Rozen Maiden ~ Ouvertüre ~ Discussion Thread

[Jamezterr]

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

I've had this one absolutely terrifying sub translation from Jap to Chinese to Engrish by someone non-Chinese and non-English quite obviously! That or Babelfish, since there were the occasional non-unicode character Lucky me it was just a .srt file I grabbed hastily so it wasn't hardsubbed. It sucks none the less to realize you can't make anything out of what you're watching if you haven't seen it yet with proper subs, that's just how horrible these subs were.

Good thing you're already laughing at it

Lol yeah, forntunatly I watched it in proper subs before.. ^^ So I knew that a "dolly maker" happened to be a Maestro.. Lol..

[Lost]

Originally Posted by Shinku Acolyte

Wait....I bought that DVD that Jamezterr bought off Ebay....so I was just scammed?

Yep, unfortunately. RM just got licensed, so it'll be awhile yet before the official Geneon DVDs get out.

[Kittie Rose]

How could Suigintou be a living thing without a Rosa Mystica?

It's kind of annoying when Sci-Fi/Fantasy does that; "Oh this Y is how thing X works", "But oh look! Thing X working without Y! What a fascinating plot line!".

Come to think of it, how does she move with her mid section missing anyway?

[Ziv]

Originally Posted by Kittie Rose

How could Suigintou be a living thing without a Rosa Mystica?

It's kind of annoying when Sci-Fi/Fantasy does that; "Oh this Y is how thing X works", "But oh look! Thing X working without Y! What a fascinating plot line!".

Come to think of it, how does she move with her mid section missing anyway?

There's no plot holes or retcons here. First off, they explain in an early episode that any inanimate object may have fragments of life. Mirrors, dolls etc... Suigintou happened to have one, and as Shinku explained, her emotions were so strong that she was able to move without a rosa mystica. Unfortunately for her, without a rosa mystica it would've only been temporary, which is why Shinku was able to empathize with her.

As for how she moves, it's probably the same as the way she flies.

[Shinku Acolyte]

If you remember she couldn't really walk at first, her legs were more like dead weight than a means of moving. Even when Shinku taught her, she still had trouble walking on her own without holding on to something. The only reason she moves fine now is because of the Roza Mystica, which I assume is magic.

[Lost]

In addition, her hate for Shinku and determination to become Alice and to find Father gave her her black wings in Ouverture, which tells a lot about what gave her the power to walk/crawl even when she didn't have RM or a torso.

//You know, maybe it was not so much the RM itself, but the confidence of finally being accepted by Father as a Rozen Maiden.. the reassurance that she was worthy.. that contributed to her great increase in motor-skills when she pwned Shinku.

[Kageitenshi]

There's no case of Deus Ex Machina here in action. Indeed it was noted very early in the series that not only can unanimate objects become animated on their own, but the power to forcibly animate is accounted for as being in Suigintou's arsenal. After all she's the one to have animated the clown puppet to cause havoc.
Edit: I wonder why this power of her's hasn't been used more extensively throughout the series though. Beyond her N-field containing all the macabre broken dolls and such there's no other in real world use of the power besides the Clown Puppet.

I sure love the scene in Ouvertüre where Gin-sama forms her wings and I sure love the dragon/wolf-like form of them when used to attack. Very imaginative!

//You know, maybe it was not so much the RM itself, but the confidence of finally being accepted by Father as a Rozen Maiden.. the reassurance that she was worthy.. that contributed to her great increase in motor-skills when she pwned Shinku.

No doubt about it! But in addition, Roza Mysticas are the power source of them dolls, so the motivation found by this event could finally be realized as well thanks to this new strength given by the RM! Don't you think? ^__^

[Deathkillz]

gin sama moving without a RM...it just proves her unmovable love for her father (tho he is an asshole) ~ no plotholes...just a case of sheer will of steel! *praises gin sama*

[aldw]

The manga story isn't as confusing wrt plotholes and such, Ouverture probably worked on the Shikigami idea.

[Kittie Rose]

So where is the "Self" in a living doll, then? What is the force that brings it to life, not just sustains it? And where is the consciousness seated?

[Ziv]

Originally Posted by Kittie Rose

So where is the "Self" in a living doll, then? What is the force that brings it to life, not just sustains it? And where is the consciousness seated?

Like they said, any inanimate object may have a fragment of life. It's assumed to be a fundamental property of the Rozen Maiden universe.

[Kageitenshi]

^ Not to forget that this belief in inanimate objects having "soul" or other personifying property is older than written language Before theology was even recognized as a concept, people went on to explain things they didn't understand as being the workings of spirits or ancestral souls attached to anything from a drop of water to earth itself... Actually back then, there was no distinguishable concept of good and evil, just things meant to happen, or could only blame oneself for angering some spirit by one's own actions if something unfortunate happened. How do they know this for sure? There's still tribes out there in the rainforests, who've never been in direct contact with "civilized" nations, and as such, haven't changed their traditions in hundreds if not thousands of years.

Fast forward to modern days, some of the remnants of such shamanistic mysticism, ancestral and natural spirits in all things have evolved into their own beliefs or have merged with mainstream religions. Including this one, according to which animal-shaped, namely humanoid-shaped items (puppets, dolls etc.) could become animated on their own after 100 years after creation or if a spirit is forced to take residence in such an item. Additionally some state that there has to be a strong emotions attached to this object. So, basically they've mainly alterered an existing belief to suit the new settings in the Rozen Maiden world, with pretty darned good results too!

Darn, such a loooong thing to say, just to point out that the residence of the spirit within whatever's been possessed by one varies a lot. Some belief (like the inuit-eskimos) that the spirit of a living animal can be seen in cold air when they breath... I wonder why..... They also believe that the spirit that becomes visible in cold air lives in... the stomach >_<
That has nothing to do with missing abdomen on Gin-sama though, or so I'd believe.

[Lost]

Remember that Clown doll - a pierrot - that Gin used in her attempt to kill Jun? Shinku spoke of it as being a child lost - she goes as far to say that he had "a clear awareness of being here." Her basis for this: Existence is determined by ideas. So, a doll has awareness from the beginning. And as long as the doll knows it's here, and it is itself, so to speak; it exists, has life. Finally; Shinku speaks of that pierrot's lost soul - implying it had a soul to start with.

In her rhetoric, Shinku also differentiates an object from a doll. An object is one with no awareness of its existence. A doll is the exact opposite.

So, like Ziv said, it's like a precept in Rozen Maiden. There is no indication as to the seat of its consciousness, IMO, there doesn't need to be. As to the force that brings it to life; I think (vaguely) that there were allusions by Enju in Traumend that the love that the maker has for the doll when he crafts and finishes it has something to do with its coming to life.

Combine that with Shinku’s ideas of life in a doll, and it probably means that the love and acute awareness that the creator has for his creation passes over to that creation; so that it itself becomes aware of itself. Hmm. =/

// all this is from episode 6 of first season, btw.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

Edit: I wonder why this power of her's hasn't been used more extensively throughout the series though. Beyond her N-field containing all the macabre broken dolls and such there's no other in real world use of the power besides the Clown Puppet.

I've always wondered if the clown wasn't sent by Shinku to force Jun's hand

[klinton]

*side question:

Has anyone heard if this is getting a North American release or not? I've been eyeing the Japanese DVD, but if I can get one subbed, I might just hold out.

[Question]

It will, but it will take at least half a year(guess estimate).

[Lost]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

I've always wondered if the clown wasn't sent by Shinku to force Jun's hand

That's honestly very true. I was thinking about that when I made my previous post above. After all, she really milked that attack to her advantage - and all so coolly...

[Lost]

The good people of Ayu have subbed Ouverture, in case anyone is interested.

[Z0Rr0rex]

Originally Posted by Lost

That's honestly very true. I was thinking about that when I made my previous post above. After all, she really milked that attack to her advantage - and all so coolly...

If you haven't noticed, the pierrot is swarmed by Suigintu's black feathers.

[Question]

Ouverture has a bit of continuity issue. The last time the dolls were awake, shinku was known as being very serious about the alice game, but suisei seki doesnt even seem to consider the possibility that shinku will try to take her rozen mystica when she showed up. Sousei seki doesnt seem surprised either that Shinku has no issues living peacefully with all the dolls, or that Suigintou survived and grew wings.