Why are so many anime series fascinated with incest?

[Kameruka]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

I don't get it either but I agree with you. INCEST IS NASTY. XP

What about yaoi incest? I've seen too many Dante x Virgil in deviantArt. I think my eyes turned grey when seeing them.

[Ithekro]

My imagination sees a section of those interested are those that have no siblings, nor close cousins. After that point...I don't know.

On the otherhand, in Kanon the popular pairing (at least for the anime) seem to be with Nayuki or her mother. Of course that is legal in Japan.

[NeoChan]

Many viewers are just fascinated with these kind of anime because the "lucky guy" has a beautiful cousin, stepsister and stepmother (thanks Dad!!!)

In reality, it's kinda scandalous, well in many countries.. just imagine your stepmother. You truly are one big "MF", oh.. make it "SMF".

I tried to talk with these issues to some otakus at my place... and they all agreed in calling me a pervert, filty creature and an asshole...

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Just because I think it's worth noting in regards to this discussion: first cousin marriage is legal in Japan.

Actually, "first cousin" marriage is legal in most of the WORLD (over half the 50 states of the US as well) and until recently was quite the norm, especially in rural areas where your available selection was limited. The original impetus for "cousin marriage is squicky" was entirely the fact that you were likely from the country and it was a way for city slickers to put you down. By definition - cousin marriage isn't "incest". Children raised together but not blood-related is only "social incest" at best.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

uggh. i am an incest hater. a huge one. and i cannot stomache such vulgarity that it makes me throw up literally. i watched yosuga no sora to the end for the mere reason of jus finishing it. but i had to skip at 'those' parts between sora and haru.

now, it might be hypocrisy but i do not mind incest between girls and i dunno why. Lol. but yeah, incest has to be the most disgusting to ever happen to an anime.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Kameruka

What about yaoi incest? I've seen too many Dante x Virgil in deviantArt. I think my eyes turned grey when seeing them.

Incest of any kind is nasty. The only one I tolerate is "twincest". Because twins are closer than regular siblings. I like the myth that they are believed to be reincarnated lovers who committed suicide together. That's tragic but moving.

incest has to be the most disgusting to ever happen to an anime.

Uh....if you haven't watched anything intended for 18+, I have news for you.

[speedyexpress48]

Meh, if you are so disgusted by it, just think of it as love and don't think about the brotherxsister part. Personally I don't get why people are so disgusted by it in anime.

Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu

but yeah, incest has to be the most disgusting to ever happen to an anime.

Obviously you haven't watched much anime.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Yaoi, yuri, incest, student-teacher...really, I could ask the same thing about any kind of "forbidden" relationship and it would likely boil down to exotic appeal. I can only count the number of times I've been baited...

[Undertaker]

That that I condone it in real life, but I don't dislike it. In fact I like it as long as they are kept in fictional world.

With that being said, there are plenty country right now that doesn't have laws against them, in including Japan and France. (guess now we know why France manage to become such a huge market for manga and anime. )

Besides, history tells us that inbreeding had occurred through out history and not in small number, especially in upper societies. Heck, If you look at European histories (or Japanese and Chinese), almost every kings and queens are related in some way, maybe not blood sibling, but cousins, nieces, nephews are all incredibly common.

But really, I blame all the myth. Greek Myth are build on incest same with Japanese Myth or Chinese Myth, even Indian and Egyptian Myth the all have sibling incest at every least involving some of the major deities.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

That that I condone it in real life, but I don't dislike it. In fact I like it as long as they are kept in fictional world.

There are certain situations where I don't mind it in real life either. Notably, I can remember a news story from a year or two ago about a couple that started dating and fell in love, only to learn in the end that they were brother and sister and had been separated at birth or something. In situations like that, where the Westermarck Effect hasn't established itself and the couple in question were very much in love before and after knowing, I have absolutely no problem with it.

In fiction, I just see it as another fetish really. A more sensational one than others perhaps, but still just a fetish. I don't really think any more deeply on it than that.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by genjichan

Is it immoral?

It depends on what you mean by "moral". Morality to me is a means of achieving and preserving a just society which, among other things, requires the minimisation — if not elimination — of harm. Given that incestuous (sibling-sibling, parent-child) relationships would raise the risk of hereditary disease in offspring — the increased risk is there; that's a fact, even if you wish to disagree on the degree of increase — then, yes, I do see it as immoral. It would be unconscionable for me to allow people to knowingly enter an incestuous affair.

Originally Posted by genjichan

Is it acceptable?

Incest involving first cousins may — and only just may — be acceptable on the grounds that the risk of hereditary disease in offspring is markedly lower than that for sibling-sibling or parent-child relationships. Also, on a social and historical basis, there is far less ground for objection, as such "incest" has indeed been common, especially in sparsely populated rural communities.

It doesn't mean that I find it desirable though. If it can be avoided, it should be.

Originally Posted by genjichan

You may say it's just ok, but remind you, "Is it ok in a real setting?"

It's hard to imagine how a mutually consensual sibling-sibling, parent-child relationships could even arise in the first place, given the well-documented Westermarck effect. If you've lived all your life with a brother or sister, chances are far greater you'd be mutually irritated by all your individual quirks and bad habits than to actually "fall in love".

Given the odds against such kinds of incest, the question of whether it's OK is generally moot. And if it does happen, you'll almost always find it to involve abuse, especially in the case of parent-child incest. So, the answer for me is an emphatic NO. I'll never be able to accept such cases of incest to be OK. I'm sorry, but I won't budge on this position, with respect to sibling-sibling, parent-child incest. This isn't about being "progressive" or "liberal". It's about preventing harm.

Originally Posted by genjichan

What about the Japaneses' view about this matter?

Your guess, along with that of everyone else on this thread, is as good as mine. We can opine all we want, but until someone produces a statistical survey of Japanese on the topic, I don't see how anyone can give anything that amounts to a factual answer.

As a general opinion, I find it creepy that there are anime and manga producers — and an audience — who find incest erotic. But, then again, there are many kinds of art that deliberately tries to be creepy. That doesn't make it any more or less "wrong". It's how people react to the art that matters, not the art itself.

Originally Posted by genjichan

Fiction and non fiction are different from one another but tend to affect one another.

You are, in effect, asking if media of any kind can affect perceptions on incest, making it socially acceptable. And I think we all know where such questions would lead on AnimeSuki. I am personally of the belief that media does matter. It's naive to think that it doesn't, for why else would academics bother to publish papers, why would marketers bother to advertise?

But regardless of the degree of media influence, the ultimate choice of whether to commit incest still depends on individual. He or she can just as easily choose not to indulge as much as he or she can choose to do so.

[speedyexpress48]

So an increased risk of hereditary disease is enough to say no one should enjoy it? People enjoy watching dangerously stupid shit all the time.

[Ichihara Asako]

Originally Posted by speedyexpress48

So an increased risk of hereditary disease is enough to say no one should enjoy it? People enjoy watching dangerously stupid shit all the time.

I dislike people bringing this up. As long as it doesn't involve procreation (which the vast majority of sex does not) there's no harm on this front. Also the chances even with direct siblings are less than most people seem to think, as you move to cousins and second cousins and such it's pretty much the same as usual.

Anyway, anime is fiction. Not sure why people get so worked up over it. There's a market for it (usually from people who have no siblings or similar familiar issues) so it sells, companies make what sells. That's about it.

[Vexx]

Aye, I find it fascinating that people immediately jump to the relatively minor risk in regard to procreation issues (smoking is far worse by comparison). Its a variation on the "think of the children" meme intended to shut down rational discourse.

Yes, anime is fiction/fantasy. Arguing that it "promotes" problematic behaviors is as sketchy as claiming murder mysteries promote violence.

I think most of TRL's bullet points are spot on. In real life (too often), incest is simply a symptom of an abusive relationship -power, control. Those are generally NOT features of anime fantasies on the topic. Between two people who have chosen to depend on each other? Not my business and I have no right to interfere.

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

It depends on what you mean by "moral". Morality to me is a means of achieving and preserving a just society which, among other things, requires the minimisation — if not elimination — of harm. Given that incestuous (sibling-sibling, parent-child) relationships would raise the risk of hereditary disease in offspring — the increased risk is there; that's a fact, even if you wish to disagree on the degree of increase — then, yes, I do see it as immoral. It would be unconscionable for me to allow people to knowingly enter an incestuous affair.

I agree with others, this is like the whole alcohol debate, it some more harm and good for one's body and it creates inordinate conducts that disrupt the society.

So by your standard, we should eliminate alcohol, yet history shown that Prohibition Act only made matter worse and created more chaos.

Same can apply to the U.S. using Atomic Bomb in WWII. By your logic, the action is 100% considering that it ends the war and prevents further casualties as well as restoring orders back in many societies.

The reality is that morality is sub an subjective matter. One person's immoral act can be another person's justice and freedom or even part of his or her culture.

In the end it's all governed and interpreted by the laws his/her society is build upon.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

It's hard to imagine how a mutually consensual sibling-sibling, parent-child relationships could even arise in the first place, given the well-documented Westermarck effect. If you've lived all your life with a brother or sister, chances are far greater you'd be mutually irritated by all your individual quirks and bad habits than to actually "fall in love".

Yet at same time there are such things as Odepius Complex and Electra Complex and other theories and studies that shows otherwise. Besides all Westermarck Effect was suggesting is that is two or more people who has spend a long period out time living together since before age of six, they will "generally" not develop sexual relationship.

It never suggest it was blood related nor heredity response, in fact it claimed the exactly opposite and suggest genetic sexual attraction if blood related couple met after long separation there is increase possibility they develop sexual attraction. It also stress that 6-year old mark is extremely important in this observation.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

You are, in effect, asking if media of any kind can affect perceptions on incest, making it socially acceptable. And I think we all know where such questions would lead on AnimeSuki. I am personally of the belief that media does matter. It's naive to think that it doesn't, for why else would academics bother to publish papers, why would marketers bother to advertise?

But regardless of the degree of media influence, the ultimate choice of whether to commit incest still depends on individual. He or she can just as easily choose not to indulge as much as he or she can choose to do so.

The problem with your thinking is that you're holding something accountable for what 'could or might' happen and is that really the right way to look at things?

If watching or enjoying materials that was even real is immoral and wrong and impulsive then by extension imagining it must be of same thing.

If that's the case then I have a problem. I highly doubt there is anyone who has never commit something that was technically wrong, let along thinking about it. Everything must have took something from their work or school before, something even as simple as a pen. That's stealing, yeah it might be insignificant, but it still doesn't change the fact that it's technically stealing. Even if you never actually done that, I doubt you'll find many people who has never thought of doing a bad thing but decide against it. So can you really just group them together and say that they are just as immoral as those who actually does it?

[Tiresias]

I never understand how people can see sibling incest as even remotely romantic. My only guess is that none of them has any actual siblings, and their imaginations based on outside observation is so out of touch with the reality of what sibling relationship is actually like. Or maybe they can't comprehend that there are other types of love besides romance? That besides of Eros, there also Storge(family love), Phileo(friendship/camaraderie), and...okay I forgot the last one - but the point is not all loves must be romantic

[Irenicus]

^I have two siblings. I think my little sister is adorable <3 (lol). I would never ever imagine committing anything remotely close to incest on her (as mentioned, that's abuse; I think I trust my sanity enough that I'd kill myself before becoming remotely messed up enough for that). And I like incest in literature. Well, the star-crossed romance type, not the abuse type -- which happens to be most of the incest cases in reality.

Jail me?

People have this thing they call separation of reality and fiction you know. It isn't that hard to figure out that being appealed by forbidden romances doesn't translate to LOL I WUNT MY SISTER or becoming indifferent to abuse.

P.S. You can't write wincest without the win.

Pssht.

[Tiresias]

Well I have siblings of my own, and whenever I read/watch any gushy sibling incest stories I end up putting myself in their shoes...and must hold the urge to pluck my eyes out.

So...I guess I'm back at square one, since I still don't get it.

PS: Why would anyone write wincest (except for making samples like this question)? It's not even a word!

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Well I have siblings of my own, and whenever I read/watch any gushy sibling incest stories I end up putting myself in their shoes...and must hold the urge to pluck my eyes out.

So...I guess I'm back at square one, since I still don't get it.

PS: Why would anyone write wincest (except for making samples like this question)? It's not even a word!

Heh, its an internet slang term for "winning incest (the nice kind mostly found in fantasy)".

Yeah, 99% of siblings would rather pluck their eyes out than think of sex with each other. Most anime/manga get around that either by having the sibs be non-blood related (together by marriage and not infants together), or raised apart. In the relatively rare case of "father daughter" or other - there are usually all kinds of extenuating circumstances (not related by blood).

Koi Kaze is one interesting case study because it treats the subject somewhat realistically (along with the associated taboo and problems).

Yosuga no Sora is a fairly odd example... but it also involves very extenuating circumstances.

Stories tend to get told about UNUSUAL PEOPLE or those to whom unusual things happen.

I'm not even counting cousins because that's simply not sufficiently incest either medically or legally.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

The reality is that morality is a subjective matter. One person's immoral act can be another person's justice and freedom or even part of his or her culture.
In the end it's all governed and interpreted by the laws his/her society is build upon.

While moral judgment is ultimately subjective, the principles it is based upon is not necessarily so. And it is on these principles that most just ethical systems will find agreement rather than disagreement.

In any case, that is a separate issue not directly relevant to the topic at hand, so I will not dwell further on it and risk derailing the thread.

Originally Posted by Undertaker

Yet at same time there are such things as Odepius Complex and Electra Complex and other theories and studies that shows otherwise. Besides all Westermarck Effect was suggesting is that is two or more people who has spend a long period out time living together since before age of six, they will "generally" not develop sexual relationship.

That may be how it works in theory but, in practice, cases of abuse in sibling-sibling, parent-child incest outnumber cases of such family members being genuinely "in love". So, while exceptions can be always be made, from a practical, policymaking perspective, such incestuous relationships should be treated as harmful for reasons I have already stated. It would be up to such a couple to prove a consensual relationship (that did not arise from accidental incest). As far as I can recall, there has never been such a case in my country, while there have certainly been many tragic cases of fathers abusing daughters.

Originally Posted by Undertaker

The problem with your thinking is that you're holding something accountable for what 'could or might' happen and is that really the right way to look at things? If watching or enjoying materials that was even real is immoral and wrong and impulsive then by extension imagining it must be of same thing.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. What I said is that it is naive to believe that media does not influence public perception on issues like incest. That has nothing to do with what I think about the "moral value" of media content. The content itself is morally neutral, but the choices an individual makes after watching/reading such content are not.

Originally Posted by Undertaker

I highly doubt there is anyone who has never commit something that was technically wrong, let alone thinking about it. Everything must have took something from their work or school before, something even as simple as a pen.

Wrong is wrong, not matter how much one tries to rationalise one's action. The real question is whether the action was "wrong" in the first place. In your case about taking office supplies, the question should first be whether they are considered "common property". If they are, then it is not technically theft for an employee of the company to take them.

Likewise, it is not theft for a person in a community that regards all property as communal to take items from said community, even if such action might appear as theft to an outsider. The principle here is that of "ownership". If a community owns the property collectively, it would not be theft for a member of that community to take said property.

Again, this is a separate issue unrelated to the topic at hand, so I won't dwell further on it.