New Mobile Report Gundam Wing: Frozen Teardrop (2010 Novel)

[Kitsoru]

Originally Posted by Leave The Pieces

Btw, Kitsoru, how much does an ACE cost you? The mag + shipping. If you don't mind sharing, that is.

Here at my place it's $27.00 + $13.00 shipping. I want to subscribe but if that's a rip off, I'll forget about it. Also, I got my FT volumes 1 and 2 for $16.00 each. Is that overpriced or not? I'm poor. I have to know lol.

Yeah, you're getting ripped off, if you're in the USA anyway ^^; For me ACE is only $20 shipped.

[Verona_Price]

Hey everyone,

I've been reading the comments off and on. And have been wanting to post something for awhile. Regarding the "fan hate" for Relena, and my view on the 1xR thing. Thus being a little ramble I've wanted to get out for sometime.

Amazing in the fact that guests that come into Spencer's Gifts don't want to hear a 23 year old Sales Assocate talk about Gundams...huh who would have thought. So I thought someone here may find my view point interesting. Or something, couple things I'm on a few pain killers for my root canal...so if I sound insane....that's why.

Now when I was in 5th grade Gundam Wing came out. I at frist hated Relena. However going back and looking at her character you can see where she's really just a normal girl, that was handed a really messed up hand of cards.

What do I mean? Well in the frist episode she's mad at her dad for not going to her birthday. Alot of "haters" will aruge this shows she's suck up....however when you were 14 going on 15 your birthday was do or die. At least it was for me. So in this regard Relena is just a "normal" teen girl. She wants her way and her dad to be around for her birthday.

In regards to Relena and Heero in the frist couple of episodes we see her acting what we think of as kind of nutty. Now if you pause this fact of her "stalking Heero" and say to yourself.

"When I was a 15 year old girl and I had my frist real crush what did I do...." well I think we can all say we acted a little nuts. I waited by my frist boyfriend's locker all the time even after he dumped me. Teen hormons (spelling?) in the middle of war.

I also wanna talk about the episode Party Night. Where Heero saves Relena's life when he in all reality should have let her die. He says something along the lines of "Why did I save her, what's wrong with me....ect."

Well I think to some extent its again teen hormons (spelling) kicking in. Or l-o-v-e. Or I'm just reading far too into a cartoon.

Ramble done so two questions.

Any new pictures (I love the FT pictures they make me happy in my pants lol)

And what would one say is the "Gundam" Timeline starting from the frist or what in theory should be the frist Gundam story all the way up to one of its alternate "endings"

[Kitsoru]

Originally Posted by Verona_Price

Any new pictures

Nope

Originally Posted by Verona_Price

And what would one say is the "Gundam" Timeline starting from the frist or what in theory should be the frist Gundam story all the way up to one of its alternate "endings"

...Huh?
If you're referring to that whole thing Sunrise decided to hint at about Turn-A being the end timeline for "everything".... then here's my piece on that:
UC, AW, and CC? Yeah, they might definitely be part of the same timeline. Especially since AW is so heavily implied to be an end to UC.
But I think there's no way in hell that with the timeline Sumisawa's established for After Colony/Mars Century that it could be part of that, since he states it began in ~1950's AD. We'd be in around 2100-2200 AD right now, in FT.
And Future Century is well, sort of... um. Unique. On its own. So
CE and AD have already been stated not to count for this because they came after Turn-A.

[Deacon Blues]

My Gundam Ace shipped this morning so I should have the latest chapters tomorrow if I'm lucky. I'll put pictures up on the blog

[Kitsoru]

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

My Gundam Ace shipped this morning so I should have the latest chapters tomorrow if I'm lucky. I'll put pictures up on the blog

Yay!
I really like how the onomatopoeia graphics are looking on Glory, btw. Unnecessary, yes, but very pretty.

[IkuzeMinna]

You know, I don't get it. Honestly. Relena looking like Katrina makes sense since she's her daughter (not granddaughter, Mr. Sumizawa). But Heero looking like Heero Yuy? I'm starting to wonder if Sumizawa has forgotten that he made Treize related to him, not Heero.
Plus, I don't see where this whole romance thing is going. Aside from catering to the 1xR base without really catering to it, what is he trying to do? Make Treize Zechs' uncle?

GOTD is looking better although I must say, I'm a little miffed that they changed the Tallgeese to some old space Leo/Greif/whatever. The Tallgeese was a suicide MS and it took guts and serious skill to just pilot it. Changing it to some mass produced suit that most people could handle... no sir, don't like it. I'm not happy about the tweak in Mei Lan's badass. >_>
And what's up with Shenlong's "new" sword? Going for a career as a butcher?


As for the "Zechs, the douchebag" and "Relena's rudeness" debate, allow me to voice my thoughts.

Zechs first. While I don't doubt that he loves his little sister like any good brother would, I'm hesitant to say that he did what he did for her sake. Taking revenge on his family's murderer was definitely a personal vendetta. And I think that liberating Cinq from the Alliance was him fulfilling his duty to his people as heir to the throne (even if he thinks he's unworthy), not giving Relena political power. Relena herself didn't exactly jump at the opportunity to rule, either; from the moment she learns that she's a Peacecraft to the time she actually assumes the position as Cinq's sovereign a lot of time passes. I would delve into this further but it's late here.
So yeah, I believe that Zechs was doing a lot for his country, not necessarily Relena. If he were geared that much toward her he'd been in Noin's place as her advisor, not off in space playing ambassador. After all, he was the one to be brought up as a Peacecraft, not Relena or Noin.
But he always kept his distance to her. After deciding to go for revenge, that was it. The moment Zechs Marquise was born he cut his ties with her, for Zechs Marquise meant war and he didn't want Relena anywhere near it. That and the whole guilt-tripping about blemishing the Peacecraft name and being unworthy and blah. Still, whenever they did end up in one place he'd make sure to always protect her. In EpZ, in Antarctica and even on Libra.
Talking about Libra, in the hugging scene Relena wanted to hug her brother. But she wasn't sure if the man holding her was him or Zechs Marquise. I think that says a lot, both about Relena's relationship with her brother as well as who Zechs and who Milliardo is (to her and in general). On that note, Zechs seemed a little hurt that she rejected him. Here he is, glad to see his little sister again and then he gets told off. Then again, it was his own fault. Oh well.


Now about Relena being rude. Hmm.... it's funny, I think she is occasionally rude in the beginning but I would've cited completely different scenes than SkullFaerie. When she told Romefeller that the Gundams will have their hides, yeah, that was definitely out of line. Even if it was true. And I also think it's quite rude to disappear from your own birthday party before even blowing out the candles without a good excuse. If I were her guest and I was told she ran off because her classmate told her that her other classmate might be at a military harbor, I'd go 'wtf'.
As far as Noin and Sally are concerned, well, she was a little sassy but I really didn't mind that. She did criticize Noin a lot but that was mostly because no one ever told her stuff. How should Relena have known that Zechs was her brother and that he did all he did for his kingdom and family? Although I must say, "showing Relena how dirty war can be" by slaughtering Heero in front of her was one of the stupidest ideas and lamest excuses he ever came up with.
Way to go Zechs, traumatize your little sister by killing the guy she's possibly crushing on right in front of her. It will definitely steer her in the right direction.
Chewing out Noin for building an army in Cinq was justified, too. She was turning her into a hypocrite, after all. And considering Cinq's image and people's hopes in it, it might have crushed the belief in total pacifism completely if even Cinq reached for weapons. Then again, if Cinq was crushed it would've been bad, too. ...yeah, they were pretty screwed. Relena really made the best decision she could in that mess. And her awesomeness was so great that it later caused her to become Queen. xD

The other stuff I'll add after sleeping. I don't trust myself to make sense right now.

Oh and about the 90's style: I like the 90s.

[Leave The Pieces]

@ SkullFaerie

Still writing my response. When I'm finished, I'll put it on this post.

Spoiler for Response to SkullFaerie:

I will ignore the offensive part here to answer the question.

If you're talking about my usage of the word "stupider", let me clarify who it's directed at.
It was directed at me. Kind of like, paying out on yourself to show people you're aware that the question you just asked is stupid and yet, you still felt the need to ask it out... simply because you're a dork.
It wasn't directed at you. Woops.

Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with the writers writing the characters deeming Relena the better choice to rule.

Noin couldn't possibly rule the kingdom because... she's not a Peacecraft...????
Zechs, on the other hand, could've ruled as he is older and way more experienced (so I agree with you on that) but it wouldn't feel right. The kingdom is, after all, a pacifist nation.
It's hypocrisy if it was Zechs who ruled as he was a soldier. "Soldier" and "pacifist" - that's fire and water.

I'll drop the issues because I don't think we're ever going to agree as you just admitted that you think Wing writers weren't the only one that did this over promotion. The reason why we disagree is because of our personal preferences and judgement on what is over promotion and what is not. Tbh, I don't know any other anime that committed this "too much promotion" crime other than Gundam SEED and 00. And I've seen heaps of anime. Especially the ones from the 90's.

Although, if you specified a certain genre... meaning shoujo, I'm with you.
Most shoujo anime are overly promoting their lead chicks indeed. Then again, it's called shoujo for a reason.

She might be able to justify that tone towards Pagan, considering he's the Butler, but generally, you're supposed to treat your staff with a nicer tone of voice.

When did she even address Pagan as if he were nothing more than a servant to her????????????? No seriously, genuine question here. Cite a scene? I cannot remember (sometimes I can be a little too forgetful it's not funny).

Anyhow, I'll be quite frank. I do not like how, to me, you sound as if her tone's being snobbish is non-debatable... when it IS. Like, you're not acknowledging the fact that, maybe for you, the tone is bad but for someone else, it’s not.

So anyway, cite a scene, please and quote the exact lines so we can see if it really is just a subjective thing or an established fact. Then maybe I’ll finally understand why we disagree so much, then I’ll probably FINALLY shut up. I’m so intrigued right now it’s not funny. TT^TT

It's not even necessarily what she says, but the tone of voice she uses.... though I think sometimes the way she addressed Noin was pretty unnecessary too.

Her tone could be misleading and misinterpreted, hence I never say that people’s accusations of her being rude is non-debatable. *sigh* I didn’t say you cannot prove she’s rude, either, btw. I said: You cannot prove she’s rude ANY MORE THAN I CAN PROVE SHE’S THE OPPOSITE—NOT ENTIRELY, BUT OPPOSITE NONETHELESS. Bottom line: I wish you’d acknowledge that her “rudeness” is debatable. You can’t just say with all certainty that she is rude. If you do acknowledge that it is debatable, then I apologise. It just sounds to me like you don’t.

Also, have you seen the Japanese version? While I think Lisa Anne Beley did a good job with Relena, I don’t think she was the best choice for the role. Relena's tone in the ED is a bit more accentuated than the one in the JD, imo.

I'm trying to have a friendly and fun discussion here.

And I'm relieved as much as I’m delighted to know that you are. But I must ask you that you please word your statements a little more... neutrally (I think that's the word I'm looking for). Your statements are just a little too bold for me.

I know you said it’s not ill-intended in the first place, but it could be taken the wrong way as, at times, it would seem there's no other way to take it besides the "wrong way". Which then, doesn't make it the wrong way now does it, if it's the ONLY way? Like this one:

based on what you said in this post, you have a somewhat distorted idea of Relena.

What a bold statement. Dude, that's an Ouch. With a capital O. This just sounds so... judgemental.

You know, I don’t think I can ever have the guts to tell anyone I’m supposed to be having a canon debate with that they "have somewhat distorted" image of the characters, be it their favourite ones or not, and THAT is why they’re disagreeing with me -- even if, say, deep down, I think they have. I won’t be able to SAY it because I don’t think I have the right.

Excuse me, but who’s to say what’s distorted and what’s not? Aren’t we disagreeing here because our interpretations of the canon stuff contradict each other? Just because I disagree, that doesn’t mean I’m CLAIMING “You’re wrong”. I simply disagree. Saying you’re wrong and disagreeing with you are two different things.

Now do you see what I mean by you sounding like you think none of the things you claimed was non-debatable?

I think I know one of the reasons why we disagree so much and that I have a feeling this debate will end no where. You like her DESPITE having these flaws. Hence, you keep pointing it out.

The reason why I don't find it necessary to point them out, even though I know they were there, is because... I like her BECAUSE of these flaws. Not DESPITE them.

Like I've been saying, she changed so I see no reason why I have to point out she "used to be a brat" when now she "has matured". For me, it can no longer define her so it’s meaningless to mention it now, because her transformation has superseded it. Besides, if it weren't for these flaws in the first place, there would be nothing about her to develop and she'd be a Mary Sue.

just trying to make them go away and ignoring them and denying them or as you say "justifying" them away is imo, just as bad as ignoring her good sides and only seeing her perceived flaws.

If it's my “justifying” her flaws that's so wrong to you, there’s nothing I can do about that. You see, another thing we disagree on is the use of that very word, “justify”. Here:

But you are. You seem to be trying to justify every flaw she had away. / You keep pointing out that you think she's right

Yes, I justify every flaw she has. But not justify them "away".
AND no, I never pointed out she was always right. I wish you'd stop trying to "use my words against me", when they're NOT EVEN MINE to begin with.

I never pointed out she was always right. Or did I? When? I implore you to quote it with my username on it. ALL I said is that I can “justify” it. Maybe I should’ve said “Every flaw she has is justifiable to me.” But that doesn’t make it any better for you, does it? It only made it worse, didn’t it? So here, bear with me.

FOR ME, just because a flaw is justified... it doesn’t change the fact that it IS a flaw, it always has been and it will always be.

Whereas you seem to think that I think that when a flaw is justified, it can no longer be considered a flaw... because it’s been justified.

Hence, your strong disagreement with my saying it’s justified/explained all the time. Because you think that once I justify it, I no longer acknowledge it as a flaw. Unfortunately or fortunately(?), that’s not the case.

So, going back to your accusation that I keep pointing out that she’s always right. No, I didn’t keep pointing out that she’s always right.

A) Because not once did I ever say she's always right in the first place, and if I did, like I said, please quote it. Maybe I was drunk or high when I wrote it. All I said was that I find it justifiable because it was understandable. And it was understandable... simply because it was explained all the time. There were always reasons for it.

B) Imo, just because one thing has been justified, it doesn’t mean it’s right.

This is in NO WAY related to Relena, but just for the purpose of illustrating how I differentiate the word “justified” from the word “right”.

Here’s Chick A, she trips Chick B. And because Chick B is not very nice, she trips Chick A too.

Question 1: Is Chick B’s getting even Steven on Chick A justifiable? Why?
Answer: YES. Because it’s understandable why she did it. Chick A tripped her first.

Question 2: Is Chick B’s getting even Steven on Chick A right? Why?
Answer: NO. Because while it’s understandable why she did, the fact remains, there are other, BETTER ways to deal with it.

Question 3: So you're saying it’s wrong that she did it?
Answer: Well, that’s subjective. While it is not right, who’s to say it’s wrong (meaning it’s repulsive)? What’s right and what’s wrong is not always as simple as black and white. It’s one of those things in life we call the grey areas.
What we know for sure, however, is that it IS NOT right and it can and will NEVER be right. And yet, it’s still understandable.

So... going back to Relena. All the “bad” things that she said and did can be justified? Yes (for me). Why? Because (for me) they’re understandable. And they’re understandable because they were explained all the time.

So does that mean they were right, because they can be justified? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Heck, no! Why? Because there SURE were other, better ways she could’ve done things... but she didn’t which is yes, a shame.

HOWEVER, the fact remains that what she said and did are very understandable as they always had reasons. Which doesn’t make them definitely wrong, either. Grey areas.
That’s what I was trying to say.

The point is, because there is such strong hate for Relena, her fans are equally rabid in loving her, and so far, I have yet to have a sane discussion about her character and I find that a shame.
As soon as someone points out a flaw, someone will definitely go down on you in an aggressive kind of way and accuse you of hating.

I find this very arrogant, I have to admit. You have YET to have a sane discussion where no one went down on you and accused you of hating as soon as you criticise?
So right now, this discussion we’re having is not sane? When I didn’t even accuse you of hating or anything?

The way you said that just sounds like you only deem a discussion about her character “sane” when NO ONE disagrees with you. And because you have yet to have a discussion about her where no one disagreed with you (like this one we’re having right now, because I only disagreed with you, I never accused you of hating), then you have YET to have a “sane” discussion about her because this discussion we're having right now doesn't count -- simply because I disagreed.

That’s kinda childish, imo. Just because a fan of hers or two always disagreed with you in all the discussions about her you’ve had, it does not make those discussions not “sane”. And just because her fans disagree, that automatically means they’re rabid.
While there are those who ARE rabid, I must ask that you don’t generalise like that.

For your information (and I don't mean that in a smarta$$ way like how Hollywood uses it in the movies), a lot of her fans tend to be reluctant to disagree with non-yaoi fans/non-haters' criticisms because they get accused of being exactly what you said, “equally rabid” in loving her. Which is synonymous to saying their blind to her flaws. Now THAT is a shame. Because they can’t even defend her without being accused of rabidly loving her. So... quoting your own words, “the opposite extreme”.

Forgive me for being insolent but I have to ask: have you ever considered the possibilities that maybe it’s YOU who said something that wasn’t very pleasing and that’s why there are always people out there who disagree with you? Not because they're simply all rabid...?

PS I only posted the responses I thought were most important. I have yet to answer the other topics such as the Zechs vs Relena thing, Relena siding with Heero rather than Zechs, etc. I haven't finished writing the responses for those yet but when I do, I'll put it on one of my blogs and post the link. I'm starting to get really embarrassed about the length of my posts. They're just too long and I'm a fail at trying to be short.

~

One little thing, though.

@ IkuzeMinna

The reason why I refuse to use the words "rude" and "bossy" on Relena (her early self) is because, to me, they sound as if they CAN define her. Which is ridiculous, because one can also say she's "polite" and it would be just as legit as the claim she's "rude".

For instance, when she and the VFM landed on Earth, I thought it was very "polite" of her, the way she handled the situation. "I understand you have to take him. I'm capable of finding my own way home so please don't trouble yourselves." (Obviously, not those exact lines but you get that.)

So that goes to show that while she's "rude", she's also "polite" -- which, to me, is a statement that just sounds absolutely ridiculous (I'm NOT saying you or anyone else said it) because one person CANNOT be both, especially at the same time. I hope I'm making sense. (I can elaborate on it further so if it's not making sense, please don't hesitate to ask.)

So, anyway, it miffs me every time someone goes saying "She's rude" and ends it there (hyperbole) because it's not criticising her, it's defining her (I'm not saying you or anyone else said that, btw). And the funny thing is one can say "She's polite." and it'll be just as accurate.

Personally, I find it incorrect when one uses either words on her (at least, on her early self, her developed self was very polite and professional) because she's lying in the grey areas between them. So what words then? Childish, unreasonable (again, I can elaborate on that, just say the word ) and impulsive. Had those been the words used to criticise her and not the definite-sounding "rude", I wouldn't disagree. EDIT: Same is true when someone praises her for being "polite". I would still disagree. Disagreeing is very different from saying "You're wrong", btw. I'm well aware I do not have the right to say anyone's wrong on anything. But I can disagree, nevertheless. I hope that makes sense.

PS I also love the 90's. The anime in that decade pretty much raised me lol.

EDIT again:

Originally Posted by allison13

Fujisan finally shipped out my FT vol 3, and they quoted me about $17 including shipping. I haven't checked the charge yet, though. ACE is around $20 including shipping from the same place.

Edit: sorry, I know I'm not Kit Figured I'd just throw this out there anyway.

Edit again: Leave The Pieces, where did you order FT 1 and 2 from?

Lol no worries, and many thanks for the response! I sent you a PM. ^_^

EDIT AGAIN: Thanks, Kitsoru, for the response.

EDIT AGAIN : Response to SkullFaerie partially added.

[Deacon Blues]

Originally Posted by Kitsoru

Yay!
I really like how the onomatopoeia graphics are looking on Glory, btw. Unnecessary, yes, but very pretty.

I'm running out of word choices

[Faerie]

Spoiler for Response to IkuzeMinna and Leavethepieces:

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

Plus, I don't see where this whole romance thing is going. Aside from catering to the 1xR base without really catering to it, what is he trying to do? Make Treize Zechs' uncle?

You know, I'm guessing before we know it, everyone will be related to everyone. In fact, we'll find out the teddybear is Dorothy's long lost sister.
There's loads of plot lines, loads of time lines, and they end up as one hot mess so far. It will probably make some kind of sense eventually, depending how much crystal meth you're on at the time =D

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

As for the "Zechs, the douchebag" and "Relena's rudeness" debate, allow me to voice my thoughts.

LOL, this sounds like a hot contender for his next codename. You know... after he got fed up with "Wind of Cyrene".
Then he'll be moving at 3x the speed of a normal douchebag. sigh...
Btw, I like him for being a douchebag. I have a weak spot for douchebags. His guilt trips and self-image issues on the other hand always irked me to no end. He really needed to quit those.
But I guess Wing people had a bit of issues with these in general... the whole "oh no, I killed someone. its war, and all but nvm oh... now i'm worthless and tainted and hey, I think I should just go crazy..."
This got addressed to a certain extend iirc, but I remember it used to really bother me at the beginning, because I don't think it's such a realistic philosophy in a war, where people do what they need to do- up to a reasonable extend of course, excluding war crimes and the like.
I thought Unicorn got it very nicely in this respect, regarding the talk between Banagher and Marida in Ep 2.

Relena herself didn't exactly jump at the opportunity to rule, either; from the moment she learns that she's a Peacecraft to the time she actually assumes the position as Cinq's sovereign a lot of time passes.

Sure, and that is understandable though. Tbh, I always thought he was a huge douchebag for handing responsibility to a kid, and expecting her and Noin to figure it out for him.
Think about it, that could have backfired so badly, if Relena had proven to be unsuitable for the role... she was really young after all, and she did have to mature considerable despite having the necessary qualities in theory (which he probably didn't know before)

Still, whenever they did end up in one place he'd make sure to always protect her. In EpZ, in Antarctica and even on Libra.

I pretty much agree with your analysis. Thing is, yeah, he might not have done everything with Relena in mind, but she did play a role in the decision making process.
And I don't see her being thrown into all this completely against her will

by Zechs

- there were other contributing factors, the assassination of her dad, the political development in general. It's not as if Zechs was like "ok here I am, I know you have squat to do with all this, but here is a kingdom. Good luck!".
She was already involved to a certain degree, meeting Heero, being the daughter of VMD, etc.
Although he still s a douchebag for giving her Cinq and going off playing ambassador.

Talking about Libra, in the hugging scene Relena wanted to hug her brother. But she wasn't sure if the man holding her was him or Zechs Marquise. I think that says a lot, both about Relena's relationship with her brother as well as who Zechs and who Milliardo is (to her and in general). On that note, Zechs seemed a little hurt that she rejected him. Here he is, glad to see his little sister again and then he gets told off. Then again, it was his own fault. Oh well.

I like this statement =) it sums the scene up pretty well, and I also agree with the separation of Zechs and Milliardo she makes there.
And you expressed what I was trying to say about this scene better than I did. He's got only himself to blame, but it still left me feeling a bit sorry for him- or rather it is pretty sad considering they're siblings and leaving out the circumstances.
Although she was obviously right.
(someone like Milliardo could've probably done with a hug though, it might've helped...)

When she told Romefeller that the Gundams will have their hides, yeah, that was definitely out of line. Even if it was true. And I also think it's quite rude to disappear from your own birthday party before even blowing out the candles without a good excuse. If I were her guest and I was told she ran off because her classmate told her that her other classmate might be at a military harbor, I'd go 'wtf'.

Your examples are better hands down. I was a little reluctant to cite the Romefeller scene, because she was very correct in that instance, and I of admired her guts for doing it.
Oh the other hand, there's a difference between right and appropriate, and I guess one of the things we all learn growing up is, just because you're right, doesn't mean you can blurt it out whenever you feel like it.
It doesn't really help her case, and it makes her look insolent- not necessarily to the viewer, but to Romefeller and everyone who holds power there. Which can easily mean, no one will take her seriously in the future, so that was a dangerous move, tactically.
What I'm trying to say is, it's not a good move for a politician who wants to establish themselves- even for an established one, I don't think it's wise to say "Hey, the terrorists will get you". Think people have stepped down for less than that
Ballsy, nonetheless.

And I totally forgot about the birthday party. You're right, that's a very good example, considering these people are supposedly her social network up until meeting Heero, possibly considered her "friends", or at least acquaintances. No matter how you look at it, it's bad manners.

Although I must say, "showing Relena how dirty war can be" by slaughtering Heero in front of her was one of the stupidest ideas and lamest excuses he ever came up with.

LOL. true... it takes "tough love" to all new heights.
She did have to learn the harsh realities, because she was indeed very naive about war and the related politics,but I'm just not sure that was the way to do it...

Chewing out Noin for building an army in Cinq was justified, too. She was turning her into a hypocrite, after all. And considering Cinq's image and people's hopes in it, it might have crushed the belief in total pacifism completely if even Cinq reached for weapons. Then again, if Cinq was crushed it would've been bad, too.

that's the thing though. Obviously there was a huge deal of hostility towards Cinq, and there's a huge difference between self defense and a military designed for offensive.
Imo no one can come down on any country for establishing the means to defend themselves IF attacked. Especially if that kingdom had been burned down previously. Pacifism is one thing, getting cut down while doing nothing another. It wouldn't have helped anyone if Cinq had gotten crushed again. It didn't happen, luckily.
Still, I can't see it logically affecting Cinq's credibility, and Old Peacecraft was a bit silly to not consider it. In that way, I sometimes see total pacifism as a form of extremism that isn't healthy or good.
I'm not sure, but FT seems to sort of be going down that route with the PPP- thing. That's definitely not a healthy way to ensure peace. It's a bit like communism- nice idea but doesn't work.

Seriously, even the neutral states in our world have a military. A strong one at that, because they wouldn't be able to defend their neutrality if they faced invasion otherwise, loosing their ideals.
See: Switzerland.
bad example: Belgium, that claimed neutrality but was just run over land ignored- ike taking candy from a baby.

Oh and about the 90's style: I like the 90s.

of course, but it isn't faultless (or rather, mindsets have changed a little)

Originally Posted by Leave The Pieces

It wasn't directed at you. Woops.

ah, ok. Let me just clear up one thing right here, so I can take out repetitions further below:
I was being a bit extreme, I admit and apologize, because I took offense from the way your previous post was written. The way it was worded sounded really patronizing and partially insulting (especially but not limited to the addressed you used, such as "Cuppycake" etc). I see that this is possibly due to misunderstandings so I won't dwell on it, but yeah... I kind of reacted to that in my last post, that's why I didn't hesitate to point out what I didn't like.

Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with the writers writing the characters deeming Relena the better choice to rule.

Me neither, it's not what I meant. I am referring to the way this was portrayed, eg the whole "we're all unworthy, we all suck so bad, relena is the only one who is pure an untainted and therefore she's one only one in the world who can save us" thing the show had going on.
Ok, so there is a couple of billion people in the world, a couple million intellectual elites, out of which a good few are politically minded, out of which in turn a good few hundred thousands will have a pacifistic mindset, and among which there is bound to be a good few with the same characteristics, qualities or backgrounds to succeed in this venture.
Yes, Relena is good. Yes, she is the main character and has the necessary qualities. She doesn't, however, at this point hold any credentials or stories of success that warrant this amount of praise.
Because of this, imo it would've been better to tone down the way the show itself praises her until much later, because it can be seen as annoying or unnecessary at this point.
IIRC many people who do dislike her have had some complaints among the lines that she's "some perfect little princess who wears pink and...lol idk. Some silly things like that"- but if you analyze this complaint a little (... I know... why bother But bear with me), it seems that they got this idea from the way the show chose to promote her, when there wasn't yet a reason to do so.
Because of this I think, this unnecessary (though common, especially like you say for shoujo!! But also shonen, although you notice it less cause it's usually the guys who get this push) promoting contributed at least a little to the Relena hate- beyond the whole yaoi-issue. It definitely agitated people further.
The reason why this is important is, it didn't just occur in some subconscious way to the yaoi population of the fandumb, but also to relatively normal (I hope =D) fans like myself.
And although it doesn't make me dislike her, or it doesn't bother me very much, I still didn't like this.
It's a minor thing, but it can make a difference imo.

Noin couldn't possibly rule the kingdom because... she's not a Peacecraft...????

=D she is now. Jokes.

It's hypocrisy if it was Zechs who ruled as he was a soldier. "Soldier" and "pacifist" - that's fire and water.

I tried to make a bit of an argument about that above in response to IkuzeMinna.
I don't think at all pacifist and soldier is mutually exclusive. There can be reasons to take up arms for example as protection, or being drafted into the military.
You can wish to protect your family, and this might be the only way you can, yet you can still have a philosophy that does not believe in violence.
For example, if the violence you are practicing is in response to an aggressor, which you have not provoked (although the Peacecrafts do a good bit of provoking, Romefeller would argue), and you are reacting to protect, it's a different thing than being the aggressor.
Or, because you are in a situation where pacifism is not an option because of an aggressor that can not be negotiated with and would only see a great deal of innocent people slaughtered (we have those examples in history, I needn't mention them. Let's call them "fanatic autocrats". There are also fanatics in general, eg terrorists etc. In other word non-negotiable aggressors).
Arguably, Romefeller is such an enemy.
Zechs crossed some other lines, admittedly in his quest for revenge, so he does sort of disqualify, but well, that's what redemption is for. Humans make mistakes, and imo a man who has made mistakes and learned from them is not a hypocrite but a better man, and potentially better suited for the role than someone who had never made any of those experiences. That said, Zechs wasn't suitable because he's a self-loathing bag of issues. He might've become suitable by the end of EW, but this can't be said for sure, so overall I do think Relena was the right choice here, of course.

Tbh, I don't know any other anime that committed this "too much promotion" crime other than Gundam SEED and 00.

It might be your personal preference, or maybe you just don't notice it, because you happen to love the characters this affects. I can understand that, because it happens to me too
(For example I never mind that Zechs or Char are

too

badass as a pilot to be true. Even though it's.. argh)
But interesting you think this about 00 because I think it hasn't done this- except in the case of Marina, who is called important for no reason whatsoever and then just fizzles out unnoticed.
Which characters do you think 00 overpromoted?

Anyhow, I'll be quite frank. I do not like how, to me, you sound as if her tone's being snobbish is non-debatable... when it IS. Like, you're not acknowledging the fact that, maybe for you, the tone is bad but for someone else, it’s not.

In some cases it is quite debatable for sure- no reason to deny that, for example the Noin ones. Or the Pagan ones. Personally I didn't like how she speaks to them. Tbh, I don't mind how she speaks to Pagan that much, I was more miffed by how she bosses Noin around.
I want to tell her "Hey, she's older than you, she's more accomplished than you, and she probably knows better than you. And even if she doesn't, that's what you're supposed to assume, because that's what people with manners do. So you can sit down and be a bit more polite in your requests (or demands. She often sounds as if she's demanding, instead of asking or requesting)"
This is debatable, if you think she has a legitimate reason to apply this kind of tone, or if you don't mind the tone.
But me, personally, I'm bothered by it, because I think you don't behave that way if you have manners.

It's also easy to display manners in a calm situation such as the one you cited (landing on earth with VMD, and him being swept away for work).
You see, I think the people with real manners are those who display them in any situation, that is treat everyone with the tone and words you would want to be treated with, not just when people from daddy's work are watching, and then you can be inappropriate when you feel like it. IkuzeMinna made the better examples, and I my response to those is also relevant to this point =) Trying to avoid repetition.

You don't have to agree with this, but imo, there are instances where her rudeness is debateable, and then there is those where it just isn't, and it's pretty factual (like IkzueMinna mentioned, the birthday party and Romefeller are really good examples of that).
Thing is, I believe this is on purpose. I believe she was purposefully portrayed as being occasionally rude and immature etc, so that she could grow out of it, and become an actual lady in time (she wasn't at the beginning. She just acts on impulse and what she wants too often to be considered a well-mannered lady. Mannered, yes. But not yet well mannered.)
And I

like

this. If she had gone through that development before the start of the series, we would've had Lacus, and that would've been boring.
Personally, I liked Lacus for the way she always displayed a friendly, positive approach to everyone, no matter the circumstance, but it can seem unreal and it did more often than not thanks to Morosawa.
Sorry, just trying to say I like both approaches. I loved Fllay as well, even though she has none of Lacus' manners, despite being a rich girl in a similar upbringing.
To me, early Relena was sort of a mixture of Lacus and Fllay- some of Lacus' manners, some of Fllay's "Little snotty miss" behavior (of course there are huge differences between these 3, no need to point it out I just mean these 2 characteristics I've named)

So she showed signs of having good manners and being a potentially great leader, but she also showed negative signs, and I like this, absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I got the impression that you don't want to admit she had these characteristics, therefore I was trying to point them out to you.
The way I understand it, Relena started out as a bit of a brat, that matured into a good leader and a well mannered girl.
How would you describe her development then?

Also, have you seen the Japanese version? While I think Lisa Anne Beley did a good job with Relena, I don’t think she was the best choice for the role. Relena's tone in the ED is a bit more accentuated than the one in the JD, imo.

I've got no idea who Lisa Anne is, I've never seen the english version, sorry. I don't like the way english voice actors sound, to me personally, they always sound childish. Not sure if it's because they're not good enough (the ones who voice cinema movies are better), or because they think they're voicing a kiddy show, or because they can't do serious voices...
so I never watch dubs, so I can't comment on that... Sorry.

And I don't mean to offend anyone who likes dubs, this is just my personal preference!! =)

And I'm relieved as much as I’m delighted to know that you are. But I must ask you that you please word your statements a little more... neutrally (I think that's the word I'm looking for). Your statements are just a little too bold for me.

Like I said at the beginning, same to you, definitely. I apologize for being a bit bold in response to your last post. I did it because I felt offended by the way you phrased yourself, and I should've just ignored it. A bit of a lapse on my part too here =)

You know, I don’t think I can ever have the guts to tell anyone I’m supposed to be having a canon debate with that they "have somewhat distorted" image of the characters,

same as above. Sorry, but I felt your were trying actively to be insulting, therefore I didn't hold back.
What I meant is, that, same point as further above, I got the impression that you're trying to ignore or deny that Relena could ever have done something not worthy of praise, or that she could possibly have been rude. It sounded as if you were trying to say, everything she does is for a reason, good and right, and she can do no wrong. As if you were trying to say she was perfect from the start, which isn't my interpretation of Relena, and isn't the way I think they tried to portray her.
Basically, it sounded as if you tried to say Relena was a little Lacus right from the start. Hope I made myself a bit clearer now =)

The reason why I don't find it necessary to point them out, even though I know they were there, is because... I like her BECAUSE of these flaws. Not DESPITE them.

Not really, both applies. I like her despite being a bit insulting to Noin, for example. But I like her because she has the guts to say what she wants, and because she starts out a bit "spoiled and bratty" but grows up.
And I think there isn't anything wrong with acknowledging her flaws or her being politically incorrect, or out of line- because she IS sometimes vastly out of line, see IkuzeMinna's examples.
I got the impression that to you it is not ok or not part of your interpretation to acknowledge these things- I might be wrong though, so I hope you can correct me on this one =)

Like I've been saying, she changed so I see no reason why I have to point out she "used to be a brat" when now she "has matured". For me, it can no longer define her so it’s meaningless to mention it now, because her transformation has superseded it.

Seriously?? But it's part of her development, and part of who she is. In other words, she wouldn't have become who she is without these things....
Sorry, but this a statement to strongly disagree with.
of course who you were is part of who you've become, so of course it defines you to a certain extend!!!
and how is it meaningless to mention something that has happened in the show, and that has contributed to the development of the show...??
It's like saying: Oh well, i don't believe in studying history, because it's in the past, and it doesn't matter anymore now.
I really hope you can see why I have to disagree very strongly with this statement...
sorry.

AND no, I never pointed out she was always right. I wish you'd stop trying to "use my words against me", when they're NOT EVEN MINE to begin with.

You claimed you can justify anything she's done. That makes it sound as if you can make anything she did sound as if it was ok. That is why I got this impression that you don't want to admit that she might've maybe done something politically incorrect or rude, or maybe just not nice.
Really hope you can say that I misunderstood you

FOR ME, just because a flaw is justified... it doesn’t change the fact that it IS a flaw, it always has been and it will always be.

this. That's what I'm trying to make you see though, so maybe we're just not getting each other.
But this seems to mean that you're actually agreeing with what I'm saying somehow, you're just making me misunderstand you somehow.
=D
But then I'm not sure why you're arguing so strongly against Relena having rude or impolite moments.
The way I understood it, you were claiming these moments are ok because you can justify them.
Now you say you acknowledge her flaws.
But then you say you don't think Relena ever did anything wrong with the way she acted (see examples above).
Now you got me confused.

I find this very arrogant, I have to admit. You have YET to have a sane discussion where no one went down on you and accused you of hating as soon as you criticise?
So right now, this discussion we’re having is not sane? When I didn’t even accuse you of hating or anything?

Like I said, this goes back to the way I interpreted your tone and choice of words in the last post. I explained further above
Because of that, the way you reacted didn't really sound very objective or calm to me. It seemed as soon as someone criticized Relena, you exploded and became pretty rude
But like I said, I think you maybe didn't mean it this way, so I'm sorry, if I misunderstood your intentions.

So it has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing, or any other slightly personal accusation you made following the above quote- it's about the tone of the reactions you get when you criticize her.
Actually I am being a bit inaccurate though, I did have more down-to-earth talks about Relena before, they are just fewer than the shocked and outraged responses.

I have never met anyone "reluctant to disagree with criticisms", tbh.
To pass back the ball you served to you- maybe it's you who didn't respond in a pleasant way, and that is why you may have gotten accused of being a bit extreme?
Sorry, I would not normally say something like that, and maybe I shouldn't, and let this statement just rest, but... well, think about it, it's the kind of phrasing I initially took offense with, and why I got the impression you were quite aggressive in your response.

I don't really think that's the problem by the way, I think we are misinterpreting each other a bit. You said above you are not denying Relena's mishaps, and I may have gotten the wrong impression, so I'm waiting to hear from you if that's correct =)



Anyway, we probably got carried away a little, and I'm sorry for that. I shouldn't have allowed myself to take offense from the way you said things (I just really didn't like the tone and the choice of words, especially the diminutive terms you used, as explained at the beginning), but I did. Sorry =)

[Aldaeus]

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

I'm running out of word choices

When in doubt, go read some old marvel comics...

[Deacon Blues]

I've honestly tried... I'm reading the Ghost in the Shell manga to get some SFX choices for mechanics. Marvel doesn't have much in terms of that (I don't think).

Anyone wanna buy an extra frozen teardrop vol 2? I have two... idk how :/

[IkuzeMinna]

Seeing as I forgot how we even ended up discussing this, I'll try to keep it short.

Spoiler for babbling:

There's some stuff I disagree with but LTP hit the nail on the head with her description. Indeed, Relena isn't rude. She's impulsive and somewhat of a hot-head. Actually, she's like Heero. xD Totally acting on her emotions. The only thing she lacks is his rudeness.
Now that I think about it, that was a poor choice of words. Because Relena being rude would mean that she was rude with the intention of being rude (grammatically correct but what a horrible sentence ). But in her case, it was her being impulsive and thus the actions she took came off as rude. Meaning, she had a good reason to disappear from her birthday party; she was concerned about Heero's well-being, not say, bored out of her mind (which I'm sure she was ). Same with Romefeller. Although it was out of line, she was right. She didn't give that little speech to spite them but to point out that they were sacrificing human lives just to fill their wallets.
As the series progresses she grows up, becomes calmer and learns not to be so rash anymore and pull crazy stunts like flying between battling mobile suits or shooting OZ commanders. That's beautiful character growth we have there. She does retain some of her quick temper, like when she slaps some sense into Mariemaia (you can see she's been itching to do it from the beginning xD) but she's way more level-headed than at the start of the series. Kinda like her bro. Before his helmet squeezed off the blood supply to his brain, that is.

Although the result of her actions is the same, I want to distinguish between the reasons being out of rudeness or impetuousness. A rude character to me is someone like Quatrine or Duo Jr. who take jibes at people or outright insult them. They do it for no other reason than to be rude. Relena has other motives though. And as has been said, they justify her actions even though they are sometimes inappropriate. Like yelling at Duo. As far as she knew, he was turning Heero into Swiss cheese for the heck of it. She couldn't know that Heero was tougher than his Gundam and that Duo was only trying to incapacitate him. All she saw was lots of blood and no dead body. That's why she intervened after the second shot. (Although I admit, I think that most of their "romantic" scenes were handled rather clumsily. Anyway.)
The other reason I don't want to call her rude is because Relena is very much polite. Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I can tell she has a more polite and formal speech pattern in the Jap Dub than what is common. And if I recall correctly, she never insulted anyone, either. Even when she had reason to. The way she told Dorothy to shut up was put very nicely. xD

Originally Posted by Leave The Pieces

So, anyway, it miffs me every time someone goes saying "She's rude" and ends it there (hyperbole) because it's not criticising her, it's defining her (I'm not saying you or anyone else said that, btw). And the funny thing is one can say "She's polite." and it'll be just as accurate.

I think I commented on this already. I repeat, I do define her as polite for the reasons I stated above. Being rude and rash/disobedient are two different things for me.

But you know what miffs me? Twisting "Don't worry, I'm not a child anymore. I understand how important your work is" into "Bastard! How dare you leave my birthday party?!" Seriously, how do people manage this??? Relena never, ever demanded that her father spend time with her. She told him to take some time off for his own sake. Because he's obviously over-working himself. How people can call her selfish, I'll never know.

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

You know, I'm guessing before we know it, everyone will be related to everyone. In fact, we'll find out the teddybear is Dorothy's long lost sister.

HAHAHA! Yeah, her mind was uploaded into the ZERO System which was installed by Doktor S in the teddy's tie. She was actually the one to kill the little girl and her dog because those two were enemy spies that had gotten the blueprints of Barge and were going to hand them over to Eighteen J. Walker, Oswald's older brother who was Leia Barton's official husband and looked exactly like... umm... now I got it! Duo with short hair! And did I mention that he was from L6, which had been constructed waaay before the series started but was never mentioned? Yeah. xD

Sure, and that is understandable though. Tbh, I always thought he was a huge douchebag for handing responsibility to a kid, and expecting her and Noin to figure it out for him.
Think about it, that could have backfired so badly, if Relena had proven to be unsuitable for the role... she was really young after all, and she did have to mature considerable despite having the necessary qualities in theory (which he probably didn't know before)

So true. It would've been an entirely different matter if there was peace, because as the saying goes, "even an idiot can rule when nothing goes wrong". But Relena was flung into a complete and utter mess and people were expecting so much of her, it's a miracle she made it out of it in one piece. Okay, she had people to help her but the one who was next in line wasn't her but Milliardo. But what does he do? Dump responsibility on her because his hands are so blood-stained~ and go off to fight kids with mobile suits in the middle of nowhere. And for what?

And I don't see her being thrown into all this completely against her will - there were other contributing factors, the assassination of her dad, the political development in general.

Yup. Plus, she could've just said no. I bet that would've been really awkward. xD

I'm not sure, but FT seems to sort of be going down that route with the PPP- thing. That's definitely not a healthy way to ensure peace. It's a bit like communism- nice idea but doesn't work.

Didn't Relena herself say that true peace can never be achieved through order (meaning forceful implementation of rules)? How ironic.

[Kitsoru]

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

Anyone wanna buy an extra frozen teardrop vol 2? I have two... idk how :/

What would you be looking for for it (shipped in the US)?

Also, last minute gratuitous reminder that if you happen to be attending Otakon this weekend, look for me, I'll be pilotsuit Duo.

[Faerie]

Spoiler for what IkuzeMinna said:

edit: oh, something just popped into my head. I wonder if I'm the only one who thinks this, or if you're all ok with this....
I've just been on youtube and was looking for some videos, when I noticed, there's no videos of Relena.
There's tons of videos of Heero and Relena, sure. But next to none about Relena.
Now, I have no problem with 1xR, but I, as opposed to most others didn't really see it happening as a canon pairing- I understood them as very close friends (similar to Marina& Setsuna in 00. I never understood Stellar and Shinn as a "couple" either).
I mean, they matter to each other a great deal, they are very close, maybe they would eventually be together in some way (although, FT says nope xD), but never in a way that a typical "couple" would...
I always understood these 2 as separate entities, and I understood especially Relena as well-developed enough on her own, that she doesn't need the main guy as a support to stand out (Like Lacus does).
As such, needless to say, I prefer Relena the character 8and her story) to 1xR (whatever is hinted at. I think it was even confirmed they weren't written/intended as a couple).
Now I am baffled to see that the fandom seems to totally disagree, if we go by the fanworks, and Relena seems to be interpreted as attached to the hip to Heero.
I'd love to hear some thoughts on that =)

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

Indeed, Relena isn't rude. She's impulsive and somewhat of a hot-head. Actually, she's like Heero. xD Totally acting on her emotions. The only thing she lacks is his rudeness.

Yes, that's true. "rude" is maybe not completely fitting as a choice of words.
I guess it's the world I would use as a character of the show at the time the situation occurred, but it's maybe not the correct word to describe it from the outside.
You know what I mean? If I were Noin or someone from the audience during the Romefeller incident, I would say "Okay, this girl is rude and insolent, and I will not take her seriously as a person" (as a politician is a different matter).
But describing it from the outside, it is indeed not intentionally rude, it is more impulsive/rash decisions and actions that appear impolite- but she doesn't mean it (basically, I would say she had manners and common sense, they were just not polished very well yet, which means she can appear rash and a bit arrogant to those she is addressing. Not that she is or means to. But it's what it looks like).
Which basically just leads to the same result though- which leads back to the fact that she had to be this way to be able to grow.
Which is what we all like- the way her character developed =)

How people can call her selfish, I'll never know.

No idea... like I said, I can understand when people call her judgmental, as there is a sort of basis for that during her early days.
Or maybe they are interpreting it from how she just leaves everything and runs off when Heero is concerned? That was admittedly always a bit awkward. But I never thought she displayed selfishness, just like you said, she acts on impulse...

HAHAHA! Yeah, her mind was uploaded into the ZERO System which was installed by Doktor S in the teddy's tie. She was actually the one to kill the little girl and her dog because those two were enemy spies that had gotten the blueprints of Barge and were going to hand them over to Eighteen J. Walker, Oswald's older brother who was Leia Barton's official husband and looked exactly like... umm... now I got it! Duo with short hair! And did I mention that he was from L6, which had been constructed waaay before the series started but was never mentioned? Yeah. xD

Oh great, I knew it. And L6 is actually where they're making all these Zechs clones, which are manufactured by a female professor who was very sad when he got married and thus decided to make her own.
Meanwhile Hilde is Noin's long lost cousin, and thus the true heir to the Noinheim corporation, which is the real reason why she isn't with Duo anymore. She orchestrated the assassination of Dix-Neuf so she could take over the company and execute her plans. Plans that make even Zechs at the height of his delusions blush.
That's how it's going to happen.

So true. It would've been an entirely different matter if there was peace, because as the saying goes, "even an idiot can rule when nothing goes wrong". But Relena was flung into a complete and utter mess and people were expecting so much of her, it's a miracle she made it out of it in one piece. Okay, she had people to help her but the one who was next in line wasn't her but Milliardo. But what does he do? Dump responsibility on her because his hands are so blood-stained~ and go off to fight kids with mobile suits in the middle of nowhere. And for what?

Exactly. I'm sorry, but this whole "oh, I'm so bloodstained" never made sense to me, as it wasn't really true up to that point... He was a soldier, ok. Doesn't count in my book. The only thing that does is taking revenge, but arguably even that was necessary to re-instate Cinq if you wanted it to have a chance for survival. Take out the major offenders.
He could've just admitted that he doesn't want to do it...
Srsly though, even if he didn't think he had the qualifications (as he is experienced and knows his stuff), the next logical thing would've been to make Relena a figurehead for a while, with him pulling the strings. If it turned out, she was good, he could've let her do it herself then.

It's all good and well because she turned out fine, but from a cautious perspective, he was making absolutely no sense xD
But then, when does he.....?

Yup. Plus, she could've just said no. I bet that would've been really awkward. xD

awesome. The awkward silence..... Now I sort of wish she had done that

Didn't Relena herself say that true peace can never be achieved through order (meaning forceful implementation of rules)? How ironic.

Yep. Just another reason why Milliardo looks really stupid in the end. He was probably the only one who somehow figured the whole total pacifism could just work.
But like you said, I'm guessing ventilation can't be all that good inside that helmet.
He is thus excused xD

[Deacon Blues]

Originally Posted by Kitsoru

What would you be looking for for it (shipped in the US)?

Also, last minute gratuitous reminder that if you happen to be attending Otakon this weekend, look for me, I'll be pilotsuit Duo.

Um... $15 with shipping maybe? I don't think it'll cost that much. Haha.

[Kitsoru]

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

Um... $15 with shipping maybe? I don't think it'll cost that much. Haha.

Gotta wait to see how much I spend at Ota but I might (don't hold it for me though)

[Deacon Blues]

I doubt anyone else will snatch it up.

[dkre]

Hey everybody

New member here. I've been reading reading this thread for quite a while now ever since i heard that FT was out. I gotta say i love the discussion so far and it wasn't till now that I've felt the need to join in.

As far as FT goes, although it was a little confusing to figure out was was going on (considering i can't read Japanese) from reading everything you guys post, l really like it so far. I just hope we get to see the suit design soon. O well, can't do anything but wait.

As for the Relena/Zechs thing, reading the discussion has been very enlightening from all sides and everyone made good points. so the conclusion i come down to is both sides have similar view points, you're just wording them differently. it almost feels(to me that is) that this discussion is a coin that was split in halve, and later down both faces meet and have an epic battle (not saying you guys are fighting, not at all) because they look different from each other without ever realizing they are from the same coin. i know, strange metaphor, but that how it feels to me.

btw, sorry if i offended anyone with what i said. I'm not very good with words since i tend to be more of a listener.

and also i don't know if anyone has mentioned this but I was watching a review on MG Epyon and the reviewer pointed out that parts of the some of the runners were sectioned off. all of the ones that were are Epyon's weapons, which gives a strong possibility that we will be getting Epyon Pi in the future. I just hope we are. since their designs aren't majorly different it would be really easy for Bandai to make it. here's hoping for sometime next year.

Anyways, that's my two cents and i hop to get along with all of you.

[Aldaeus]

Originally Posted by dkre

Hey everybody

and also i don't know if anyone has mentioned this but I was watching a review on MG Epyon and the reviewer pointed out that parts of the some of the runners were sectioned off. all of the ones that were are Epyon's weapons, which gives a strong possibility that we will be getting Epyon Pi in the future. I just hope we are. since their designs aren't majorly different it would be really easy for Bandai to make it. here's hoping for sometime next year.

Anyways, that's my two cents and i hop to get along with all of you.

I actually agree, If they do the same thing they did with the X and the X Divider it would make a lot of sense... and depending if it ends up getting a chance as either a series or OVA it's chances only get better. Also in my opinion if they do end up releasing the White Epyon, it will probably come along with the same time the other frozen teardrop suits come about so most likely looking at it when the last of the EW MG's get released somewhere in the fall...

[Leave The Pieces]

Spoiler for Mainly for SkullFaerie, a little bit directed to IkuzeMinna and Mareike:

@ IkuzeMinna

Everything that I wanted to say, you said it like a boss. Thank you.

And no, you weren't really disagreeing with ANYTHING I said. Just that you misunderstood what I was trying to say and so you thought you were disagreeing.

You can say she's polite because you don't consider her rude in the first place. You actually just proven my point that one cannot say one is rude and polite at the same time as exact opposites cancel each other out. Exactly like maths.

What I was saying, though, is that when one just drops the bomb "She's polite." PERIOD. (Which you didn't do because you explained why you said you find her polite.)

It sounds so general, as if she was ALWAYS polite... when at times, she could be very impulsive too that she'd come off as rude. Which is why I agree with SkullFaerie when she said being polite is in any occasions. The reason why I disagreed with her saying Relena's rude is that it's unfair. Rude is also when one is rude in all occasions. Which Relena wasn't so, yeah. It sounds so general too. At least when you (not YOURSELF but the general second person) say she's rude, follow it up with reasons so her fans don't get miffed, you know? That's why I was insistent examples were cited. It was NOT because I stupidly thought no one can cite anything.

Anyway, back to what I was originally saying. When someone says "She's polite." and ends it there, I'd be like, "I disagree, unless you cite reasons why you think she is so. Because I know other people find her "rude", and yet you insist she's polite. So that means she's both and that just sounds stupid."

So yeah, you're not really disagreeing with me on that account either. But if you still think you do, well, okay. I'm just happy you said she's not rude lol.

Seriously, when people use that word on her, it miffs me because it puts her in the same level as those characters who intentionally offend.

I never saw Relena intentionally offending anyone. She was just really impulsive. The thing about her was that she was childish: She didn't care if her actions would look bad, all she knew was that the intentions behind them were not, anyway. You know, like "Idc what people would say, God knows I'm not doing it to spite anyone."
Which is why it doesn't stop her from recklessly acting out her guts, and clumsy with her speech. Not necessarily tactless, as she proved she can be very considerate and sensitive.
Tactless is when one is "inconsiderate". Considerate and inconsiderate cancel each other out.

"Bossy" on the other hand, also sounds degrading to her character to me. Bossy is when someone orders people to get something they want done, immediately and no matter what. Other than the reason they WANT it done, there's nothing else. The order is not in anyone else's best interest. Which then would associate "bossy" with the word "selfish".
And Relena was never selfish. She was just unreasonable, like a child.

All I saw her do was tell people to NOT do what she doesn't want them to do. She doesn't want them to fight.
We were talking about hypocrisy earlier, yes?

The hypocrisy I was referring to, however, is not due to reputation, dignity or image.
But her personal principles.

It's not because she cares about what she'd look like to the public if she let such fight occur. It was more because she was so naive about her pacifism. She was like, "I'm promoting peacemaking and yet I'll join in on the war? I have guilt, people!!! I'd feel bad!" - which made me go "DUDE, NO. YOU SHOULDN'T FEEL GUILTY CUZ YOU GOT ATTACKED FIRST. YOU'RE JUST DEFENDING. *facepalm*"
It seems to her that they were turning her into a hypocrite. She wouldn't acknowledge that she could make an exception this once and it would be understandable, IT WOULDN'T BE HYPOCRISY. Just that she thinks it would be. If that's not being unreasonable, I don't know what is.

And also, she doesn't want her peeps to fight because she cares about them and the innocent civilians who will get involved. That's not selfish, which is why I don't think it should be labelled bossy. Bossiness and selfishness are very much linked to each other (to me), you see.

So yeah, I'd call it unreasonable. Because no matter what they try to do to make her realise she needs to take up arms, she wouldn't. She was so stubborn with her beliefs that she shuts all reasons out. She just won't acknowledge that in every rule there are always exceptions.
Seriously, how childish and unreasonable is that?! Girl, you need to defend yourself. Defending yourself doesn't make you a monster like those who attack you. You're just defending. I was like, "Gosh is she stubborn or what. If I were her mother, I'd hit her in the bum. WITH A STICK!"

@ SkullFaerie

I.

You claimed you can justify anything she's done. That makes it sound as if you can make anything she did sound as if it was ok. That is why I got this impression that you don't want to admit that she might've maybe done something politically incorrect or rude, or maybe just not nice. Really hope you can say that I misunderstood you

OMG why is this so hard...

I already explained this, BEFORE you EVEN asked.
Now why you still had to ask, mystifies me like OMG. @_@

I'm sorry to shatter your hopes but I cannot tell you that you simply misunderstood me.
I can tell you, however, that you COULDN'T understand me... and you still can't.

Misunderstanding me and failing to understand me are two different things. Synonymous as they may sound, they are not always the same.

I do not like repeating myself but you make me need to... so here's a second attempt to prove you that you are wrong for accusing me of insisting that Relena was always right.

I never insisted that she was always right. And NEVER would I do something like that... you know why? BECAUSE I MYSELF DON'T THINK SHE WAS ALWAYS RIGHT.

I only insisted that her actions were always justifiable.
To me, just because something is justifiable and/or understandable, it doesn't make it automatically RIGHT. With me, so far? Great.

So, for the third time: I ONLY insisted that everything (yes, dude, EVERYTHING) Relena said and did IS ALWAYS (yes, dude, ALWAYS) JUSTIFIABLE. (Justifiable ONLY. Not "right", not "okay".)
Question: What makes me think so?
Answer: Because they always (yes, ALWAYS) had reasons. Which, THEREFORE, makes them understandable... which, THEREFORE, makes them justifiable. Because, TO ME, something that's understandable is justifiable.

NOW just because I claimed they're justifiable... doesn't mean I think they're right. Just because something is justifiable and/or understandable, it doesn't make it automatically right.
See how you make me go around in circles here??????????

While I can make it understandable, I never said that I can make it feel "okay" (as you put it).

My English is very limited and I am running out of words to say to you.
So if you still insist that I insisted that she was always right, I GIVE UP. No amount of debate will make you realise the fact that I NEVER insisted she was always right.

If, for you, something that's justifiable makes it automatically right, then I hope you can see why we disagreed in the first place. Because the way you take the word "justifiable" is different from how I take it.

Seriously, dude, I dunno what else to say to you. If this doesn't prove you you're wrong (for accusing me of insisting that she was always right), I don't know what will.

Dude, honestly, I don't know why you'd get an impression like THAT (ones in bold in the first quote). Just because I think everything she did is justifiable, it doesn't mean I'm gonna go around "BUT SHE DIDN'T DO THAT!!!!!" when... she did. @_@

But then you say you don't think Relena ever did anything wrong with the way she acted / you were claiming these moments are ok because you can justify them

Maaaannnnnnn, I've already explained this too. *sigh*

Just because I say it's not wrong, doesn't mean I'm saying it's right.

See, the reason why you disagree with me is because you think that I think she's always right just because I say she's not wrong (sounds stupid but keep reading) -- how many times do I have to tell you that for me, what's right and what's wrong is not always black and white? There are grey areas. So if black represents "wrong", and white represents "right", grey represents everything in between. Such as "understandable", "justifiable".

It's simple Logic*, really. So, if it's IN BETWEEN, then it cannot be right and it cannot be wrong. As right and wrong are two opposite end points. Which therefore means they do not lie in between.

That said, it can only be justifiable, because "justifiable" is what lies in between. *Logic - basic properties of valid arguement and correct reasoning.

Does its being justifiable make it okay? The answer to that is SUBJECTIVE. It depends on people's take on what is okay and what is not.

II.

The reason why my post (post #3375) was very upset was because I really was upset with your initial post (post #3363).
And the reason why the words "cuppycake", etc. were there was because I thought that if I put things like that there, then you'd think that even though I am upset, it doesn't mean I'm yelling at you or hating on you or anything. Just that I got upset.
Had I known it would backfire to an extent that you'd think I'm patronising with you and psychoanalysing you, I wouldn't have put them there at all. Sorry.

Anyway, the reason why I was upset was because I couldn't understand why you thought you had to bring Relena's flaws up (her flaws in GENERAL) when we (Omnicat, Mareike and I) were talking about Zechs' "mistreatment" to Relena WHICH justifies her not reciprocating to him (be it during the hug scene, etc.).
I couldn't understand what your intentions were for bringing them up. All I could come up with, was that, whatever your intentions were, they sure weren't NICE. That's why it upset me.
Why would I come up with something like that, you may ask. Please keep reading and you will find out.

We (still Omnicat, Mareike and I) were talking about Zechs' "mistreatment" to Relena (and to Relena ALONE) and vice versa.

Next thing I know, here you are, jumping in... and start saying "Okay guys, remember, Zechs can be a d-bag but so can Relena... she was rude to Noin, Pagan, etc."

I was like: WHAT THE?!

I don't think she was rude, but I took a pass on disagreeing with it temporarily to try to understand WHY YOU HAD TO BRING THAT UP. So I was like "Okay. So, say, theoretically, Relena was indeed rude to Noin. Remind me again HOW does that justify Zechs' "mistreatment" to Relena that she had to bring it up NOW?"

Because, I'm telling you know, that's how your post came off to me. As if Relena's being "rude" can justify why Zechs was a d-bag that you felt the need to point it out.

The thing is, it can't.
And I think you, too, know that her manners can't justify his "mistreatments" to her. And yet, you brought it up anyway. So I was like, "I'm pretty sure she knows Relena's naughtiness doesn't justify Zechs' fail!brother-hood so why would she bring it up????????"

We (still Omnicat, Mareike and I) were counting Zechs and Relena's "mistreatment" to EACH OTHER and TO EACH OTHER ONLY.
Which is why all three of us sided with Relena because his "mistreatment" to her is what caused her "mistreatment" to him.

Omnicat was like "If it were me, I prefer she gave him a slap and said 'Begone!'"
Mareike was like "If it were me, I'd be like 'HU U?'"
I was like "While I prefer she reciprocated to him, I also think it's right that she didn't."

Heck, even Kitsoru went "Relena still didn't know Zechs very well and a sibling relationship, or any relationship doesn't appear out of thin air."

But all too sudden, you jumped in and started enumerating Relena's "mistreatment" to OTHER PEOPLE. Which is in NO WAY related to the relationship of the siblings -- which I'm pretty sure you're aware of, anyway.

We weren't pointing out "Zechs was mean to Dorothy. Zechs wasn't very sensitive towards Noin." and ignoring Relena's childish behaviour towards Sally, Noin, etc. WE WEREN'T.

And yet, you jumped in and said "Relena was "bossy" to Noin. She was rude very often too. Her tone with other people, blah blah blah."

I was like "Is this girl for real?" @_@

I'm not saying that your bringing it up was wrong. It was not.
But its timing was.

Which is why I asked you if you ever considered that maybe it was you who did something that lead to all the misunderstandings. But, instead of realising what I was trying to make you realise, you turned it around on me, which I have to say, is a pretty lame move. You can't turn it around on me because you upset me FIRST by making me misunderstand your intentions.
If you hadn't upset me, then I wouldn't have upset you which I know I did. That's why I asked you if you ever thought about the possibility that maybe it was you who said something that that's not very nice/misleading that made people get a knee-jerk reaction after reading your post.

I hope you get what I'm trying to say here. Because if you don't, I honestly have no other words to make you understand.

If we (still Omnicat, Mareike and I) were talking about what Zechs and Relena were like towards the other characters besides each other, THAT'S WHEN YOU CAN BRING UP YOUR CLAIM SHE'S "RUDE". OTHERWISE, PEOPLE WILL MISUNDERSTAND YOUR INTENTIONS FOR BRINGING IT UP. Like myself, for example. I was like "Seriously, I do not get why she thought she had to bring it up."

You could've at least changed the topic first, before you brought it up.
Like, I dunno... perhaps, by saying "What about the siblings' manners to other people, guys?" before you dump Relena's flaws like that.

So no, the excuse "coming down heavier on Relena's flaws because Zechs' was already mentioned" doesn't work, I'm afraid.
You know why? Because Zechs' flaws haven't even been mentioned yet. We (still Omnicat, Mareike and I) were just talking about his "mistreating" Relena and nothing else.

We weren't pointing out what he was like to other characters (Noin's name just appears occasionally because we're saying we feel sorry for her too). So I couldn't understand why you felt the need to mention what Relena was like to other characters.

I really hope you can see why you upset me. As I said, I'm starting to run out of words to say to you because my English is very limited.

Here's an example to explain what I meant even further:

John Doe and a couple of friends were talking about Jane Smith's not being nice to Jane Doe.

Suddenly, John Smith joined the conversation and said "But Jane Doe is not nice either! She was mean to Bob!"

Okay. Say, even if Jane Doe really was mean to Bob... how is that RELATED to Jane Smith not being nice to Jane Doe that John Smith HAD to bring it up? How is it relevant to the topic???????

Because this is exactly what you did here. Which is NOT adding another side to the coin. Maybe it is adding another side to a coin... BUT A DIFFERENT COIN, I'm afraid. One that wasn't even on the table yet.

*sigh* I feel pretty spent. I'm just gonna sit here and pray that the example above helps deliver the point across.

III.

"rude" is maybe not completely fitting as a choice of words.

DUDE ARE YOU SERIOUS?????????

Now you EVEN say that maybe she was NOT rude indeed???????
And yet... you made life so hard for me by TURNING ME DOWN every time I implored you to ACKNOWLEDGE, if not admit, that her being rude is ALWAYS DEBATABLE.

I didn't even ask you to take back your saying she's rude. I ONLY asked that you at least acknowledge that it IS debatable... BUT YOU WOULDN'T.

I dunno how to make you realise this but you just proved yourself wrong.

You labelled her rude and claimed it's not always debatable.

BUT now, you're saying she wasn't REALLY rude all those times, just SEEMINGLY. She simply was impulsive.

SO WHY DID YOU DISAGREE WITH ME WHEN I TOLD YOU THAT HER BEING RUDE IS ALWAYS DEBATABLE WHEN IN THE END, YOU'D BE ADMITTING SHE WASN'T RUDE AT ALL ANYWAY?????

- Please answer the question. Please.

But then I'm not sure why you're arguing so strongly against Relena having rude or impolite moments.

You're actually right, I'm arguing real strongly about Relena's being "rude". But her being "impolite"? I am not. Seriously, words can be synonymous but NOT in every application. Which is why I think my problem with you is not really what you're saying but rather, your carelessness (sorry) with how you word what you're trying to say.

You use words that are too definite and bold. Such as "rude" and you wouldn't acknowledge that its application to Relena is debatable.

The funny thing is, you're the only one whose labelling her rude who I was so nitpicky about. Mareike and IkuzeMinna called her "rude", which IkuzeMinna took back (YAY!), but did you see me get all critical and knee-jerky about it? No. Because the way they worded their claims wasn't bold. Their statements were safe and humble enough that it's evident they acknowledge these statements are debatable. But you... you just wouldn't budge. You insist that it's non-debatable when it is. And now you just admitted that it's not really rude, only impulsive -- which just proves that I'm right about saying her being "rude" is always debatable.

Please, be more careful with your word usage. You don't have to choose words more carefully, but at least when you use bold words, make it sound like you're acknowledging that it's debatable -- meaning you're aware that there are better words out there that can be used instead. Because even if you are aware, you don't sound like you are... and you don't sound like you're aware because you won't admit it's debatable.

Now IF you're going to ask me "How do I know what words please you? DUHH."

You don't. Which is why I insist you make your claims sound as safe as you can. And this is not just for me, but for everyone else. Try to hear it from other fans' ears. Your saying a character is rude, etc. can be grating to the ears of some of the fans of that character.

The difference between you and I is that when I upset you, it's something personal. You didn't like my addressing YOU and you alone, by using words such as "cuppycake", etc.

Whereas you upset me, because you said something inaccurate about a character and that what you said is something that I didn't like. Not only because I like the character but also because I didn't think she deserved it.

When I criticised Zechs, I never used words such as "d-bag", etc. as words like that can be grating to his fans' ears. I only said "Personally, he'd repulse me." Because personally, he would. And that's not even up for debate because I'm admitting it's a personal preference thing.

So, anyway, even if you say you like him for being a "d-bag", you're not being very sensitive.

If someone said to me "You're a b***h but I like you for it." and was serious, I wouldn't know whether to take it as a compliment or not. So please be a little more sensitive when you word your statements.

Btw, it's not just because the word "d-bag" can offend his fans that I refuse to call him that. The other reason (the main reason, in fact) is simply because I don't think he qualifies for the word in the first place.

I'd call the guy "detached", "inconsiderate"... and of course, "sinister" and "unforgiving" (the guy can hold a grudge like a boss) but "d-bag" doesn't sound right to me. I wouldn't call any of the guys in Wing a "d-bag"... except Heero.

Okay. Let's look at Zechs. The guy's a gentleman (until the Libra ordeal, Zechs, don't shove Dorothy, please). He helps Noin out of an Aries(?). And he cares a lot about his men (Otto, Walker, etc.). The guy's chivalrous. I wouldn't call someone like that a d-bag.

Does Wu Fei qualify for the word? I don't think so. While the guy can be OVERLY self-involved and passive, which makes him seem like a total snob, he can manage a 'thank you' and he can show that he cares. A guy like that ain't a d-bag in my book, either.

Does Treize? I don't think so. Look at how much he values his soldiers' lives, his high standards on what is truly dignified and honourable, the way he's so affectionate of people when he speaks, and his overall aura just screams "galant" to me -- as if he wears the very word as an aftershave lol. He sure is very cunning and deceptive, which qualifies him for the word bastard (but a magnificent one at that. ) But d-bag? I don't think so.

Now let's look at Heero (I dreamt this day would come. I can say something that's not very nice about him and his rabid fangirls won't eat me alive )

Tear the invitation of the girl who, just yesterday tried to help you by calling an ambulance for you and, today tried to make you feel welcome at her school by telling you you can join her birthday party, not only after she just handed the invitation to you courteously, not only in front of her, but IN FRONT OF THE ENTIRE STUDENT BODY? Check.

Stealing the parts of the machine of the guy who helped you break out of an enemy facility? Check.

Walk out while someone's talking to you just because you can? Check.

Seriously, if that's not being a d-bag... no, actually let me rephrase that... IF THAT'S NOT BEING AN A-HOLE, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS. The other guys didn't do anything close to these actions.

But Heero grows up, eventually. And although we didn't see him apologise to Relena (the one he mistreated the most, imo), he made it up to her in a lot of ways. Sparing Zechs' life, the teddy bear, the helmet scene (I thought he'd never swallow his guy-pride, tbh *squeal*), he covers her body with his own when Libra took a nasty hit, etc.

But yeah, when he started, he sure was a bully.

PS The Zechs vs Relena thing, etc., I'll comment on that later. Again I just posted the ones that I thought were most important. And also because this is gonna be more painfully long if I included those too lol.