Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Witacume]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Lancelot is Greek now?

yes you didn't know XD?
give the guy a break.
Damocles is greek.
Odysseus is greek as well.
While lancealot is not greek XD.

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Always? There are some specific differences in regards to that, on another example there's nothing to even say his overarching flashback wasn't also possibly seen by her on the matter. And Nunnally holding Romeyers hand and having to ask her to repeat the phrase at all is typical of an ability that can be developed by blind people. And how is that an explanation exactly? She purposefully held his hand, she also purposefully held his hand even after he was dead, certainly not gleaming anything then I would imagine... And is not, the possibility certainly exists and would not run parallel to a past example like with Romeyer and since Geass/Codes cannot be explained away or contradicted given how little we know about them versus Nunnaly's ability as simply being a lie detector I feel once again, that your example becomes far more pathetic in comparison.

No. Blind people do not gain lie detector powers. I've explained on multiple occasions why Nunnally's ability makes no sense without magical powers, though I'm willing to chalk it up to bad writing and reading one too many Daredevil comics. And no, all instances of Code memory transfer from an immortal have been as I described. Lelouch's being different means it's not that. But I've already been through all this and more before in this same thread. I'll settle for just letting you believe what you want. That said, the psychic powers are objectively more supported by what's in the show than Lelouch having a Code, since the former actually has... you know... on-screen evidence to support it rather than refute it.

Of course, I think both are ridiculous and maintain that Nunnally didn't actually see any of those images herself.

[Endrance]

it makes sense because changes in ones pulse can signify whether someone is lying or not thats basically how a lie detector works

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by Droplet

C.C. was crying for two things:

1. She was crying tears of joy because Lelouch was going to be with her...forever.

Living forever eternally young with someone you love is paradise (this is assuming Lelouch survived the sword by being immortal from Charles' code). Compared to living alone for centuries which is a living hell.

Lelouch becoming immortal from the code and living happily ever after with C.C is the kind of OVA I'm hoping for.

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

No. Blind people do not gain lie detector powers. I've explained on multiple occasions why Nunnally's ability makes no sense without magical powers, though I'm willing to chalk it up to bad writing and reading one too many Daredevil comics. And no, all instances of Code memory transfer from an immortal have been as I described. Lelouch's being different means it's not that. But I've already been through all this and more before in this same thread. I'll settle for just letting you believe what you want. That said, the psychic powers are objectively more supported by what's in the show than Lelouch having a Code, since the former actually has... you know... on-screen evidence to support it rather than refute it.

Of course, I think both are ridiculous and maintain that Nunnally didn't actually see any of those images herself.

Well there you go, Daredevil comics FTW

Memory transfers in general have only one real precedent, and this was slightly different in terms of everything, all those other times it was simply forced, which could be a reason. Regardless, as you say, the whole scene was far too peculiar in my view at least, and as such I will do as you say and agree to disagree. And actual on-screen evidence I feel supports the possibility of Lelouch having a Code morose then nunnally having psychic powers which I feel were also contradictory to what her abilities actually displayed on-screen. Anyway, that's me and that's you and we'll leave it at that... hopefully

[kramerica]

Yeah when I first saw it I thought it was Lelouch having his whole life flash before his eyes. It could be just that, and he's dead, and that's that.

Personally I want him to be the cart driver, but all the evidence just points to a theory, not fact, so you don't have to all get up in arms about it. I would like to believe that the show is called Code Geass R2 due to someone achieving both Code and Geass, and R2 = Lelouch (RURUSHU RAMRARUSHU lulz, or R2 does not have to be initials anyway). Still, a lot could have happened in that time skip. Personally, to go with the live theory, Lelouch only told C.C. about having the code, and C.C. crying at the idea of another that will suffer eternal life as punishment. Maybe Suzaku knew about it, maybe not.

I'm hoping for an OVA or movie, if not just for more CG

[Droplet]

Originally Posted by kramerica

Yeah when I first saw it I thought it was Lelouch having his whole life flash before his eyes. It could be just that, and he's dead, and that's that.

Personally I want him to be the cart driver, but all the evidence just points to a theory, not fact, so you don't have to all get up in arms about it. I would like to believe that the show is called Code Geass R2 due to someone achieving both Code and Geass, and R2 = Lelouch (RURUSHU RAMRARUSHU lulz, or R2 does not have to be initials anyway). Still, a lot could have happened in that time skip. Personally, to go with the live theory, Lelouch only told C.C. about having the code, and C.C. crying at the idea of another that will suffer eternal life as punishment. Maybe Suzaku knew about it, maybe not.

I'm hoping for an OVA or movie, if not just for more CG

Now I think the question raised is "What does R2 mean in the title anyway?"

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Droplet

To be fair, here's a brief summary of "counterpoints" to the "Lelouch is Alive" argument for those who believe that he is dead:

1. Nunally, unknown to most of us, is actually telepathic when she touches someone's hand. This is an inborn gift for her. Hence, she was able to see Lelouch's flashback.

2. C.C. wasn't talking to Lelouche because this wasn't the first time we've seen C.C. talk to herself (cart scene).

3. While Orange was deeply loyal to Lelouch, it didn't matter to him that Lelouch was going to die in Zero Re:quiem because Lelouch would surely convince him despite any possible resistance. Hence, Orange would just be happy by the thought that everything worked out as Lelouch has planned.

4. When Marianne and Charles "died" (presumably) in the world of C, Anya still hadn't recovered her sealed memories until Orange degeassed her. In turn, this means that if Lelouch died, then it doesn't follow that Schneizel's geass would be broken also.

1. She was never shown to be telepathic, all she seemed to do was tell if someone is lying by touching their hand when they answer her question. It's basically a human lie detector. By feeling the person's hand, and their pulse she could tell if what they were telling her was a lie or not. She's never shown to be able to see flash backs until the final scene. The only two instances where she uses this little trick is with Miss Romayer where she repeats the question after getting a hold of her hand, and then with Suzaku which is unsuccessful anyways. There's no proof to substantiate that she can do what she did with her brother before that point.

2. Except she's never been shown to talk to herself, all along when she's seemingly talking to herself she's actually talking to someone else. So she's either talking to Lelouch in C's World or he right there with her.

3. Nothing to argue here, this point doesn't prove he's not alive.

4. Again, how does this prove he's dead? It doesn't.

[zalem]

Originally Posted by Jarmel

It's called Continued Story by Hitomi

Here is a blog about it
http://aizen.usakochan.net/code-geas...ed-story-song/

Epic song on so many levels.

He's not referring to Continued Story, but the music piece that plays before it with the piano. That piece isn't on any OST, unfortunately. Hopefully there will be another OST.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Okay look, I agree that Gundam Seed Destiny and a lot of their shows following it were pretty poor and they deserve a bit of flack for it. The "stigma" however has to be allowed to get washed away at some point and the studio given a clean state though if one wants to have any reasonable chance at enjoying it's work, and dwelling on the past is not a good gateway to watching a show. I think they've put in a good recovery effort over the last couple of years with a greater degree of solid shows and succeeded in washing away the ghost of Gundam Seed Destiny. For that reason I'm ready to let it go, other people....I don't know. It makes me wonder sometimes. Like what are we going to do, let one bad run control our views of the studio for the next century or something. It has to be let go at some point. Same goes with Gonzo and Dragonaut by the way if they do anything to prove their competance again.

I don’t think there’s that large a group just bashing Sunrise for the sake of bashing Sunrise, and as I’ve told you many of my favorite shows come from Sunrise//Bandai….For some reason though Sunrise tends to have these uber-populous type of series which brings in more fans and with more eyes comes more scrutiny…I guess it’s gonna take a series that doesn’t seem rushed or have internet leaks of production problems to totally end the squall of comments…It’s not my job to mitigate fan-reaction verses the current trends for a production studio, but at the same time I’m not gonna ignore what I have also seen just because some pseudo-forum-trolls seems to be outspoken about it…Code Geass R2 seems as if it was rushed (That’s my educated opinion)…I think a very tangible case can be made for this…Additionally I think the translation of the directors’ feelings coincide with some of the problems I saw aswell (Basically the translation appears to have a logical sense about it)…Rightly or Wrongly when something like that leaks, people are gonna clump it in with some of the more talked-about Sunrise production issues in recent years…

[KrimzonStriker]

Despite mishaps and problems though wing, I won't let that suddenly rule out that overall, the series was a very entertaining and solid one in my book, most of its lapses were forgivable in the end and the overall content I felt was very strong and nicely played

[Droplet]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

1. She was never shown to be telepathic, all she seemed to do was tell if someone is lying by touching their hand when they answer her question. It's basically a human lie detector. By feeling the person's hand, and their pulse she could tell if what they were telling her was a lie or not. She's never shown to be able to see flash backs until the final scene. The only two instances where she uses this little trick is with Miss Romayer where she repeats the question after getting a hold of her hand, and then with Suzaku which is unsuccessful anyways. There's no proof to substantiate that she can do what she did with her brother before that point.

2. Except she's never been shown to talk to herself, all along when she's seemingly talking to herself she's actually talking to someone else. So she's either talking to Lelouch in C's World or he right there with her.

3. Nothing to argue here, this point doesn't prove he's not alive.

4. Again, how does this prove he's dead? It doesn't.

We agree on all points. I'm just curious though: do you think he's alive or are you content with the ending's ambiguity and would like to leave it that way? ^^

[Trax]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

1. She was never shown to be telepathic, all she seemed to do was tell if someone is lying by touching their hand when they answer her question. It's basically a human lie detector. By feeling the person's hand, and their pulse she could tell if what they were telling her was a lie or not. She's never shown to be able to see flash backs until the final scene. The only two instances where she uses this little trick is with Miss Romayer where she repeats the question after getting a hold of her hand, and then with Suzaku which is unsuccessful anyways. There's no proof to substantiate that she can do what she did with her brother before that point.

2. Except she's never been shown to talk to herself, all along when she's seemingly talking to herself she's actually talking to someone else. So she's either talking to Lelouch in C's World or he right there with her.

3. Nothing to argue here, this point doesn't prove he's not alive.

4. Again, how does this prove he's dead? It doesn't.

I think you misunderstand the post you quoted. It wasn't meant to prove that he's dead, it was meant to show that certain arguments for him being alive are basically no good.

In case of #2: Even if CC has never been shown to talk to herself before (imo she has though, earlier in the same episode), that doesn't mean she's not doing so in this case.

[killbethy]

The fact that an ending couldn't have been written in which Lelouch is clearly dead or alive is an insult to viewers and poor craftsmanship for a story. If Lelouch had to die, the story should have unfolded in a way in which you had to accept that ending, no matter how much you liked the character... same thing for if he had to live. The "mystery" behind his death just shows how willing they were to sacrifice the story to not unplease their fans during their rush to end the show.

The whole story unfolded at a nice, steady pace through the first season, but somewhere in the second, it started dragging... then at the end it sprinted to a finish with the only thing going for it being the art direction and voice actors ability to bring to life one sad scene. But it in no way justified the whole plot.


For one thing, when did Lelouch become the guy who wanted to save the world for others? That was always his fake pretense for fighting... even after Rolo and Nunnally's "deaths" Lelouch isn't interested in bringing about a better world, he just wants revenge. He always just wanted revenge. And that's where the ending spoils itself. Would Lelouch die for world peace? No. He would die to make himself a legend though... but they try to force it on you that somewhere during the blanks, Lelouch became a respectable person.

[Xevious451]

You know it just kinda struck me... But I'm lol-ing that I seemed to have drawn some sort of similarity between the Zero Requiem and Ghost Face from the first Scream...

Suzaku: "Stick with the plan! You ready?"
Lelouch: "Yeah, man! Let's do it!"
*stabbity*
Lelouch: "Hey man! Not so hard! I'm feelin' a bit woozy here! *fall*"

[Ruvixur]

Originally Posted by killbethy

The fact that an ending couldn't have been written in which Lelouch is clearly dead or alive is an insult to viewers and poor craftsmanship for a story. If Lelouch had to die, the story should have unfolded in a way in which you had to accept that ending, no matter how much you liked the character... same thing for if he had to live. The "mystery" behind his death just shows how willing they were to sacrifice the story to not unplease their fans during their rush to end the show.

The whole story unfolded at a nice, steady pace through the first season, but somewhere in the second, it started dragging... then at the end it sprinted to a finish with the only thing going for it being the art direction and voice actors ability to bring to life one sad scene. But it in no way justified the whole plot.


For one thing, when did Lelouch become the guy who wanted to save the world for others? That was always his fake pretense for fighting... even after Rolo and Nunnally's "deaths" Lelouch isn't interested in bringing about a better world, he just wants revenge. He always just wanted revenge. And that's where the ending spoils itself. Would Lelouch die for world peace? No. He would die to make himself a legend though... but they try to force it on you that somewhere during the blanks, Lelouch became a respectable person.

Lelouch always wanted to have revenge because he was robbed of better world. That's why he wanted to build better world. It was said even in S1.
For example, when he maniacally laughed in the end of episode 23, he said, that destroying and recreating the world is something he always wanted.

[Koshimizu]

Originally Posted by Droplet

Now I think the question raised is "What does R2 mean in the title anyway?"

It's answered by the director and /or producer in Newtype's & Animage's 2008 March issue:
The "R" in R2 = Rebellion, Return, Revenge, Reconstruction.
The "2" stands for season 2.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by killbethy

For one thing, when did Lelouch become the guy who wanted to save the world for others? That was always his fake pretense for fighting... even after Rolo and Nunnally's "deaths" Lelouch isn't interested in bringing about a better world, he just wants revenge. He always just wanted revenge. And that's where the ending spoils itself. Would Lelouch die for world peace? No. He would die to make himself a legend though... but they try to force it on you that somewhere during the blanks, Lelouch became a respectable person.

No, that may be what he told himself, but he's always wanted more than revenge. His voice was chosen as the voice of "a good guy pretending to be bad". He's always loved his friends, and his sister. Some part of him has always believed in protecting the weak. And when he lost everything, including his revenge - well, what else was he going to do?

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Despite mishaps and problems though wing, I won't let that suddenly rule out that overall, the series was a very entertaining and solid one in my book, most of its lapses were forgivable in the end and the overall content I felt was very strong and nicely played

I have no problem with that and that was never the argument here…My point is that you can’t act like people who bash Sunrise don’t have a legit reason to bash them sometimes (which honestly I don’t see too much of in any specificity anyways)...I too agree it was a very entertaining series and at certain points “must-watch” and exhilarating, but I just personally felt like it didn’t maximize its potential from S1…Furthermore I felt like the apex of the story was better with Charles, V.V., meaning of Code, meaning of Geass storyline…but to each their own…

[killbethy]

One thing I will always wonder is why they didn't go more into the background of Geass... since it was even rather cryptically described in Newtype as a mysterious power that has something to do with the creation of the world... as well as the "gods" that Charles wanted to kill. We also got all of those flashes of what looked like Jupiter and "children" with Geass sigils on their forehead like C.C. I still think this should have been explained more, even though it doesn't have much to do with Lelouch's story. There's so much about the Code Geass universe that they didn't wrap up... /sigh

If they ever decided to do more of Code Geass, it would be nice if they were able to conclude all of the loose ends in the world they created. They wrapped up Lelouch's story, but not the whole universe they created.