas can't kill so many Israelis? Because the Jews, as they have over thousands of years, adapted to the adversity and sought to minimize it.

Know why Palestinian civilians are dying? Because Hamas is operating from right within them. If they want to preserve their lives, they'd kick Hamas out at any cost. But instead, they support it because Hamas is Islamic.

This is Islam we're dealing with. Note that I do not use the word "radical" Islam, since in fact, the moderate Muslims are more out of line with the religion than the fundamentalists are (hence the term).

One needs only to look at the nature of the protests happening across the world and that authorities literally being afraid that the mobs will become violent. Is this the way rational people act?

The problem isn't Hamas. The problem is Islam. Until we confront this worldwide cancer and eliminate it from the minds of people completely and utterly, we will always have these kinds of conflicts. In fact, tell me, what's the difference between Islam and Nazism?

-Master race philosophy?
Check (look up: Jizya)
-Antisemitism?
Check (obviously)
-Indoctrination of Children?
Check.
-Blind devotion to a twisted philosophy?
Check.

In the meantime, thank goodness that Obama is working on green energy so that the Middle East runs out of oil revenue. And when it does, I'll be the first one laughing.

What's so utterly disheartening is the kind of foothold that Islam has taken in Britain, when its greatest hero, the great Winston Churchill, has stated this, so if you wish to disagree with me, you can at least listen from the most badass brit to have ever lived.

The following was said by Sir Winston Churchill"

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!
Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.

Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity.

The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die.

But the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world.

Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."




I think it's time to stop the political correctness. You can hate an idea without hating every person that believes in it. Freedom of speech and religion is one thing, but one needs only to look at anywhere that Islam is used to govern to see what the great benefits are.

Once Islam dies, so too will terrorism die.

And as for war, the media honestly has no place reporting on any of it. It's ridiculous that Joe the Plumber is the first guy to say this, but I wholeheartedly agree with him. We look at our soldiers that served in WWI and WWII as heroes, but nowadays, with the media loving to report on war, instead we have near-riots from ridiculous Islamic groups everywhere in the world, including some in America that some dumbass is screaming "GO BACK TO THE OVENS!"

Now the question remains: how many youtube clips and websites do I need to find in order to convince you how ridiculous this entire "religion of peace" is?

[RAVNEN]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

@RAVNEN
the "air strikes" are laser guided bombs
they go where the pilot points them
they dont just drop bombs on the general area and hope for the best

True to that. But the MATADOR system is more reliable & efficient.Here some info on it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MATADOR_(weapon)

And Laser guided bomb have problem & limitations,here it is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_guided_bomb

Once Islam dies, so too will terrorism die.

That the most funny statement I've ever heard in about 2 days.What you think all terrorist in the world are Islam?What a joke.

[bladeofdarkness]

while i like sam harris and christopher hitchins as much as the next guy
i dont think this is the right place for it

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

All of this silliness about "disproportionate force" is ridiculous.

Know why Hamas can't kill so many Israelis? Because the Jews, as they have over thousands of years, adapted to the adversity and sought to minimize it.

No, it's because Israel has jet fighters with precision weaponry and Hamas has homemade rockets.

Know why Palestinian civilians are dying? Because Hamas is operating from right within them. If they want to preserve their lives, they'd kick Hamas out at any cost. But instead, they support it because Hamas is Islamic.

They support it mainly because it gives them some hope, those people who are being blockaded and bombed, not to mention having had their nation taken away.

This is Islam we're dealing with. Note that I do not use the word "radical" Islam, since in fact, the moderate Muslims are more out of line with the religion than the fundamentalists are (hence the term).

One needs only to look at the nature of the protests happening across the world and that authorities literally being afraid that the mobs will become violent. Is this the way rational people act?

You're not understanding the historical and situational facts at all. Also, the Koran, like many other ancient texts, no longer means what it meant a long time ago.

The problem isn't Hamas. The problem is Islam. Until we confront this worldwide cancer and eliminate it from the minds of people completely and utterly, we will always have these kinds of conflicts.

You could say the same about any form of thought.

In fact, tell me, what's the difference between Islam and Nazism?

-Master race philosophy?
Check (look up: Jizya)
-Antisemitism?
Check (obviously)
-Indoctrination of Children?
Check.
-Blind devotion to a twisted philosophy?
Check.

Jizya is a tax system. What the hell are you babbling?
Not all Muslims are antisemitic. The ancient Muslims in fact tolerated Jews and Christians.
All children are indoctrinated.
Any philosophy can be twisted.

I'm calling intolerant scheiße so far.

In the meantime, thank goodness that Obama is working on green energy so that the Middle East runs out of oil revenue. And when it does, I'll be the first one laughing.

How 'bout you laugh while millions of people starve. Yeah, that'd be really funny.

What's so utterly disheartening is the kind of foothold that Islam has taken in Britain, when its greatest hero, the great Winston Churchill, has stated this, so if you wish to disagree with me, you can at least listen from the most badass brit to have ever lived.

Churchill was a racist imperialistic pig. It is known that he gassed thousands of people in his campaigns in Iraq during the '20s.
If Churchchill was badass (not very good role models), then so were Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Regan, Pol Pot, Kim Jong Il...

The following was said by Sir Winston Churchill"

"I AM A PIG."

I think it's time to stop the political correctness. You can hate an idea without hating every person that believes in it. Freedom of speech and religion is one thing, but one needs only to look at anywhere that Islam is used to govern to see what the great benefits are.

The Muslims used to have an advanced empire that was way more civilized than anyone in the West could hope to be, and they were tolerant of other people at that time. Islam only became "terrorist" when people like your Churchill/Saddam Hussein started gassing them and taking away their holy land.

Once Islam dies, so too will terrorism die.

lol. Look up "FARC" or "Japanese Red Army."

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

If Churchchill was badass (not very good role models), then so were Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Regan, Pol Pot, Kim Jong Il...

Well that was a quick violation of Godwin's law. Comparing Churchill with Hitler is laughable.