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Old 2011-03-20, 23:20   Link #1141
Justin_Brett
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It's the whole reason the Bureau's even fighting them at all, and it will also potentially affect the protagonist. That's a pretty big deal.

Hivemind!

And I dunno if that automatically makes them Anti-Villains. Lots of villains arguably want to safeguard stuff, but they're not things that should always stay around.
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Old 2011-03-20, 23:26   Link #1142
00-Raiser
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And yet in other cases, such as when Guts slaughters a ton of people, the killer is touted as being an ultra cool bad ass.

People are pretty inconsistant when it comes to decrying people for taking the life of another.

Frankly, it'll take more than killing people to push some one over the moral event horizon for me. Especially when I know the circumstances behind it.

Besides, it's not like they're eating kittens.
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Old 2011-03-20, 23:27   Link #1143
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As I understand it, Berserk is pretty much fantasy Warhammer 40k without being called Warhammer, so that doesn't surprise me much. At least they were fighting back, for how much good it does.
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Old 2011-03-21, 01:16   Link #1144
Fluegel
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Karma's a load of BS in the first place.

Smug and irritability are purely subjective. You could even look at Nanoha saying "I won't listen to you and save you" to Thoma as being extremely smug.
This. I like Nanoha and all, but ever since StikerS she's pretty much had this type of smug attitude that her views on the world and actions, etc are all justified. At least that's what it felt like all those years ago.

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The ultimate troll sign? Then again, it's not like Hazama from BB needed musical notes to get people to hate him.
People hated Hazama? He was the greatest character in the franchise. DAT Seiyuu, dat cat bath, and DAT Smooth Criminal.


On the sides, eh, I'm probably Neutral. (because both entertain me equally as much)

We know the TSAB isn't exactly squeaky clean organization. With the Jail thing, Zest, Megane/Lutecia,etc. (Also Nanoha cheats at Uno. How can you trust an organization with their ace doing that?)
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Old 2011-03-21, 01:32   Link #1145
Justin_Brett
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Justified? You say that like her views are all automatically incorrect. I know you guys like to look for flaws in the heroes now, but I don't even know what you're getting at there.

Does Nanoha even have views beyond training? I'm confused.
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Old 2011-03-21, 01:33   Link #1146
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Uno? What did she do to her?
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Old 2011-03-21, 01:46   Link #1147
Koveras Alvane
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Karen also just made the list of people who need a punch in the face like, right now. And it's going to take even longer than Cypha's, in all likelihood.
She is cute and cheerful, though, and that tends to be an argument in favor of lesser punishment in Nanohaverse... Whatever Curren did, I still personally want to see Cypha get what's coming to her first.

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This. I like Nanoha and all, but ever since StikerS she's pretty much had this type of smug attitude that her views on the world and actions, etc are all justified. At least that's what it felt like all those years ago.
Omniscient Morality License a la Lacus and Kira? Jesus Takamachi?
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Old 2011-03-21, 01:48   Link #1148
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Tsuzuki is trying to make the Huckebein into a family of mass murder woobies. So far their reasons are understandable, but still hard to buy it because of their high amoral actions. the Wolkenritter killed in the past, but they actively trying to stopo doing that and are willing to surrender once their objetive is accomplished. The younger numbers were little kids unkowing of their situation, and the older ones didn't get a full befriending(plausible because they're very councsicious of their criminal actions).

The Huckebein are similar yet different because of their attitude of "screw the world, we're invincible". Protect their family is a very valid reason but they haven't showed any symphaty points beyond that. As much of a Badass Curren is, her attitude is a pain in the butt, i thinked of her as a pretty cool character until the moment i was able to finally read what she says(so yeah, she commits one of the same mistakes as Cypha). The Wolkenritter are proud of their fighting skills but never were bitches about it. Only few Numbers were really smuggy about their actions and mostly all of them receive a very hard punishment for their dickery.

Tsuzuki appears to be pretty inconsistent about the Hucks, some time they show they family dinamics or is implied they have more uhm "noble" reasons behind their act but at the next page they act like a bunch of total assholes again xDU. They're very confusing, hope their characters get more stablishment in future chapters, but for now it's a relief they retreated i'm tired of seeing those guys faces, it's time for some Tohma plot developement xD.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
Uno? What did she do to her?
Same here. Did Nanoha ever confronts Uno?
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Old 2011-03-21, 01:57   Link #1149
Justin_Brett
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Curren pretty much exactly mirrored what Cypha did, really, just in one chapter: thrash a character soundly, then act like a jerk about it. The characters they did it to were even part of the same family. I kind of assumed she'd be less cocky than Fortis, but I guess the only Worthy Opponent here is Deville.
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Old 2011-03-21, 02:03   Link #1150
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I think he meant Uno the game, not Uno the character.
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Old 2011-03-21, 02:06   Link #1151
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Curren pretty much exactly mirrored what Cypha did, really, just in one chapter: thrash a character soundly, then act like a jerk about it.
Actually she surpasses Cypha as Curren take down Hayate and becomes a dick about that, then trash Erio and Vita and jersks some more before finally retreating xD. to be fair, tough, it's still pretty badass that she was able to do that without Haxing over them.

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I think he meant Uno the game, not Uno the character.
Nanoha cheated in Uno? When that happens? I'm really curious about that xD.
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Old 2011-03-21, 02:24   Link #1152
Keroko
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In my opinion, this whole moral ambiguity is actually Tsuzuki's goal. It's a staple of Nanohaverse to create villains who's actions can infer some form of support. The fact that we're even having this debate shows that Tsuzuki is quite successful in this regard.

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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Disabling an opponent in 1 hit instead of 20 eliminates 19 unnecessary bits of fighting.
The problem with the word 'disabling' is that it can still be taken in a positive context. Trying to separate someone's head from their torso goes beyond merely disabling.

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Well, it's not like she has any particular reason to care about the heroes, so why are you expecting her to treat them with any sort of positive regard?
I blame the Wolkenritter comparison. Once we start making it, people started to compare everything the Hucks do to the Wolkies.

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Try putting the shoe on the other foot. Imagine the Huckebein family were the protagonists of this manga, and the big bad Bureau comes and attacks them in an attempt to capture them. I bet a lot more people would be supportive of them then.
And just as spiteful towards the Bureau.

They're bad guys. Generally bad guys are designed to be dislikable.

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Honestly I think people get too hung up on the "They kill people" thing, especially when they've gone so far to show that they try not to kill when they can avoid it.

Well, their fundamental motivation is to protect their family. You have to admit there's nothing inherently wrong about that.
Nuns, Signum and Isis don't really show that 'try not to kill when they can avoid it.'

Try not to fight, maybe. But trying to avoid needless fighting is a whole different thing. A criminal cartel will try to reduce fighting with the cops anyway they can, doesn't stop them being a criminal cartel.

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And yet in other cases, such as when Guts slaughters a ton of people, the killer is touted as being an ultra cool bad ass.

People are pretty inconsistant when it comes to decrying people for taking the life of another.

Frankly, it'll take more than killing people to push some one over the moral event horizon for me. Especially when I know the circumstances behind it.

Besides, it's not like they're eating kittens.
No, they eat nuns instead. More meat on their bones.

The morality of killing depends on the setting. In a war movie, killing is expected and so nobody frowns upon it. In a detective movie, killing is wrong and thus frowned upon.

Nanoha's moral line falls into the second category. While not a detective series per se, it has always touted killing as wrong, which pushes the Hucks into the 'bad guy' territory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Tsuzuki appears to be pretty inconsistent about the Hucks, some time they show they family dinamics or is implied they have more uhm "noble" reasons behind their act but at the next page they act like a bunch of total assholes again xDU. They're very confusing, hope their characters get more stablishment in future chapters, but for now it's a relief they retreated i'm tired of seeing those guys faces, it's time for some Tohma plot developement xD.
Hmm? While I agree there is moral ambiguity because of the Eclipse virus, I don't recall them ever having some noble intention beyond 'we provide a save haven for anyone infected with Eclipse.'
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Old 2011-03-21, 02:29   Link #1153
Justin_Brett
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I'm starting to think he couldn't decide whether he wanted actual villains this time, or more antivillains, so he decided to do both at once. It would explain these inconsistencies.
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Old 2011-03-21, 02:35   Link #1154
Laith
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,,,Why are they called inconsistencies? the Nanoha universe has always being grey and not black and white.

The hucks care about each other and screw everyone else, is just that they are "darker" than the wolkies.
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Old 2011-03-21, 02:38   Link #1155
Justin_Brett
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With other villains, though, it never flip-flopped from 'oh, look how horrible they are!' to 'oh, they're not so bad after all' this obviously or abrupt. You get Cypha being evil and monstrous in chapter 7, and then Arnage mocking Isis' breasts in 8.

Maybe it's because of the dark atmosphere. This story would probably be fine with StrikerS' tone, but I guess they decided it needed blood and body horror.
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Old 2011-03-21, 02:45   Link #1156
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Eeeh that just makes them more human for me, but so says the guy that has Curren for avatar so...

Also, the datk atmosphere had always been there, it was just hidden between all the ship teasing, moe stuff and such. See Zest and Lutecia plot on StrikerS.
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Old 2011-03-21, 02:59   Link #1157
Justin_Brett
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That worked well, though.

Really, it's just the Huckebeins who are cartoonishly evil (Cypha, Veyron) that make them not work for me. Even after a difficult life, who acts like that, seriously? Jail and Quattro had some reasoning for it, at least.
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Old 2011-03-21, 03:01   Link #1158
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
With other villains, though, it never flip-flopped from 'oh, look how horrible they are!' to 'oh, they're not so bad after all' this obviously or abrupt. You get Cypha being evil and monstrous in chapter 7, and then Arnage mocking Isis' breasts in 8.
Enter moral ambiguity. Every other Nanoha villain when they changed went from 'oh, look how horrible they are' to 'oh, they're not so bad after all' and stayed there. The Hucks keep swinging back and forth, which makes it hard to classify them.

Frustrating, but well done in my opinion.
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Old 2011-03-21, 03:02   Link #1159
Arcc
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I think he meant Uno the game, not Uno the character.
I'm going to say she cheated at Uno the game, against Uno the character, while cheating on whoever you're shipping her with, with Uno.
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Old 2011-03-21, 03:04   Link #1160
Keroko
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That worked well, though.

Really, it's just the Huckebeins who are cartoonishly evil (Cypha, Veyron) that make them not work for me. Even after a difficult life, who acts like that, seriously? Jail and Quattro had some reasoning for it, at least.
*points to the history books* Quite a few people.
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