US Elections 2012 Part I: The Primaries/Caucus

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Vexx

In the GOP... there is no past, no history - they re-invent "reality" all the time

Unfortunately for them, there's the Internet.

They attempt to rewrite the internet too.

Originally Posted by james0246

That being said, if the Tea Party can get off their asses and realize they have been hoodwinked by special interests, then they could become the force needed to propel Ron Paul to power. Sadly, they'd probably waste their vote on shills like Bachmann or Perry (or Parry ).

Ron Paul's true base is not the actual tea party. The actual tea party is a combination of old school GOP manipulators and the Christian Republican right. The two factors which could tell if someone would ID with the tea party in the past 4-5 years are republican and believes in religion in politics. (Note: There are others who don't fit in the above, but those are the two largest groups and statistically, the highest predictive variables.)

[Kyuu]

About the Tea Party... look it up. Tea Party less popular than Muslims. Whatever "power" they had, it has waned. This is all due to the debt ceiling debate. It showed them for who they really are.

At this point, it is Rick Perry, whom I am afraid of.

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Not to raise taxes in the times of war? You mean selling war bonds is enough to fund those Tomahawk missiles and pay for the dead soldiers?

Nope.

EDIT: And now, watch this:

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by Vexx

In the GOP... there is no past, no history - they re-invent "reality" all the time

Unfortunately for them, there's the Internet.

And the democrats dont do the same thing?

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

And the democrats dont do the same thing?

The GOP has far greater control of the media streams. Within days of the Warren Buffett article to call on increased tax rates on the rich -- Fox News is littered with the two word sound bite: "Class Warfare". They're extremely fast with their messaging.

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by Kyuu

The GOP has far greater control of the media streams. Within days of the Warren Buffett article to call on increased tax rates on the rich -- Fox News is littered with the two word sound bite: "Class Warfare". They're extremely fast with their messaging.

Fox News vs CNN, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, New York Times, TIMES, Huffington Post, NPR, I can do this all day long pal. Even if I am stuck posting on my phone.

At 32 years old, you are far too old to have an excuse on such ignorant statements.

[Vexx]

Other than HuffPo... all your listings are "corporate media" (even NPR which gets barely any public funding any more). Characterizing them as "left" or "right" kind of misses the point --- they are *corporate* and not "main street".

Out of the pack.... basically choices for anyone who can think past more than two dots in a row has to look at Huntsman, Ron Paul, perhaps? The other choices are either lock-stock BigCorpUberAlles, TheocratCrazy, or some unholy amalgam of the two concepts.

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Other than HuffPo... all your listings are "corporate media" (even NPR which gets barely any public funding any more). Characterizing them as "left" or "right" kind of misses the point --- they are *corporate* and not "main street".

Out of the pack.... basically choices for anyone who can think past more than two dots in a row has to look at Huntsman, Ron Paul, perhaps? The other choices are either lock-stock BigCorpUberAlles, TheocratCrazy, or some unholy amalgam of the two concepts.

Oh but they are left leaning media organizations. Even americans who are polled that question admit it Vexx. More often then not, they completely ignore negative stories involving Democrats. Fast and Furious is one such story which is getting very little attention from them.

Vexx your tendencies to go single out the GOP while ignoring the Democratic Party when they are miss-behaving, or worse, involved in criminal behavior, is hypocrytical at best.

[DonQuigleone]

I wouldn't lump in NPR, I've listened to them, and I'd rate them as being a pretty good station, though admittedly I don't listen to their news content much.

Personally I use the BBC and Al-Jazeera as my primary ports of call, I find them the best news organisations at the moment. BBC Newsnight is very good, if you can get it. They report the fact, and leave guests to express opinions. Al Jazeera is great if you want a slightly different perspective on global affairs, and is actually the most internationalist channel I know (BBC understandeably focuses on the UK a bit).

@Justinstrife: generally all American News TV is awful (newspapers are generally fine), and Fox stands at the very top. I'd shift to non-american news channels.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

Fox News vs CNN, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, New York Times, TIMES, Huffington Post, NPR, I can do this all day long pal. Even if I am stuck posting on my phone.

At 32 years old, you are far too old to have an excuse on such ignorant statements.

This is the most hysterical thing I've heard all day

CNN, left leaning? God no, they might as well change their name to Fox-lite. They friggin hired Erick Erickson for god's sake. Even NBC barely qualifies, what with Scarborough, good ole Chris Matthews who always loved him some Palin and Bachmann, not to mention resident bigot Pat Buchanan. Even without them, the only person on that network who really has an actual liberal point of view is Maddow. But on the whole, most of them are just corporate shills.

And if you're seriously comparing the others to Fox in terms of how much influence and power they have, coupled with an extreme viewpoint, you are waaayyy off base.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

Fox News vs CNN, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, New York Times, TIMES, Huffington Post, NPR, I can do this all day long pal. Even if I am stuck posting on my phone.

At 32 years old, you are far too old to have an excuse on such ignorant statements.

Just as a reminder (to all posters), this is not the thread to discuss the bias of the American news media.

That being said, just to add a few facts, News Corp (which owns Fox News) is the world's largest news conglomerate and the world's second-largest media conglomerate (behind Disney). So, News Corp and Fox News easily trumps almost everything you just mentioned (Fox News doesn't compete against non-cable news programs). Added to that, on any given night the ratings for any individual hour of Fox News equals (or is greater than) all other cable news programs in that same hour combined (save for ESPN).

And this doesn't even cover the conservative am radio sphere (Rush alone gets anywhere from 15-20 million listeners per week, and Arbitron generally has at least 8 conservative commentators in their Top 10 every week (Ed Shultz is the only progressive commentator to regularly break the Top 10)...

Again, this is not the thread to discuss the media, but I felt it was prudent to establish some actual facts concerning the state of the media, and not actually discuss the inherent bias of all America's news media.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

Oh but they are left leaning media organizations. Even americans who are polled that question admit it Vexx. More often then not, they completely ignore negative stories involving Democrats. Fast and Furious is one such story which is getting very little attention from them.

As others are saying American media in general has corroded... hardly any real investigative journalism left as they've all gone to the "Inside Edition Exxxtra" mode of shallow crap news with almost no analysis. They bend over backwards for any administration because they want to stay "cozy in the White House Press Corps" or whatever.

Vexx your tendencies to go single out the GOP while ignoring the Democratic Party when they are miss-behaving, or worse, involved in criminal behavior, is hypocrytical at best.

You were probably out of the room while I was setting the Dems on fire during the late 80s and early 90s (during the House scandals and stupid derails on gun control) ... the current rabid dog in the room is the GOP.

I grew up with a Eisenhower/TeddyRoosevelt style of GOP... one that supported Main Street over Wall Street. one that didn't spin the dial on zealot religious distractions. This is the "GOP" in name only as far as I'm concerned with fringe idiots overrunning the tent.

[justinstrife]

The Democratic Party has plenty of things for you to set fire to in the past decade Vexx. This forum disnt exist during the 80's and most of the 90's so your defense is a bit shallow for this particular forum.

Alas, I just do not have the free time to debate everyone on this forum with my schedule, especially now that 90% off my time online is from my phone. I wish I did, as you guys are giving me enough work to qualify as a 3rd job. The most I can participate, is an hour or two worth of posting a week, so pardon me for my long absences, and my inability to respond to everyone properly. You deserve more than a single paragraph or no reaponse at all.

This sub section might as well be called democraticunderground-lite for the heavy slant. At least unlike there, you guys dont ban members for opposing political views.

[Kyuu]

For the record, I'm a Christian, who is politically aligned near the center-left.

When it comes to issues like abortion, gay marriage, and the like -- I'll side with the right. However, I can also come to realize that these issues can be settled amongst the churches themselves. Under the protection of the First Amendment, churches should be able to apply policies aligned with Biblical principle on their own without interference from the government.

When it comes to economic policy, I am very much against the GOP, as they're heavily corporate. Are there corporates among the Democratic Party? You betcha. The BS that's happening to this country right now - that's all due to the level of corporate power controlling the government (via lobbying, campaign funding, etc.). And this crap needs to stop.

Originally Posted by justinstrife

Fox News vs CNN, NBC, CBS, MSNBC

I do not even waste my time on those. A couple times last week, I did turn my TV on to CNN -- but no -- I cannot stomach CNN. For my news, I generally turn to Reuters, BBC, or even the Associated Press (in YouTube). American corporate news is garbage.

And I lash out at Fox News because it is so blantantly far-right, it is disgusting hearing them.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

The Democratic Party has plenty of things for you to set fire to in the past decade Vexx. This forum disnt exist during the 80's and most of the 90's so your defense is a bit shallow for this particular forum.

Alas, I just do not have the free time to debate everyone on this forum with my schedule, especially now that 90% off my time online is from my phone. I wish I did, as you guys are giving me enough work to qualify as a 3rd job. The most I can participate, is an hour or two worth of posting a week, so pardon me for my long absences, and my inability to respond to everyone properly. You deserve more than a single paragraph or no reaponse at all.

This sub section might as well be called democraticunderground-lite for the heavy slant. At least unlike there, you guys dont ban members for opposing political views.

I'm no doubt *angrier* at the GOP because I used to belong to them. They left me, not the other way, just like they left Bob Dole, Eisenhower, Mark Hatfield, Teddy Roosevelt, William F Buckley and many others in their spiral off the "sanity" charts. The GOP couldn't give a flying pig's rump for any business in the US other than their transnational buddies. They don't care about Main street - they are totally owned by the same corporations pushing the Dem buttons lately and a small billionaire's group. The social conservatives who follow them seem to be idiots who desire theocratic rule ... but they're easily manipulated by single interest issue hot buttons by the plutocrats.

Oregon, in particular, is heavy with small business - most of the jobs come from small business. Oregon small businesses would *love* to have a single payer plan that the general population funds because it gets the problem out of their hair. But wait, the GOP signed up with Aetna et al and purchased enough Dems to hwork up the bill so badly its a joke to call it Obamacare, more like Aetna/Humana/etc-care. At least I was able to get health insurance for my two sons up to 26 (who can't afford health insurance as individuals, one is a student and one is sole-proprietor like I am, we all get the crappy insurance we've got through wife's company and it has a $5000 deductible with no preventative waiver, no other choice).

And, in addition to being wrong on math and wrong on economics these days, the GOP is fielding some of the most pathetic candidates I can ever remember seeing from either party. Its rapidly looking like the 2 or 3 candidates who can do math are on the short tracks.

In my opinion, the GOP needs about a 20 year time out to cast out its demons and re-invent itself. I'd love a third party but the game is rigged for two.
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EDIT: after working a bit and reflecting... if justin is referring to *California's* state Dem crowd, I'm somewhat on board with him for that. THEY have been a major clusterfsck when it comes to state politics, state economics, and state policy. Governor Arnie, as a liberal Republican, seemed to be actually trying to fix the budget with a "some pain all around" sensibility but the establishment Dem caucus and their union lobbies were having none of it. The more Arnold bent, the less they wanted to play. Kind of a mirror version of Obama and the GOP federal congress.. both cases of intransigence and don't-let-them-have-any-credit-at-any-cost breaking the country/state.

[DonQuigleone]

Aye, whatever happened to the republicans that complained about the insidious military-industrial complex.

However, 2nd parties have dissappeared from American politics before, remember the Whigs?

However usually it takes an another party to give the killing blow, I haven't seen one pop up yet. It won't happen this election cycle at least.

I think the best tactic for the Dems at the moment is to concentrate less on the presidency, and more on nailing the republican congressmen that are very unpopular at the moment.

And when even the Dems screw up over the next term (and let's face it, they probably will), then we might see people finally try and make a 3rd party alternative.

Perhaps Ross Perot ran 20 years too early.

I can't say whether the next 3rd party will come from the right or from the left, unfortunately there's no really inflamatory issue like slavery to unite anyone together.

EDIT: And for those of you still in despair, Jessie Ventura did win as a 3rd party candidate in Minnesota for governor, with a paltry ($300,000) campaign budget. The right candidate at the right time...

[Vexx]

The difficulty NOW with a third party coming up is that over the last 50 years the two dodgy parties (Dem and Gop) have "gamed the system" to make it extraordinarily difficult for a new party to arise. It ranges from cutting them out of debates to various moves to keep them off ballots at the local level.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Vexx

The difficulty NOW with a third party coming up is that over the last 50 years the two dodgy parties (Dem and Gop) have "gamed the system" to make it extraordinarily difficult for a new party to arise. It ranges from cutting them out of debates to various moves to keep them off ballots at the local level.

Of course, but as I already said, Jessie Ventura did do it.

We just need the right candidates, with the right platform at the right time.

I think we're close to the right time, and I'm pretty sure someone out of the 300 million people who live in the USA will come up with the platform, which can get the candidates to go with it.

The national mood in the US has never been so eager for a 3rd party alternative.

EDIT: Speaking of the media, Ron Paul had interesting things to say about Beck and O'Reilly

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by Vexx

The difficulty NOW with a third party coming up is that over the last 50 years the two dodgy parties (Dem and Gop) have "gamed the system" to make it extraordinarily difficult for a new party to arise. It ranges from cutting them out of debates to various moves to keep them off ballots at the local level.

One strategy is to gather and garnish the dissent eminating from the two parties. The Republicans somewhat split in two, with the Tea Party branching off (sorta). The same thing can happen to the Democrats. Pity to the Tea Party, they've become less popular than atheists and Muslims. So, there goes that movement.

Point of the matter. It's possible.

Originally Posted by DonQ

The national mood in the US has never been so eager for a 3rd party alternative.

Yep. The seeds are sown.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

Even NBC barely qualifies, what with Scarborough, good ole Chris Matthews who always loved him some Palin and Bachmann, not to mention resident bigot Pat Buchanan. Even without them, the only person on that network who really has an actual liberal point of view is Maddow. But on the whole, most of them are just corporate shills.

You are combining MSNBC and NBC which are two completely different networks in composition.

Originally Posted by justinstrife

This sub section might as well be called democraticunderground-lite for the heavy slant. At least unlike there, you guys dont ban members for opposing political views.

Yea, no. DU makes this place looks centrist-right when it's more centrist-left.

[SaintessHeart]

Of the Tea Party, by the Tea Party, for the Tea Party

Because while the campaign that brought them to power channeled the frustrations of some economically distressed voters, the Tea Party freshmen class comprises mostly millionaires, with a dozen or so reported to own assets valued into eight figure territory in financial disclosure forms:

-Richard Hanna of upstate New York’s 24th district is worth between $11 million and $33 million amassed in the construction business.

-Norfolk Marine-turned-Volvo dealer-turned-restaurateur-turned-congre ssman Scott Rigell of Virginia reports a fortune worth between $11.6 million and $48.2 million.

-Nursing home operator and serial entrepreneur Rep. Jim Renacci of Columbus, Ohio has assets worth between $17.6 million and $39.9 million.

-Nan Hayworth of New York and Diane Black of Tennessee are both former medical professionals whose husbands got rich in the health care business;

-Scott Hayworth (HHNW: $9.5 – $23.3 million) runs the dominant medical group in upper Westchester County and Black’s (HHNW: $14.7 – 84.1 million) runs the country’s preeminent drug testing lab.

-North Dakota’s Rich Berg is a commercial real estate tycoon ($19.3 – $59 million) who served in the state legislature since 1985 before being elected to Congress.

-Two oilmen in the freshmen class are also filthy rich: New Mexico’s Stevan Pearce ($8.4 – $38 million) and the Lone Star State’s Blake Farenthold ($10.4 – $31.4 million).

Read the rest yourselves. I think Kyuu has a point there.