Aquarion EVOL - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

I mean like in the sense that he told one part of the story (Genesis), then when and did other projects like make Macross Frontier, but still wanted to finish up the story of Aquarion, so while he was doing he doing other things he was brainstorming ideas and being inspired by other things, then came back to Aquarion with all these ideas and tried to fit those into the story but not all of them fit into the story well.

Or kinda like what George Lucas did with the prequels, maybe?

Sadly, that doesn't work. The OS was made in 2003, which likely means it was planned around a year or two before the production. In 2007, Macross Frontier came out with at least a five year planning time, yet it still rushed the final two episodes and the movies had even worse pacing. Meanwhile, he is also working with AKB0048 as well right now. The problem is always his pacing in stories. I haven't seen a well-paced story since Do You Remember Love. He has this problem with series. Perhaps, if he was a movie-only type person, it would work better.

In regards to ideas, it is quite possible he got those while doing MF. I doubt he had inspiration to continue Aquarion before MF. He seemed just fine working on MF.

I can still remember when I heard that he didn't want to make sequels to Macross... yet, look at all the sequels there has been from him. Aquarion might come to turn out the same way with cliches like that. (We all know Macross' is overused: future/current pilot meets singer/future singer, an idol rises to fame, another idol falls, mature girl wins love triangle, happy/bittersweet ending, and the end.)

Maybe he shouldn't multi-task series either...

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Sadly, that doesn't work. The OS was made in 2003, which likely means it was planned around a year or two before the production. In 2007, Macross Frontier came out with at least a five year planning time, yet it still rushed the final two episodes and the movies had even worse pacing. Meanwhile, he is also working with AKB0048 as well right now. The problem is always his pacing in stories. I haven't seen a well-paced story since Do You Remember Love. He has this problem with series. Perhaps, if he was a movie-only type person, it would work better.

In regards to ideas, it is quite possible he got those while doing MF. I doubt he had inspiration to continue Aquarion before MF. He seemed just fine working on MF.

I can still remember when I heard that he didn't want to make sequels to Macross... yet, look at all the sequels there has been from him. Aquarion might come to turn out the same way with cliches like that. (We all know Macross' is overused: future/current pilot meets singer/future singer, an idol rises to fame, another idol falls, mature girl wins love triangle, happy/bittersweet ending, and the end.)

Maybe he shouldn't multi-task series either...

That makes sense. The story doesn't flow well, and things sometimes seem rushed. Maybe he saw that fanbase was wanting a follow-up series and decided to just do it.

And I agree. He is falling prey to the cliches he sets up.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Which is, in a way, perfectly OK - it's not like Amata & Mikono are married, etc. The problem is that Zessica didn't really do anything about actually getting Amata. She flirted with him for the lulz but stopped when she actually fell in love. And after that, she didn't even try to get his attention. We knew how she felt because we're the viewers, but when she confessed everyone was like "wtf??? O_O)" And then she told Mikono she wasn't going to give up on Amata, except she went right back to wangsting in the background. She wants Amata so much that her entire existence depends on him, but for some reason she's not working on getting to be in a relationship with him. Which would be fine if she was content with loving him from afar, but she's very obviously not.

Maybe the writers intended this to show that Zessica was such a good girl that she didn't trying to come between Amata and the girl he likes, except this way it just comes off as self-defeating. It's as if she's somehow expecting Amata to develop feelings for her even though she's not really doing anything to make him develop feelings for her. (Never mind how inconsistent this behavior is with Zessica's personality before she was hit on the head with Cupid's hammer.) Amata, awkward and inexperienced he is, still tried to court Mikono. Kagura is not exactly Casanova either, but by his logic Mikono wanted him and she just didn't know it yet, so he went ahead like a tank. But Zessica... she tried a mumbled "you know I'm kind of happy you have no chance with Mikono..." in the worst possible moment, much later a confession that came out of nowhere for everyone, and then, much later, a "so how about in 12000 years" which might be dramatic but it must've been pretty damn awkward for Amata.


I think they meant that Zessica didn't take a hint and didn't accept "defeat" and move on. Which, again, would've been fine if she had acted on her own challenge, but she didn't, she just curled up and wangsted.

Also, as for yandere, well... she's not yandere, but when your mental health and emotional well-being depends this much on one certain person's love... Suppose they get together somehow but after some time Amata decides they should see other people. It may not end too well...

OK OK, I'm out of here before people decide that this, too, is somehow all Amata's fault. That boy and his sick, unhealthy ~obsession~!

^^Basically this.

This is also another reason why I feel that romance wasn't handled well in this series at all. Yeah we see Zessica worry about Amata from afar, but that's about it. She doesn't actively chase after him, and for someone who thinks about him so much she really isn't considerate of his feelings.

Not only that but even after she confessed to him, and he tried to turn her down she didn't want to hear it, and instead ran away, and then pulled a desperate move to get his attention, which didn't work and only made things worse for her. Worse yet is that it seems as though she believes that if Amata doesn't end up with Mikono then he'll notice and love her, and she will get Amata.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Sadly, that doesn't work. The OS was made in 2003, which likely means it was planned around a year or two before the production. In 2007, Macross Frontier came out with at least a five year planning time, yet it still rushed the final two episodes and the movies had even worse pacing. Meanwhile, he is also working with AKB0048 as well right now. The problem is always his pacing in stories. I haven't seen a well-paced story since Do You Remember Love. He has this problem with series. Perhaps, if he was a movie-only type person, it would work better.

In regards to ideas, it is quite possible he got those while doing MF. I doubt he had inspiration to continue Aquarion before MF. He seemed just fine working on MF.

I can still remember when I heard that he didn't want to make sequels to Macross... yet, look at all the sequels there has been from him. Aquarion might come to turn out the same way with cliches like that. (We all know Macross' is overused: future/current pilot meets singer/future singer, an idol rises to fame, another idol falls, mature girl wins love triangle, happy/bittersweet ending, and the end.)

Maybe he shouldn't multi-task series either...

Actually, Genesis of Aquarion came out in 2005 not 2003, it was also followed by Macross Frontier, Basquash and
Animal Detective Kiruminzoo, and the two Frontier movies.

In Basquash Kawamori already did something different in that the main character didn't end up with anyone, since he wasn't interested in any of the female characters. Macross 7 and Macross Plus also didn't follow that story format at all. Actually a good portion of Kawamori's works don't follow that story format. So what you're saying just isn't true.

Also having seen Aquarion, the two OVA's, the movie, read a bit of the manga, and the listened to the drama CDs I wonder whether it was really in his idea to include that all along, as usually there is more evidence of discarded ideas, but this one doesn't really all that much evidence. The dog only shows up once, and that's in regards to Rena, and then is never seen or mentioned again. If the dog was always a part of his plans all along then he had plenty of chances to include it into the storyline, like with the Reika= Scorpius bit. But the fact that he didn't means that he either A) abandoned the idea or B) he didn't think up at the time. Also the fact that even Japanese fans were surprised by this means that there was no indication for it at all.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

That makes sense. The story doesn't flow well, and things sometimes seem rushed. Maybe he saw that fanbase was wanting a follow-up series and decided to just do it.

And I agree. He is falling prey to the cliches he sets up.

Weell... I don't know exactly how well the Genesis series/OVAs sold (it aired so late at night that ratings are irrelevant), and how many fans the franchise had, but it wasn't very successful or popular, which is not very surprising as the series does tend to be somewhat of an acquired taste. (The OVAs are much more serious and straightforward, and I found them boring and much less charming, because of that.) And by the time Evol was unveiled the only thing most people even knew about Aquarion was the theme song by Akino/Kanno that pretty much encompassed the anime's popularity - I still think that what Amata says in ep 1 about the movie is a reference to this. So it's not like there was an Aquarion fanbase clamoring for MOAR MOAR!! The most common reaction from fans that I've seen when Evol was unveiled was "...what? why? why now?"

And I think for many fans of the earlier series Evol jumped the shark with this episode (as someone mentioned earlier in this thread). It doesn't matter how many "clues" there are in Genesis if no-one has even noticed them until Evol went "HE WAS THE DOG, GUYS!" (and even this way it totally clashes with the end). And I really wonder how much those viewers who haven't seen the first series and haven't spoiled themselves to death (which is to say, most of Evol's viewers) understood from all this. Introducing a twist and then basically saying "if you want to know why this is important watch the prequel" - this is crappy writing, period. Especially since the twist effectively retcons the prequel.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

If the dog was always a part of his plans all along then he had plenty of chances to include it into the storyline, like with the Reika= Scorpius bit.

Exactly.

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Weell... I don't know exactly how well the Genesis series/OVAs sold (it aired so late at night that ratings are irrelevant), and how many fans the franchise had, but it wasn't very successful or popular, which is not very surprising as the series does tend to be somewhat of an acquired taste. (The OVAs are much more serious and straightforward, and I found them boring and much less charming, because of that.) And by the time Evol was unveiled the only thing most people even knew about Aquarion was the theme song by Akino/Kanno that pretty much encompassed the anime's popularity - I still think that what Amata says in ep 1 about the movie is a reference to this. So it's not like there was an Aquarion fanbase clamoring for MOAR MOAR!! The most common reaction from fans that I've seen when Evol was unveiled was "...what? why? why now?"

And I think for many fans of the earlier series Evol jumped the shark with this episode (as someone mentioned earlier in this thread). It doesn't matter how many "clues" there are in Genesis if no-one has even noticed them until Evol went "HE WAS THE DOG, GUYS!" And I really wonder how much those viewers who haven't seen the first series and haven't spoiled themselves to death (which is to say, most of Evol's viewers) understood from all this. Introducing a twist and then basically saying "if you want to know why this is important watch the prequel" - this is crappy writing, period. Especially since the twist effectively retcons the prequel.

You've got a point because I was just on Random Curiosity one day looking at the 2012 preview and I saw that there was a new Aquarion series coming out and I was like "Oh. Didn't know anything about that." And this series definitely has some crap writing. One thing I will say is that I liked the supporting cast a lot more than I was anticipating. So I guess that's like having a crappy burger but the pickles are good.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

^^Basically this.

This is also another reason why I feel that romance wasn't handled well in this series at all. Yeah we see Zessica worry about Amata from afar, but that's about it.

No, that's not about it. Zessica has come to Amata's rescue in real, practical ways several times. Heck, you could arguably even say that she's saved his life before.

Surely that should count for something.


As for what kuro wrote - Zessica flirted with Amata for a long time, which most people would take as possible romantic hints. So why should Amata or any of the other characters in this show be surprised at Zessica confessing feelings to Amata?

The timing of her confession was very surprising, of course, but the simple fact that Zessica had feelings for Amata shouldn't have surprised any character that was paying even the least amount of attention to her interactions with Amata before the confession.

Honestly, I think this anime has handled Zessica's initial crush well, and her confession as well. What came after that is much more questionable, but the lead-up to the confession was fine, I felt.

She doesn't actively chase after him, and for someone who thinks about him so much she really isn't considerate of his feelings.

Short of denying her own feelings, Zessica has been very considerate of Amata's feelings. She hasn't pushed anything on him, she hasn't become angry with him (a lot of girls in her situation would have), and she didn't think less of him because of him seemingly preferring Mikono over her. Short of perfectly and quickly getting over him (which, frankly, lots of real life teenagers with crushes have a hard and long time doing), I don't see how she could have been more considerate towards him.

Not only that but even after she confessed to him, and he tried to turn her down she didn't want to hear it, and instead ran away, and then pulled a desperate move to get his attention, which didn't work and only made things worse for her.

What "desperate move" are you referring to?

Worse yet is that it seems as though she believes that if Amata doesn't end up with Mikono then he'll notice and love her, and she will get Amata.

What's so wrong with that? Should the girl have no hope or self-esteem whatsoever?

You and kuro are awfully hard on Zessica, in my opinion. This wouldn't bother me so much except that both of you are extremely forgiving towards Amata. It does seem like a bit of a double-standard to me...

[miketyson]

Thanks for the answers earlier, kuromitsu and ReddyRedWolf. No easy answer, eh?

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, that's not about it. Zessica has come to Amata's rescue in real, practical ways several times. Heck, you could arguably even say that she's saved his life before.

Surely that should count for something.

I mean actually making an effort to chase after him after she realizes that she likes him. Just saving someone isn't a sign that you love them, nor does it always make that fall for you (if they were interested in someone else) at best it just makes them thankful.

As for what kuro wrote - Zessica flirted with Amata for a long time, which most people would take as possible romantic hints. So why should Amata or any of the other characters in this show be surprised at Zessica confessing feelings to Amata?


The timing of her confession was very surprising, of course, but the simple fact that Zessica had feelings for Amata shouldn't have surprised any character that was paying even the least amount of attention to her interactions with Amata before the confession.

Zessica only flirted with him when she was messing with him and not interested in a relationship. But once she realized that she like him she stopped flirting. And from her characterization it was obvious to everyone both in universe and outside it, that she was playful, so neither Amata nor anyone else took her flirting seriously, and why should they? She wasn't exactly a serious person in this area, and she wasn't being serious with Amata. Plus afterwards she gets really quiet stops flirting around and hanging out with him for no explained reason, no one probably thought much of it.--This was actually something that Kuro pointed out.
Honestly, I think this anime has handled Zessica's initial crush well, and her confession as well. What came after that is much more questionable, but the lead-up to the confession was fine, I felt.

Zessica didn't get serious about Amata until episode 8, and everyone knew she wasn't serious.

Short of denying her own feelings, Zessica has been very considerate of Amata's feelings. She hasn't pushed anything on him, she hasn't become angry with him (a lot of girls in her situation would have), and she didn't think less of him because of him seemingly preferring Mikono over her. Short of perfectly and quickly getting over him (which, frankly, lots of real life teenagers with crushes have a hard and long time doing), I don't see how she could have been more considerate towards him.

Really? is that why she chooses to confess to him in front of everyone during a mock battle, instead of calling him aside and doing it privately? Also who was the person who Amata heard that he wasn't destined to end up with Mikono from again? That's right Zessica, she was trying to get him to stop chasing after Mikono, not because he could get hurt but because she liked him, and she wanted him to look at her. That isn't being kind or considerate to the person you love.

What "desperate move" are you referring to?

changing her style to be more like Mikono, offering herself up as a sacrifice to Altair, the whole "maybe in 12,000 years" thing, after Amata turns her down. And let's not forget trying to convince Amata that Mikono is destined to end up with Kagura.

What's so wrong with that? Should the girl have no hope or self-esteem whatsoever?

Not false hope, to the point of delusion, especially when its proven time and time again that he just isn't interested in her like that. Which makes her "love" for Amata more of an obsession with him than anything else. Most girls after being told no, would try to move on. In fact its more hurtful to your self-esteem to continue to chase after a guy who just isn't interested in you.

You and kuro are awfully hard on Zessica, in my opinion. This wouldn't bother me so much except that both of you are extremely forgiving towards Amata. It does seem like a bit of a double-standard to me...

Because let's face it, Amata hasn't done anything, so there is nothing to blame or forgive him for.

The only thing that I have seen blamed on him is Zessica's behavior and getting in the way of Kagura ending up with Mikono, and lets be honest here, Zessica's current condition is her own fault. It's Zessica's own fault that she refuses to move on, especially after Amata already turned her down. And with Kagura its all one-sided as Mikono hasn't shown an interest in him, just pity.

Its no double standard here.

[kuromitsu]

>miketyson
I think they haven't really thought this through. If the last three eps will really be as epic as advertised and all the bad writing will suddenly, magically make sense I'll reconsider my opinion, but as it is right now...

>Triple_R
Basically, what wisteria said. But just to add some of my thoughts:

I don't know, telling him that he has no chance with the girl he loves and finishing it with "I'm glad you and Mikono are not meant to be because this means I have a chance with you," is not exactly being considerate of his feelings. ^^;; It's a good thing that Amata was too distracted to hear and/or process what she said because he would've had every right to be angry at that. And as for anger, Zessica wouldn't have had any reason to be angry with him - until he didn't know about her feelings he couldn't have been considerate about them.

FWIW, I also think that the way her feelings were handled until her confession was decent - not good, but decent. After that it's pure tragedy, but since we can't exactly ignore that part I'm talking about the entire process from her falling in love until where she is now.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What's so wrong with that? Should the girl have no hope or self-esteem whatsoever?

Er... suppose you're in love. Very much in love. You want that girl (or guy) so much you'll die if you can't have her. Do you sit around waiting for her to throw herself at you and declare her eternal love? And then angst about how you have no chance whatsoever because she doesn't love you and hangs out with the guy who talks to her and takes her out to the movies and stuff? This is not about hope and self-esteem, this is being self-defeating. I'm not saying she should've tried to force herself on him, but really, she basically did nothing to make him like her that way, except for a misguided attempt at dressing like Mikono, and then she goes and tells him to give her a chance 12000 ys later. Um, er, OK, sure? Or, if she's such a good girl that she doesn't want to come between him and Mikono, despite her own feelings, then she should just deal with that and make an actual effort to move on ("actual effort" does not include going to battle just to have him in a gattai if you can't have him any other way, or offering yourself as a sacrifice to the enemy because your life is worthless without him).

I don't think I'm being hard on her - and in any case, I'm not blaming her, as I said I'm way past blaming characters for things that are obviously the writers' fault. But writing problems aside, Zessica brought this on herself. I understand why people feel sorry for her - hell, the writing made sure that viewers would feel very sorry for her - and I'm not saying that feeling sorry for her is bad, but no-one is responsible for her current situation but Zessica herself (well, most recently Mykage as well).

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This wouldn't bother me so much except that both of you are extremely forgiving towards Amata. It does seem like a bit of a double-standard to me...

Er, is saying that Amata is not unhealthily obsessed with Mikono = being extremely forgiving? What's there to be forgiving for, anyway?

Btw no, I'm not getting into that debate again, and I would rather not get into this one either.

[miketyson]

kuromitsu: based on their track record, why would you be skeptical they can't execute on these last three episodes, ? As-is I'm enjoying it for what it is and glad I don't have any real attachment to the original to get in the way, , but beyond that don't have much to add to the discussion these days.

[kuromitsu]

>miketyson
No no, I know my skepticism is absolutely unreasonable, but you know~?
(As for the discussion, I think I'm just going around in circles about the same things... I blame slow days at work and myself being unable to resist the forum.)

[KleenexGhost]

I don't see that happening either. I am hopeful though. Hopefully the final 3 episodes will offer a satisfying conclusion and not do anything stupid like the whole dog twist. Hoping for the best.

As you can tell, a lot of hope. Things can't possibly get worse...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

I mean actually making an effort to chase after him after she realizes that she likes him.

So on the one hand, you and kuro keep saying that Zessica should have done more to chase after him romantically.

On the other hand, you both keep saying that she should just get over him right away, as though that's as easy to do as it is to say.

So which is it? Should she keep chasing after him, or should she just give up on him?

The fact of the matter is that Zessica has done more for Amata than just worry about him.

Just saving someone isn't a sign that you love them,

It's a sign that you care about them.

nor does it always make that fall for you (if they were interested in someone else) at best it just makes them thankful.

No, not at best. A lot of people would be more grateful over getting their lives saved than what Amata has been, imo.

Zessica only flirted with him when she was messing with him and not interested in a relationship.

That's just your opinion and interpretation. I disagree with it. So I also disagree with your argument that she was only interested in a relationship with him starting from Episode 8. I think that her relationship interest in him started long before that.

But once she realized that she like him she stopped flirting.

No, she stopped flirting when she started to feel jealous of Mikono, imo. I think that those jealous feelings made the flirting less enjoyable and/or productive in Zessica's eyes. She had a relationship interest in Amata before she stopped flirting with him, imo.

that she was playful, so neither Amata nor anyone else took her flirting seriously, and why should they?

Flirting, especially between teenagers, often indicates romantic interest. That's why the other characters, including Amata, should have at least considered the very real possibility that Zessica was interested in him.

...is that why she chooses to confess to him in front of everyone during a mock battle, instead of calling him aside and doing it privately?

That was simply her emotions getting the better of her.

Also who was the person who Amata heard that he wasn't destined to end up with Mikono from again?

And who later encouraged Amata to fight fate because she didn't want him to be sad? That's right, Zessica did.

And it's perfectly normal and just being human for a person to be pleased when somebody they have romantic feelings seemingly becomes available. I can't believe that you and kuro are seriously faulting Zessica for that.

You are holding her to the standards of a Saint! It's ridiculous.

changing her style to be more like Mikono,

That's not much of a "desperate move". Even if it is, it's not hurting anyone.

offering herself up as a sacrifice to Altair,

That had to do with a lot more than just Amata.

the whole "maybe in 12,000 years" thing,

That also didn't hurt anyone.

And let's not forget trying to convince Amata that Mikono is destined to end up with Kagura.

Yeah, because one mumbled line is sure going all-out to convince someone, eh? What a hurtful, desperate move!

Not false hope, to the point of delusion, especially when its proven time and time again that he just isn't interested in her like that.

The only thing that's been proven is that Amata is in love with Mikono. We don't know where his mind or feelings might go if he gave up on Mikono. It's not totally inconceivable that he might have a change of heart over Zessica if he was to give up on Mikono.

Which makes her "love" for Amata more of an obsession with him than anything else. Most girls after being told no, would try to move on. In fact its more hurtful to your self-esteem to continue to chase after a guy who just isn't interested in you.

And that's why she hasn't actively chased after him, in spite of what you and kuro might want. She's simply giving him hints that if he gives up on Mikono, she's there for him. I don't see anything particularly inconsiderate or wrong about that, given that Zessica clearly isn't interested in any other guys, and given that Kagura is competing with Amata for Mikono (and LOL at the idea that Mikono is definitely not interested in Kagura; I'm far from the only one that thinks that Mikono gets turned on by Kagura).

Honestly, if I was in Amata's shoes, I'd be flattered by Zessica's actions and I'd feel sorry for her.

Because let's face it, Amata hasn't done anything, so there is nothing to blame or forgive him for.

Inaction itself is blameworthy in some cases. Amata and Mikono's failure to act more quickly and decisively has contributed to massive problems, and it's not like they're unaware of how these problems have been building up (this is especially true in Mikono's case).

The only thing that I have seen blamed on him is Zessica's behavior and getting in the way of Kagura ending up with Mikono,

No, that's not all he's been blamed for. He's been blamed for not confessing to Mikono already. If he's that set on her, then act on it already, which would have helped to mitigate against a whole helluva lot of problems. Amata can be rightly faulted for this... if you're going to be as hard on him as you and kuro are hard on Zessica.

and lets be honest here, Zessica's current condition is her own fault.

"Moving on" is not as easy as you and kuro make it out to be. Amata could have handled matters at least a bit better. He's not entirely blameless in all of this.

I think that you're only considering Amata's feelings, without showing even the slightest consideration to Zessica's.

Is that a double-standard? Well, it looks like one to me.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

>Triple_R
Basically, what wisteria said. But just to add some of my thoughts:

I don't know, telling him that he has no chance with the girl he loves and finishing it with "I'm glad you and Mikono are not meant to be because this means I have a chance with you," is not exactly being considerate of his feelings. ^^;; It's a good thing that Amata was too distracted to hear and/or process what she said because he would've had every right to be angry at that.

So he has a right to be angry at Zessica for inadvertently causing him possible heartache (I myself would have been a bit miffed, but mostly flattered, by Zessica's comment there, but whatever), but she doesn't have a right to be angry at him for causing her the same by sloppily handling an implied rejection of her?

Again, that looks like a double-standard to me...

[Faerie]

First off, I wholly agree with Triple_R on this. Just adding a few thoughts:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, not at best. A lot of people would be more grateful over getting their lives saved than what Amata has been, imo.

I'd go as far as saying that anyone with minimal amounts of decency or basic instruction (pre-school level) in politeness would have been an awful lot more grateful than Amata who failed to ever even acknowledge this.

Amata is hardly a victim, forced into a corner by Zessica's malicious, misguided advances, designed to put him in awkward positions- as one would think reading some of the posts on here...
While technically a nice guy when introduced, he's neither mature nor in command of common decency. He is selfish and obsessive with regards to Mikono: How else can one explain how even the apparent death of a comrade/friend doesn't stop him from having a juvenile brawl over some girl who isn't even his, abandoning any attempts to rescue/recover the comrade who was just saved his life.

I do wonder how on earth do they plan on redeeming Amata and Mikono. I would have no qualms rating them right up there with the cast of School Days in how stunningly unlikeable they have become together.
Especially recently it seems that each really brings out the worst in the other... I honestly wonder what the morale of this show is supposed to be...?!

[Korps!]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

I'd go as far as saying that anyone with minimal amounts of decency or basic instruction (pre-school level) in politeness would have been an awful lot more grateful than Amata who failed to ever even acknowledge this.

You can't blame Amata for being an autist.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So on the one hand, you and kuro keep saying that Zessica should have done more to chase after him romantically.

On the other hand, you both keep saying that she should just get over him right away, as though that's as easy to do as it is to say.

So which is it? Should she keep chasing after him, or should she just give up on him?

The fact of the matter is that Zessica has done more for Amata than just worry about him.

I think both Kuro and I have stated our opinion on the matter several times.

Zessica when she realized that she love him should have tried harder to get his attention, instead of just stepping off to the side feeling sorry for herself.

However, after she truly made an effort to get him to notice her, confessed and he turned her down, she should have tried to move on instead of just falling into depression and feeling sorry for herself. Especially after it became increasingly obvious that her chances her zero.

She just saved him one time, other times she was just being passive aggressive about his relationship with Mikono.

It's a sign that you care about them.

Which doesn't necessarily equate to love, heck it doesn't even equate to caring about them, as fire fighters and police officers save strangers all the time.

No, not at best. A lot of people would be more grateful over getting their lives saved than what Amata has been, imo.

Didn't he have other things to do than worry about Zessica?

That's just your opinion and interpretation. I disagree with it. So I also disagree with your argument that she was only interested in a relationship with him starting from Episode 8. I think that her relationship interest in him started long before that.

Then show me where was it given an indication that she was flirted with him because she was interested in him romantically?

No, she stopped flirting when she started to feel jealous of Mikono, imo. I think that those jealous feelings made the flirting less enjoyable and/or productive in Zessica's eyes. She had a relationship interest in Amata before she stopped flirting with him, imo.

Were we watching the same series? Cause that's not what happened.

Zessica started to feel self conscious around him, in episode 8 when she asked herself why she was embarassed about Amata seeing her with very little clothing on (ironic since she never covers up anyway). Before then she never shown any signs of feeling self conscious towards him. It is also after that episode she stopped flirting altogether. It wasn't because she noticed that Mikono was jealous since Mikono has shown blatant jealousy from the moment she started flirting around with Amata, to the point where Mikono considered wearing more revealing clothing to get his attention (which Zessica saw), and yet Zessica didn't stop flirting with him. Show me the proof that Zessica had a romantic interest in Amata before she stopped flirting with him. If Zessica really found it boring or wrong to make Mikono jealous like that then she would have stopped from episode 5 instead of after episode 8.

Flirting, especially between teenagers, often indicates romantic interest. That's why the other characters, including Amata, should have at least considered the very real possibility that Zessica was interested in him.

Though flirting usually indicates a romantic interest, it is not always true, even for teenagers. Especially if the person, is very playful. In fact people tend to have a harder time figuring out whenever a person who is playful or naturally flirtatious is really serious because of her normal behavior. So there is no way that anyone would have been clued in on it. Not Amata since he doesn't have any experience anyway and was never thinking of her in that manner, not Mix who had issues with males in general, and certainly not Mikono because of Zessica's normal attitude, and again like Amata she doesn't know what to look for.

That was simply her emotions getting the better of her.

Umm..no she had clarity emotional when she confessed to him. Remember she even had to say it twice, so she could have said I'll tell you after the mock battle.

And who later encouraged Amata to fight fate because she didn't want him to be sad? That's right, Zessica did.

While telling him that it would be better that he didn't. And then saying over and over again that Mikono is destine for Kagura. Also Amata decided from episode 18 that he would fight fate if it said that Mikono would end up with Kagura.

And it's perfectly normal and just being human for a person to be pleased when somebody they have romantic feelings seemingly becomes available. I can't believe that you and kuro are seriously faulting Zessica for that.

You are holding her to the standards of a Saint! It's ridiculous.

Its perfectly normal, however, she was already turned down once before. Amata has done nothing to lead this girl into believing that she had a chance with him. And also telling a guy that the girl he likes is meant for another person isn't being happy because he's available its an effort to sabotage whatever relationship that person has or is pursuing with another.


And you're trying to say that she is completely without flaw or fault. Meanwhile you judge both Amata and Mikono by a much more rigid set of rules.

That's not much of a "desperate move". Even if it is, it's not hurting anyone.

no one but herself, a desperate move doens't have to hurt anyone to be desperate. Besides she herself says earlier in the episode guys like Amata go for girls like Mikono before she tries to emulate Mikono's style.

That had to do with a lot more than just Amata.

It had to do with her changing herself to be more like Mikono, which had to do with Amata.

That also didn't hurt anyone.

A desperate move doesn't have to hurt anyone to be desperate.

Yeah, because one mumbled line is sure going all-out to convince someone, eh? What a hurtful, desperate move!

She grabs Amata's arm and outright tells him in episode 15, and then again in episode 18, and he hears her. It was a line meant for Amata and he heard her say it. The simple fact that she keeps saying it to him means that she is trying to convince him of it.

The only thing that's been proven is that Amata is in love with Mikono. We don't know where his mind or feelings might go if he gave up on Mikono. It's not totally inconceivable that he might have a change of heart over Zessica if he was to give up on Mikono.

Arguing about the what ifs is one sinkhole I'm not about to get into, the reality of the series is that he isn't attracted to Zessica romantically.

And that's why she hasn't actively chased after him, in spite of what you and kuro might want. She's simply giving him hints that if he gives up on Mikono, she's there for him. I don't see anything particularly inconsiderate or wrong about that, given that Zessica clearly isn't interested in any other guys, and given that Kagura is competing with Amata for Mikono (and LOL at the idea that Mikono is definitely not interested in Kagura; I'm far from the only one that thinks that Mikono gets turned on by Kagura).

Problem is Zessica was trying to push Amata in giving up on Mikono in a passive aggressive manner. That's why she keeps on telling him that Kagura and Mikono are destined lovers.

Also no Mikono hasn't any interest in Kagura romantically, outside of pity. Its pretty much the first thing she says about Kagura, that she has to apologize to him.
Also in episode 5 Mikono's stun bracelet started to glow when her and Amata were having their moment, the only reason she was stunned by her interaction with Kagura was because Amata had already put her on edge. Followed by that is episode 8 when she was embarrassed that Amata was looking at her, her jealously whenever Zessica flirts with her, and whenever Amata is nice to other girls. Episode 12 during their date, her general fear of Kagura in that episode, her calling out for Amata in her sleep, being calm when she though that Kagura was Amata, and finally her conversation with Shu Shu.

Compared with the fact that she hasn't been shown to be *doki doki* around Kagura.

Yep Mikono really hasn't shown that she isn't turned on by or has shown interest in Amata, nope, nope .

Honestly, if I was in Amata's shoes, I'd be flattered by Zessica's actions and I'd feel sorry for her.

And he did, he thanked her for her feelings and then tried to turn her down, before she ran away.

Inaction itself is blameworthy in some cases. Amata and Mikono's failure to act more quickly and decisively has contributed to massive problems, and it's not like they're unaware of how these problems have been building up (this is especially true in Mikono's case).

Except what has got to do with Zessica? As you said Amata and Mikono's relationship hasn't moved forward (because of Mikono's fear of expressing herself and the cockblocking that was Shu Shu, Kagura, and Fudo Zen), but even then Amata has still done anything to give Zessica any false hope that she had a chance. He hasn't treated any different than he does Andy, and he also turned her down. So really inaction isn't the problem here.

No, that's not all he's been blamed for. He's been blamed for not confessing to Mikono already. If he's that set on her, then act on it already, which would have helped to mitigate against a whole helluva lot of problems. Amata can be rightly faulted for this... if you're going to be as hard on him as you and kuro are hard on Zessica.

Not for lack of trying mind you, or did you forget the first time he tried when Kagura interrupted in episode 5? Or the time that when Fudo Zen and Shu Shu pushed into the hole when he tried to tell her? Or in episode 12 when Kagura attacked killing a good portion of the student body?

Its not as though he hasn't tried to tell her.

"Moving on" is not as easy as you and kuro make it out to be. Amata could have handled matters at least a bit better. He's not entirely blameless in all of this.

How? How could he have handled it better? He already told her in privately that he didn't return her feelings. As well as never gave her any indication that he was thought of her outside their friendship. What should he have done, yelled it out in a public area, embarrassing her before all of her peers?

Or are you trying to say that Amata was obligated to return her feelings or try to return them just because she confessed to him? Someone isn't obligated to return you're feelings just because you tell them that you like them.

I think that you're only considering Amata's feelings, without showing even the slightest consideration to Zessica's.

No, I'm considering Zessica's as well, but it seems as though you're trying to go out of your way to blame Amata for Zessica's self induced problems. Because let me tell you something Zessica's plight of flirting around she had no interest in and knew for a fact was interested in someone else, growing feelings for him and even after confessing to him, being turned down and having those feelings returned isn't anything new . I've seen it happen all the time with my female friends, hell I've been through it myself (yes I'm a girl) and for a time they behaved like Zessica, however they got over it and moved on. Because staying fixated on that guy to the point of obsession, kills your self-esteem. If you feel that you have to change yourself that much just to get a guy to notice or like you, then he isn't worth it.

In all of these cases the guy is faultless, after all he didn't force the girl to flirt with him, he didn't force her to fall for him, hell he even turned her down, and didn't do anything to give her any false hope. So if the girl refuses to move on its her fault, not his, since she already knows how he feels.

Is that a double-standard? Well, it looks like one to me.

It seems more like YOU'RE the one the one with the double standard as you expect Amata to go above and beyond to make sure that Zessica gets it through her head that he isn't interested in her. He did his part when he refused her and didn't do anything to give her any false hope (which is more than what most guys do). After he has done that then it is no longer his responsibility. Because the worst thing that he can do is try to help her. I said it once and I'll say it again Zessica's current condition is her own fault, to say differently is a double-standard.

[finalfury]

there are pleny of anime/real life situations where someone is rejected by someone, but the person who gave the rejection later falls in love with the person they rejected.
Ex. Toradora(Taiga rejects Yuusaku(glasses guy) but later falls in love with him( the falling in love
happened soon after the rejection). My two cents.
BTW, Amata and Zessica both deserve to be blamed for their respective actions, and they have suffered(Amata less than Zessica cause Mykage invading your body= death flag).
now one quick question:
Does anyone besides me think Zessica/Mykage fusion is awesome as hell(My tears for the poor girl have already run dry) but that expression she makes at the end and in the preview is awesome.

[crayven]

>wisteria233

She grabs Amata's arm and outright tells him in episode 15, and then again in episode 18, and he hears her. It was a line meant for Amata and he heard her say it. The simple fact that she keeps saying it to him means that she is trying to convince him of it.

What did Zessica say in ep 18 that was meant to convince Amata that Mikono and Kagura are destined lovers? Sorry I couldn't remember it.
Also,

Problem is Zessica was trying to push Amata in giving up on Mikono in a passive aggressive manner. That's why she keeps on telling him that Kagura and Mikono are destined lovers.

telling a guy that the girl he likes is meant for another person isn't being happy because he's available its an effort to sabotage whatever relationship that person has or is pursuing with another.

First of all, the reason she first told him about Mikono/Kagura - Apollon/Sylvie was not because she wanted Amata to leave Mikono for her. Amata was so worried about Kagura hurting Mikono that he nearly got crushed by a car so Zessica told him about the vision to *calm him down*. Nothing about pushing Amata to leave Mikono there.

Let's not forget that the vision in the mirror was Mykage's work who wanted to take advantage of her by raising her hope up and then crush it later to hijack her body. Even then, her first thought was to worry that Amata was going to be left behind in ep 14. And after telling Amata about the false vision she later told him in ep 16 that fate didn't matter and encouraged him to fight it which means to not give up Mikono to some fated lover. That was when fate was her only chance of getting Amata.

So no, Zessica didn't keep on telling Amata that Mikono and Kagura are fated lovers (I'm having trouble remembering Zessica talking to him about Apollon/Sylvie apart from episode 15) and she didn't push Amata to give up Mikono, that's patently wrong.


And Zessica was interested in Amata right from the first episode although it was probably more about his fighting ability then.

Spoiler for Proof:

[
"you mean it was instinct? oh my, a wild one~" (Thanks to kuromitsu for the BD summary)

She trusted him enough to ask him to accompany her home because of her fear of the dark in ep 7 (a plot point that I think may come into play again in the last episodes) so I'd argue that she started to like him subconsciously between ep 5 and 7.

Remember in ep 21 when she fondly remembered about her first time meeting Amata and her first gattai with him, not when they fought together in ep 8? It's because she was interested in him from the beginning.

She just saved him one time, other times she was just being passive aggressive about his relationship with Mikono.

- She called in Cayenne who shot Kagura in ep 15.
- She kissed him to save him from the Cherubim's attack in ep 21. And the reason they were there was because Amata thought Mikono was calling for him through his dream.
- She went through the dimensional gate and helped Amata and Shrade fight the Cherubim in ep 22 after hearing Amata's near confession to Mikono.
More than one time for me and all three times she did it out of her concern for him, not about him and Mikono in any way.

[Zuul]

Hillarious. People trying to put all the blame on evil Zessica.
Zessica's love at least come of as selfless, the same thing cannot be said of Amata's obssession who lets a comrade agonize under boulders to engage in a dickcontest with his love rival.

First : Zessica brought up the destiny thing in episode 15 to reassure Amata about the fact Kagura won't do anything bad to Mikono. After that she is perfectly honest and straightforwardly tell him it made her a little happy because it gave her a bit of hope. She was just honest because it was obvious it won't paint her in a good light from Amata's POV.

Second : In episode 17, seeing the whole destiny thing was hurting Amata (he thought then he wasn't the destined one), she cheered him on it, going against her best interest.

Third : the only one who is suffering from Zessica's love is Zessica. She hasn't tried to interfere, she has just been honest.




People just seem mad because Zessica's unrequited love highlights Mikono not seeming to care much about Amata or doing anything for him. (Be it intentionnal or bad writting for the sake of suspens and dragging).


Just to be clear, I don't ship ZessicaxAmata. I think the best thing that could have happened to her would have been idiot not interfering when she decided to have Izumo take her. Altea's brainwashing would have done wonder erasing her/his painful love. Besides poor Andy wouldn't be so sad.

[kuromitsu]

Not touching the discussion (haven't even read it, fwiw), but this caught my eye:

Originally Posted by Korps!

You can't blame Amata for being an autist.

Aaaaand here it is! To be honest I thought Mikono would be the one who gets assigned some mental issue by her haters, but I suppose people hate Amata more because of Zessica. Now, if we want to do it as well as the big guys (re: Bleach, etc.) we need some "unbiased, factual" essays about why Amata not being in love with Zessica means he's an autist and the spawn of Satan who should just kill himself to "solve the conflict."

And people still seem to be pretending that this is some unbiased, logical discussion that totally has nothing to do with being bitter over Zessica and resenting Amata for not loving her... I bet that all the horrible, horrible things Amata has done that you're blaming him for would be forgiven in a heartbeat if the writers gave Amata to Zessica, and it would be the best twist liek evar and not convulted at all.