Madoka Magica - Episodes 11 & 12 Discussion/Poll - Final Episodes!

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by mols

Yes... but that was before she changed the way the world(s) worked...I think.
So she was able to speak with them because they were dead. Once she changes everything, they are alive.

And so they do live again: we see them living once more in the final timeline, upset by Sayaka's death fighting demons on behalf of Kyokuske.

Still, this afterlife scene is good evidence of where MGs go after they die. I don't think Madoka's wish changes things here. They will eat cake forever.

Originally Posted by mols

Then again, if Madoka is still in the past, present and future, for her everyone is dead and alive, at the same time.

You wonder how she tells them apart...

Originally Posted by mols

Personally, I like to think that she no longer needs to destroy the witches of the past since they no longer exist. And I don't think that the past keeps occurring over and over again. She "fixed"everything at the same time. So, now, there is only the present/future... anyway, that is how I see things. Keeping multiple realities at the same time is too much for me.

Far be it from me to wade into the time-paradox question.

I want to point out that just as there are impossible clues in the final timeline of Madoka's existence, there may be similar impossible clues of later Madoka's ascension in the first eleven episodes. I am thinking of the static Madoka flashes on in episode 8, or the graphic of an opening furry eyelid in episodes 4 and 10.

The former may represent ordinary Madoka's experience of her future self's omniscient perspective intersecting with her across time, which she registers as static, since she is as yet only an ordinary human girl.

The latter may indicate a cosmic standpoint from which all the different timelines consolidate, under the perspective of an omniscient viewer. Thus the eyelids allude (very) obscurely to ultimate Madoka's metaphysical standpoint. Perhaps it is she who enables Homura to travel back in time. (Now that I think about it, first timeline Homura is a complete lightweight: isn't it unlikely that she should be able to accomplish such a powerful wish? But if future Madoka is helping out, all is explained.) Perhaps it is future Madoka who reconstitutes her earlier self after it is torn to pieces during her encounter with the witch tormenting Hitomi and the other people.

Or not. I freely confess to making up these explanations to make sense of some elements of the animation that are otherwise unexplained, and likely inexplicable. But if anyone can think of any other "Future Madoka will have been here" moments, I'd love to hear them. Plus we'll all get to use the future past subjunctive!

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

The latter may indicate a cosmic standpoint from which all the different timelines consolidate, under the perspective of an omniscient viewer. Thus the eyelids allude (very) obscurely to ultimate Madoka's metaphysical standpoint. Perhaps it is she who enables Homura to travel back in time. (Now that I think about it, first timeline Homura is a complete lightweight: isn't it unlikely that she should be able to accomplish such a powerful wish? But if future Madoka is helping out, all is explained.) Perhaps it is future Madoka who reconstitutes her earlier self after it is torn to pieces during her encounter with the witch tormenting Hitomi and the other people.

Or not. I freely confess to making up these explanations to make sense of some elements of the animation that are otherwise unexplained, and likely inexplicable. But if anyone can think of any other "Future Madoka will have been here" moments, I'd love to hear them. Plus we'll all get to use the future past subjunctive!

To go into the idea that future Madoka somehow gave Homura the strength to make her wish is just asking for a paradox more confusing than the one we're already dealing with. Especially since it is Homura's time traveling that enables Madoka to have the strength necessary to become the omniscient Madoka, so there's something intrinsically wrong with saying that future Madoka was the one who gave Homura the power necessary to make her own creation possible.

Wow, that hurt my head. <_<

[mols]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Plus we'll all get to use the future past subjunctive!

I must confess that I am not quite sure I know what is that. I am sure that I use it. correctly. But mentioned like that, I wouldn't.

Back to Madoka, I think that what we saw before the final episode did not have any omnipresent Madoka involved... I can't explain why or anything. It's just a feeling: Madoka's wish was made only once, and though she did destroy all the past and present witches she is no longer in the past. I think the timelines (or however I should call them) fused after this. And now Madoka keeps destroying the witches that appear before they are born...well, you get I mean.

...I realize that I just said the same thing I said before, but it doesn't bother any one, so it is ok.

[mols]

Originally Posted by Akashin

To go into the idea that future Madoka somehow gave Homura the strength to make her wish is just asking for a paradox more confusing than the one we're already dealing with. Especially since it is Homura's time traveling that enables Madoka to have the strength necessary to become the omniscient Madoka, so there's something intrinsically wrong with saying that future Madoka was the one who gave Homura the power necessary to make her own creation possible.

Wow, that hurt my head. <_<

Indeed.
Madoka's reach into the past was a one off I think. Now she can only kill the future witches. And eat cake as well.
Or rather, I hope. If things get more complex I won't know how to watch the show anymore , backwards maybe?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

(Now that I think about it, first timeline Homura is a complete lightweight: isn't it unlikely that she should be able to accomplish such a powerful wish? But if future Madoka is helping out, all is explained.)

I disagree on this. QB explains magical girl "potential" is equivalent to the burden/suffering they shoulder. If you listened to the drama CD, you'll notice Homura from the first timeline has a tougher life than Madoka, which easily explains the wish she can pull off.

In fact, I'd say that Madoka from the first time line should have less potential than Homura, as per QB's explanation.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I disagree on this. QB explains magical girl "potential" is equivalent to the burden/suffering they shoulder. If you listened to the drama CD, you'll notice Homura from the first timeline has a tougher life than Madoka, which easily explains the wish she can pull off.

In fact, I'd say that Madoka from the first time line should have less potential than Homura, as per QB's explanation.

When I called Homura a lightweight, I was thinking how ineffective she was as a magical girl in the first couple of timelines. But you're right: QB does relate a MG's magical potential to "the misfortune she's destined to carry," as he tells Homura in the beginning of episode 11. And since Homura's childhood illness gives her more misfortune than Madoka, presumably her magical potential was greater than Madoka's at first, as you say.

The anime doesn't make an issue of Homura's wish, so you must be right that her potential was sufficient to accomplish her wish.

Still, I find it odd that the furry eye should appear just at this particular moment. It certainly suggests that whatever beheld Madoka's reconstitution in the earlier episode is beholding Homura's temporal reconstitution in the later episode, and that both events are of the same kind and magnitude, and occur in the same metaphysical space. Homura's wish seems to reach a level of reality that is invoked originally to bring Madoka back together after she has been torn to pieces by Elly's familiars. Since that power is never identified, I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb by assigning it to future Madoka. Hence future Madoka may be involved in Homura's time-traveling as well.

Originally Posted by Akashin

To go into the idea that future Madoka somehow gave Homura the strength to make her wish is just asking for a paradox more confusing than the one we're already dealing with. Especially since it is Homura's time traveling that enables Madoka to have the strength necessary to become the omniscient Madoka, so there's something intrinsically wrong with saying that future Madoka was the one who gave Homura the power necessary to make her own creation possible.

Wow, that hurt my head. <_<

Didn't Cantor prove there are bigger and smaller infinities?

But future Madoka does things to make her own existence impossible. Presumably, future Madoka prevents the witch of timeline one from ever existing, so that Madoka of timeline one never dies fighting it, and Homura never has to make her wish to protect Madoka, in which case Madoka never became future Madoka in the first place. We rather need future Madoka doing something to make her own future existence possible--although what that is, I don't know, since her powers all seem to concentrate in the witch-prevention side of things.

All the above is facetious of course. The serious point is that there is this back influence from the future radiating back into the previous timelines. I think you can argue that what we thought was Madoka remembering a previous timeline (the opening of timeline 5), is really Madoka somehow imperfectly relating to her future self, and thereby remembering the previous timeline.

[Gono]

Something I am still wondering about is the scene after the credits where Homura is fighting demons in what could possibly be a barrier. It appears she begins to turn into a witch, but I can't be sure. Thoughts?

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Didn't Cantor prove there are bigger and smaller infinities?

But future Madoka does things to make her own existence impossible. Presumably, future Madoka prevents the witch of timeline one from ever existing, so that Madoka of timeline one never dies fighting it, and Homura never has to make her wish to protect Madoka, in which case Madoka never became future Madoka in the first place. We rather need future Madoka doing something to make her own future existence possible--although what that is, I don't know, since her powers all seem to concentrate in the witch-prevention side of things.

All the above is facetious of course. The serious point is that there is this back influence from the future radiating back into the previous timelines. I think you can argue that what we thought was Madoka remembering a previous timeline (the opening of timeline 5), is really Madoka somehow imperfectly relating to her future self, and thereby remembering the previous timeline.

Nothing you've said here is wrong per se, at least not in the strict sense that I can prove you right or wrong. And saying that Madoka's moments of remembering (the aforementioned dream, the static moment in episode 8 and (very arguably) the "Homu" moment of timeline 4) could have been caused by her future self isn't any less likely than saying it was caused by her being the center of Homura's time loops, since the series never gives us any strict hints either way.

I'm still going to go ahead and dismiss the idea of future Madoka being active in any way, shape or form prior to the end of the series, though. If she were somehow active then there wouldn't have been any Witches within the series proper, since timeless, future Madoka would already have eliminated them. So while saying that future Madoka might have had an indirect influence on her past self is plausible in theory, I have trouble accepting her having had any direct influence (though her being the furry-eyed observer is possible).

Originally Posted by Gono

Something I am still wondering about is the scene after the credits where Homura is fighting demons in what could possibly be a barrier. It appears she begins to turn into a witch, but I can't be sure. Thoughts?

Read through the past few pages; there have been several snippets of debates on that here and there. I haven't tried to get into a debate on that since I haven't gotten around to rewatching the 12th episode yet, so I'll give a completely uninformed cop-out and say it's up to viewer interpretation. Take that for what it's worth; which is to say, absolutely nothing.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Snork

We seem to be getting enough votes for a petition to Tri-Ace soon.
Concerning other magical girls... Like I said, at the moment if their demise, overloaded with despair, Madoka may seem like a saviour to them. I think it was a line in Hagoshod's fanfic? "God? I didn't think you were a magical girl..." and we know Madoka redefines sweet person, so getting along with everyone will be a matter of time, which they definitely won't lack.

Thats a great idea a crossover like Super Robo Wars...Mahou Shoujo Wars!

[Arju1712]

I apologize if this has been asked before, but does Madoka's wish make her omnipresent only in the 5th timeline, or all timelines?

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Arju1712

I apologize if this has been asked before, but does Madoka's wish make her omnipresent only in the 5th timeline, or all timelines?

From my understanding over all time and space...

[Riga92]

Originally Posted by Arju1712

I apologize if this has been asked before, but does Madoka's wish make her omnipresent only in the 5th timeline, or all timelines?

She's omnipresent in all timelines. She even mentioned to Homura before they separated that she saw all of Homura's efforts in the previous timelines.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Didn't Cantor prove there are bigger and smaller infinities?

Well he proved there's a countable infinity, and an uncountable infinity.

The natural numbers which includes all positive whole numbers (Sometimes 0, other times not)... It is a countable set since it has a natural way to count off the number of elements in the set.

In mathematics the cardinality of a set of elements is the number of elements in that set. We say that the cardinality of the natural numbers is, ℵ0 which is the lowest infinity. It can be proved that the integers and the rational numbers have the same cardinality, as they are also countable sets.

The problem arises when we reach the set of the real numbers, which includes irrational numbers. There's no way to actually count the numbers between 0 and 1. It is an uncountable set, and that's why the number of elements in this set is of a greater infinity, in this case denoted ℵ1 (Well if the continuum hypothesis holds.)

All in all, I'm not exactly sure how this is all relevant to what you were talking about, so please enlighten me. Unless you're trying to make a point about infinite time lines, in which case I still don't see your point...

[RDF2050]

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by Solace

Okay, finally watched the subbed version. Time for some thoughts.

First off, that was a nice and clean ending, with small ambiguous stuff left to ponder when you're done watching. I didn't feel anything was contrived or unexplainable. Second, Gen....you're a bastard. I love you. Thank you for the gift of a moving story with a heartfelt ending.

So, Madoka becomes a goddess eh? Seems about right. I'm sure her final words to Homura about meeting again are literal...she just earned her powers and she's got a lot of work to do, time and space are infinite y'know.

I loved the wish. It was pretty close to how I surmised things would be resolved, and I loved that Kyubey was forced to eat it. YEAH! I loved his reaction: THIS IS TREASON! It's funny how true the interviews were: Kyubey was Kyubey until the very end.

Mami and Kyoko are saved. Not bad. I suspect the reason we don't see them in the end is because Homura has become a psuedo avatar of Madoka, basically a "mega" Magical Girl with few repercussions. Her limitless drive makes her the perfect weapon to defend humanity against grief and despair for all time. While Madoka is eradicating Witches, she's cleaning up the universe. Nice.

I think the new system, where Magical Girls "disappear" when they exhaust their magic, is something the audience are meant to interpret how we see fit. Some of us might believe they're gone for good, some of us might see them being reborn or sent to heaven, etc. I think being reborn is the route I'll go in believing their fates. Madoka and Sayaka's final meeting didn't seem all that "final".

I know some will rage at Sayaka's decision, but to me it felt right. It's what she really wanted, what she came to terms with. She settled her regrets by facing her true self. A fitting way for her character to exit the stage.

The music and animation were gorgeous. There were some animation errors, but I was so immersed I hardly noticed them.

If anyone does think this ending is bittersweet, consider this: Madoka was supposed to be erased completely from mortal existence. Clearly this is not the case, even if Madoka has become something beyond human. Also consider that the story deals heavily in alternate universes/timelines. Madoka didn't become a goddess in all of them, and the chances a mortal Madoka exists in most of them are extremely large.

Simply stated, the story ends in a way that you can pull your own hopes and dreams from it, and feel rewarded for investing your time in it. It's a rare feat, anime or otherwise.

10/10

It is amazing you got the concept of how the wish must be even before the episode came out. You truly an amazing person. I started watching the anime kinda late to the party but when I read your post, it just makes sense the Madoka's wish must change the MG/Witch system in order to at least benefit MG somehow. Can I give you some reputation points or rather Goddess Madoka Points ?

As for the anime, I was speechless after episode 3. The show got better and better in each episode. These episodes keep forcing me want to watch more, more and more as the story develop and at the same time even some writing elements aren't original, the way the shaft's staff use it, keep me to stay watching until the end. I knew since Episode 3, this anime will not be the classic and boring "and they live happy ever after" which is so overused as well as very lame. I love how this anime ends because it just show no everything is black and white in life.

10/10 to this awesome anime. I wish more anime could be like this

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Nothing you've said here is wrong per se, at least not in the strict sense that I can prove you right or wrong. And saying that Madoka's moments of remembering (the aforementioned dream, the static moment in episode 8 and (very arguably) the "Homu" moment of timeline 4) could have been caused by her future self isn't any less likely than saying it was caused by her being the center of Homura's time loops, since the series never gives us any strict hints either way.

I don't know how you could prove one or the other. Only, the former possibility is established in canon, via what we learn in episode 12; while the latter is an interpretation generated to explain the anomalies you list. I think trying to explain the anomalies via Future Madoka is slightly more parsimonious. Of course that proves nothing: reality need not follow parsimony.

Originally Posted by Akashin

I'm still going to go ahead and dismiss the idea of future Madoka being active in any way, shape or form prior to the end of the series, though. If she were somehow active then there wouldn't have been any Witches within the series proper, since timeless, future Madoka would already have eliminated them. So while saying that future Madoka might have had an indirect influence on her past self is plausible in theory, I have trouble accepting her having had any direct influence (though her being the furry-eyed observer is possible).

Future Madoka intervenes minimally, since the anomalies we are talking about are very marginal things. But that would be enough to make sure that she eventually makes the wish that will at once vanquish witches forever, so a low-key level of intervention would be sufficient to accomplish her future purpose. Also, you will notice that once she ascends into heaven, her power then while universal is also highly constrained. As hope, she is available to everyone, but in a personal and direct form, only Homura, her brother, and perhaps her mother are even able to perceive her. Arguably, she relates to the universe in which she is preeminent in the same low-key fashion that she does, hypothetically, to the universe that precedes her apotheosis. The flamboyant uses of Madoka's power to which you refer occur mainly in the interstitial period between universes, and possibly, only in the brief moment when a MG is about to die--and not to the day-to-day reality of the universe, in which the earlier episodes transpire.

Reckoner, re Cantor, I was making a mathematical analogy to Akashin's distinction between lesser and more confusing time paradoxes. If I meant anything other than a joke, it was to remind Akashin that even less confusing time paradoxes are as replete with contradictions as more confusing ones.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Future Madoka intervenes minimally, since the anomalies we are talking about are very marginal things. But that would be enough to make sure that she eventually makes the wish that will at once vanquish witches forever, so a low-key level of intervention would be sufficient to accomplish her future purpose. Also, you will notice that once she ascends into heaven, her power then while universal is also highly constrained. As hope, she is available to everyone, but in a personal and direct form, only Homura, her brother, and perhaps her mother are even able to perceive her. Arguably, she relates to the universe in which she is preeminent in the same low-key fashion that she does, hypothetically, to the universe that precedes her apotheosis. The flamboyant uses of Madoka's power to which you refer occur mainly in the interstitial period between universes, and possibly, only in the brief moment when a MG is about to die--and not to the day-to-day reality of the universe, in which the earlier episodes transpire.

If Gen wanted us to believe future god-like Madoka had anything to do with the events that made Madoka's ultimate wish possible, he would have made it more obvious.

Just my two cents.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by RDF2050

It is amazing you got the concept of how the wish must be even before the episode came out. You truly an amazing person. I started watching the anime kinda late to the party but when I read your post, it just makes sense the Madoka's wish must change the MG/Witch system in order to at least benefit MG somehow. Can I give you some reputation points or rather Goddess Madoka Points ?

Well....I'm flattered! I'm also pretty happy with how close I got, but it wasn't perfect, and I never would have thought of half of the stuff I predicted (not just in that post but in many others) without the excellent discussing partners in this forum. However, I do appreciate the compliments.

Most importantly, I'm glad you stuck with the show and enjoyed it so much!

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

I don't know how you could prove one or the other. Only, the former possibility is established in canon, via what we learn in episode 12; while the latter is an interpretation generated to explain the anomalies you list. I think trying to explain the anomalies via Future Madoka is slightly more parsimonious. Of course that proves nothing: reality need not follow parsimony.

While I fully agree that you can't really prove one over the other, I disagree that Madoka having a connection to the previous timelines isn't established in canon. While that is not outright stated it's pretty clear that she has at least some form of connection to the other timelines, if for no other reason than the fact that she is shouldering the karma built up through all of them. That that grants her a minimal ability to recall immediately recent events from the previous timeline isn't much of a stretch.

Future Madoka intervenes minimally, since the anomalies we are talking about are very marginal things. But that would be enough to make sure that she eventually makes the wish that will at once vanquish witches forever, so a low-key level of intervention would be sufficient to accomplish her future purpose. Also, you will notice that once she ascends into heaven, her power then while universal is also highly constrained. As hope, she is available to everyone, but in a personal and direct form, only Homura, her brother, and perhaps her mother are even able to perceive her. Arguably, she relates to the universe in which she is preeminent in the same low-key fashion that she does, hypothetically, to the universe that precedes her apotheosis. The flamboyant uses of Madoka's power to which you refer occur mainly in the interstitial period between universes, and possibly, only in the brief moment when a MG is about to die--and not to the day-to-day reality of the universe, in which the earlier episodes transpire.

Reckoner, re Cantor, I was making a mathematical analogy to Akashin's distinction between lesser and more confusing time paradoxes. If I meant anything other than a joke, it was to remind Akashin that even less confusing time paradoxes are as replete with contradictions as more confusing ones.

I'm well aware that we're knee-deep in contradictions regardless of which way we go. All the same, it's easier to swallow Madoka somehow eliminating all Witches without causing drastic long-term changes than it is to swallow her future self granting Homura the power necessary to do the time travel necessary to allow Madoka to become strong enough to make a wish that allows her to become the future self that, in the end, gave Homura the power to do all that in the first place.

It's mostly a distinction without a difference, but my point stands all the same.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

If Gen wanted us to believe future god-like Madoka had anything to do with the events that made Madoka's ultimate wish possible, he would have made it more obvious.

Just my two cents.

Agreed, mostly, but given the lack of explanation on some things, it's fun to speculate on. Unlikely that any of it amounts to much, of course, but fun nonetheless.

[CrimsonSunshine]

Well, the last two episodes were a mindscrew for me. Not sure if I'm just stupid, or if it's because I was watching it at seven AM. I understand...but...eh. I'm satisfied with the ending, but I definitely think it could have been improved. It sort of felt like the other three girls didn't get their shining moment in the finale, despite appearing once or twice. I did enjoy it though.

For now, I won't give it a ranking...

[Shakiga]

For me, the last episode was pretty satisfying. Although I don't understand what's with Homura at the end (she got chaotic wings?). Is it because she fights too much in the new world and leveled up!? If so, then it's kinda silly reason to me... 10 points anyway ^^

Also, just read through wiki, found out Homura's old ability wasn't complete time travel. That explained why she didn't travel back 2 or 3 days before but has to be 1 full month.