Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Koshimizu]

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

Well if there's supposed to be a death list, I don't see how its possible that they would say "interpret it yourselves." Unless that's some sort of temporary state :|
Unless of couse at the bottom of the list it says "LL - what do you think?"

Simple: just mark both Suzaku Kururugi and Lelouch vi Britannia as "dead". Since technically "Suzaku Kururugi" is dead but he actually isn't, that leaves the grey zone. XD

[Alchemist007]

That'd be a f***ing a$$ twist, though in that way the list is in perspective of the Geass Earth people's perception, not actuality. Heh, I just realized this place doesn't censor, I added my own since trouble = bad >.>

[shinigami99]

Originally Posted by Koshimizu

Simple: just mark both Suzaku Kururugi and Lelouch vi Britannia as "dead". Since technically "Suzaku Kururugi" is dead but he actually isn't, that leaves the grey zone. XD

Hey, i really want to know the reaction in japan about the whole lelouch alive or dead thing. It will be great if u can give us some light on that. THANK YOU.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by shinigami99

Hey, i really want to know the reaction in japan about the whole lelouch alive or dead thing. It will be great if u can give us some light on that. THANK YOU.

Before the release of the new magazines issues

Originally Posted by Koshimizu

Japanese fans has been arguing about this too. Tens of thousands of posts were made. Both sides has listed dozens of hints on whether he should be alive or dead. (Those things you listed above, and some more about the pink paper crane too.) The arguing got so annoying that it got kicked out of the spoiler thread, and started a thread of its own. That thread will soon reach 8,000 posts.

Don't thank/rep me, thank/rep Koshimizu

[Momosan]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

It wasn't an attempt to belittle you. It was actually some genuine advice. You do realize that it's arrogant to waltz into a 200+ page thread and assume what you're going to say hasn't been said already, don't you? Although I won't fault you for that, as that kind of self-centric behaviour is actually fairly common, I will fault you for responding to one of my posts without understanding the context, and this is twice now.

So because I didn't read all 200+ pages of a topic I can't add to the discussion? I'll keep in mind that offering your opinion means that you're self-centric.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Since when do you get to define the meaning of 'jackass'? 'Needlessly' has nothing to do with it, though you're wrong on that count too. Zero Requiem wasn't necessary, it was what Lelouch and Suzaku decided was right: Suzaku because he wanted Lelouch to atone for Euphie and Shirley, and turn his lies into reality; Lelouch because he'd lost everything he'd ever lived for, and because he wanted to be the one who destroyed and recreated the world.

You also completely missed the point that the whole reason I said that, was to contrast Lelouch's genuine assholeness at the end with the fake messiahness he was going to pull against Euphie back in Season 1. I was illustrating Lelouch's character development from someone who'd manipulate millions into thinking he was Jesus so they'd kill themselves for his own personal war, to someone who'd genuinely become a villain and make the world hate him so that he could bring them tomorrow.

I trust you understand now? Nonetheless, I'm still going to trash on you for failing basic reading comprehension: I never said Lelouch was sadistic to Nunally, nor that he Geassed her to fall down stairs. I said Lelouch felt no remorse for either (or refraining Schniezel's subordinates, or using his slave army as fodder for Fleia, or using Fleia in turn on the Black Knights) because he was willing to do whatever it took to make people hate him. And all because he personally wanted a world where the strong wouldn't force their will onto others, when a number of more stable political configurations could have been obtained with less bloodshed. I'll repeat, Lelouch didn't do any of that shit because it was necessary; he did it because he wanted to.

Once again, you're obviously going to ignore the many examples I've listed which describe how Lelouch is constantly tending to the needs of those around him. Like I said before, Lelouch will not sacrifice goals for methods. You want to ignore the reasons for the actions and instead focus on the actions themselves. That kind of narrow-minded view can't possibly grasp the entirety of Lelouch's character. Lelouch never intentionally harmed anyone unless they were obstructing his goals.

I don't understand how you can honestly think Lelouch was an asshole. So Lelouch makes the world hate him in order to unite them against a cause and sacrifices everything he's accomplished and his power over people in order to bring peace to the world. How is that being an asshole? Did you call your mother and asshole when she told you to brush your teeth every night? We might not like everything that happens in life, but sometimes those things are still for the best.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Shows how much you understand Shirley. 'Hide' her love? Hell no, Shirley always demonstrated remarkable initiative. You obviously have no idea about anything Shirley because she didn't PURPOSEFULLY MISS Lelouch, she PURPOSELY SHOT Viletta. And if you think choosing to contact Suzaku over Lelouch when he has been lying to her for the past year and, on top of that, is actually Zero is being indecisive, the I honestly question your capacity to make rational judgements at all.

lol @ Shirley discussion. Does anyone here find Shirley to be decisive when it came to her relationship with Lelouch? She shot Viletta out of necessity, not determination. After regaining her memories she was aware that Lelouch is Zero. She is aware that he indirectly killed her father and was regretful over that fact. She remembers shooting at him and he took no forceful action against her. Instead he did what he felt would be least painful and altered her memories using his Geass. Oh wait, I forgot, you think Lelouch is an asshole.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

'Kallen's decisions never falter'? lol. Just look at how desperate she is for direction after discovering that Lancelot's pilot was actually Suzaku. Saying she's loyal to Japan/Black Knights doesn't address any of my previous criticisms either, seeing as: 1)abandoning the critical battle for her country's freedom to retrieve a leader she admired utterly only to abandon him just as utterly upon learning his true identity; 2)holding said leader at gunpoint after struggling a year to retrieve him direactly as a result of her past abandonment, and then deciding not to shoot him; 3)then finally, saying she'd protect said leader from her allies with her own life, despite them acting in her country's best interest, only to abandon him again half a minute later upon hearing him say he only thought of her as a pawn; 4)each fall under the very definition of undecisiveness.

Kallen understood that The Black Knights were nothing without Zero. If Zero were to die do you think they could've mustered any kind of resistance against Britannia? Kallen had already been down that road only to be saved from death by Zero, along with every other Black Knight. Kallen remained true to Zero so long as Zero supported her agenda. When Zero showed signs of betrayal she didn't hesitate to retaliate. For all intensive purposes, Zero was TBK, and she WAS his personal bodyguard.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Your lack of comprehension for Shirley's character also demonstrates itself once again.

Finally, you completely missed the point of Lelouch lying to his loved ones, didn't you? It's to protect them. That is why Lelouch lied to Shirley, that is why Lelouch lied to Nunally, and yes, that is why Lelouch lied to Kallen, as Turn 19 clearly demonstrates.

No shit he lies to Shirley and Nunnally, when did I say he didn't? I said he never lied to Kallen. Your counterpoint is Episode 19. I already asked if you meant where he calls her a pawn then whispers to her to survive. If that's your single lie to Kallen then I guess I'll just have to throw my hands up and accept my resounding defeat.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

See Turn 15 and C.C.'s subsequent seclusion for precisely an example of C.C. not understanding Lelouch. And if you agree that Lelouch's motives were wrong so vehemently, what's so great about C.C. enforcing them?

As for her manipulation, seriously you're getting incoherent. You think knowledge about his mother's survival wasn't vital information to Lelouch, when he spent almost two seasons lusting for her vengeance? C.C. helping and supporting Lelouch's goals? Yeah, I guess letting him refrain himself up because "I only need him alive" in Turn 7 falls exactly into that category.

I didn't mean that his motives were wrong. I think everyone can admire his desire to create a peaceful world for his sister. I meant his methods. It was an apparent typo as could be seen in the following sentence. As for calling me incoherent, have you made a single argument without trying to attack my character yet? Anyways, How is telling Lelouch that his mother is a misguided geass user going to change his agenda? Lelouch hated his father for not protecting his mother. Lelouch didn't create TBK and challenge Britannia because he hated his father, he did it because his father was creating an eltitist world which would trample weak people like Nunnally. Therefore, how would divulging information on Marianne have affected his goals?

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Your failure to understand the plot astounds me. Charles took V.V.'s Code because "Brother, you've lied again". C.C. was with Charles and Marianne because they wanted to open the World of C (i.e. the past, i.e. C.C.'s memories); C.C. was initially cooperative, so no one wanted or needed to take her Code in the first place. Finally, your imaginary conceptions of C.C. making Charles suffer for being a jackass are completely pointless since by the time C.C. knew he could take Codes, he was already immortal anyway.

I never once said C.C. wanted to make Charles suffer. I said she didn't pass her code to Mao because she didn't want him to suffer more than he already had and she didn't pass it to Lelouch because their romance had already begun PRIOR to him being able to attain her code. Once he could obtain her code, she didn't want to curse him anyways. She felt no reserve when contemplating giving her code to Charles though which is why she hopped on the opportunity at the first chance.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Again, way to fail to follow the plot. Actually pay attention to V.V.'s dialogue, and you'll notice that V.V. refers to obtaining Code in the future tense and is speaking from the perspective of his flashback. You also neglected in any manner to contradict Marianne's explicit question "Why did you seal your Code", spoken precisely in your precious episode 20, which directly links C.C.'s lost memories with the inactive state of her Code.

As stated in my argument, everything referring to the world of C.C. and the limitations of Geass Code are pure conjecture. No point in arguing this any further since obviously we're confident in believing different things.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

References aren't to C.C. and Charles for Geassless Codes, they are to explicit dialogue which confirms that obtaining Code involves giving up/not having Geass. Your claim as to Geasses 'rebooting' upon Code transfer is also directly contradicted by Rolo.

Btw, you still haven't explained, if double Geass denotes Code bearing capacity, why C.C. didn't force her Code onto Charles ages ago and only realized that he could do it after he'd already taken V.V.'s.

How does Rolo disprove my arguments? How does C.C. know that Charles has fully developed Geass when she doesn't even come into contact with him? Charles didn't take V.V.'s code until it fit within the timeframe of his plan

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

And your example with Gino demonstrates this changed how? I'm sorry if I don't see getting out of an exploding Knightmare as INTENTIONALLY endangering his life. And no, you don't have to sift through 50 episodes to provide every example; it would be appreciated, however, if you could bother sifting through long enough to provide even one.

When Gino nearly destroys his KM frame he nonchalantly hops out and runs on ahead while Suzaku stays back to clean up. You asked, "If he's immortal why didn't he fake his death against Gino to catch Schniezel off guard" or something to that effect. The reason is he already had the entire match in checkmate, there was no reason to try and fake his own death when nothing was left to prevent him from Geassing his brother. Like I said before, I'm not going to sift through the episodes and list the times Lelouch fears for his life. It's self evident in many scenes.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Yeah? Why not make out like he's Jesus who can resurrect and grant miracles, and walk the earth preaching peace/tomorrow instead? Zero Requiem is a stupid plan if he's immortal; there's no need to make Nunally, Kallen, C.C., Kaguya, Tamaki, and Suzaku cry.

Note also Lelouch's needlessly elaborate plan with Schniezel, where if he knew he couldn't die he could have just walked straight into that escape pod, armed bodyguards and all. I already said this last time.

Why is it a stupid plan if he's immortal? Convince the world you're an asshole when you're actually looking out for their best interest. Unite everyone against you then feign your death. It was a simple solution to a complex problem which requires his death, which isn't a problem when he has Charles's code. I'm sure he considered averting world peace to stop the tears from a few close friends.

lol, yeah you're right. Why make a complex plan to allow Suzaku to control Schniezel's ambitions and talents when he could've just somehow pentrated an energy barrier then walked through the ship unharmed and smoked Schniezel, thereby wasting his talents, instead. Oh wait, how about when Lelouch gets shot he passes out? C.C. was immortal but they still were able to capture and imprison her. Lelouch's plan, while he must totally be an asshole, had less casualties and enabled a more productive future with an ambitiously misguided man able to tend to peacetime needs. (also referenced as a bonus by Cornelia) There is a big difference between immortality and invulnerability in Code Geass.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Yes, because clearly C.C can only be happy because she get's sex. It couldn't be because Lelouch caused her to regain her humanity.

No it can't be character development

When did I ever say C.C. wanted sex? I said Lelouch understood what was causing her depression, the inability to identify love, and therefore was connecting to her on an emotionally deep level. C.C. lived her life without being able to connect to the people around her such as Mao and therefore decided that death would be a better alternative than immortal suffering. Once C.C. discovered that Lelouch understood her situation she stopped charles from taking her code. Lelouch said he would make sure that she would smile, not that he'd shove his dick deep inside of her. Please don't put words into my mouth.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Witacume

damn it Sol falling.
I really think your on the ball on most points here but here is the kicker.
LElouch is the main character and people don't want to see his downfalls.
I agree that Lelouch was a jackass.
But i will take things further.
I am considering writing a long post about it.

Yeah, I can understand that most people don't want to see him dead. Not wanting to see the truth, though, is a horrible way to do things (from my perspective), especially when you're talking about art and narrative. The fact is, this was someone else's story, meant to be told and understood in a certain way. So although we as an audience are free to like or dislike it, it's disrespectful to change it for our own interests.

Anyway, when I read the Lelouch thread, I saw that you actually predicted Zero Requiem some time before it actually happened. If you intend to expand on how Lelouch was a jackass, I'll look forward to seeing what you've written.

[kazuki_yuki92]

lelouch died for sake zero requiem...

for tomorrow...i don't understand why C.C agree with his plan?!

or lelouch believe he is immortal...?

[Furple]

Dead to society and unable to be in the presence of any humans for fear that he might repeat the 'euphy' incident. Perhaps after he was 'reborn' (if he even was) he geass reached the level that the contacts don't work, so he's hanging out with CC! I'm just wondering about the code transfers... I mean, we never saw how quickly CC got the 'code' and it seemed to me like 'there must be 2 immortal beings', kind of like Adam and Eve. Perhaps the second Charles lost his immortality it was transfered to Lelouch.

I mean, the only transfers we saw are:
-Immortality given to C.C by force
-Attempt at taking a code from someone willing to give it (CC => Charles)

So I'm thinking it's possible that Lelouch did get the code somehow. Though I thought you were supposed to lose Geass after gaining immortality...

[Koshimizu]

Originally Posted by shinigami99

Hey, i really want to know the reaction in japan about the whole lelouch alive or dead thing. It will be great if u can give us some light on that. THANK YOU.

Before magazine release- what Narona posted.
After magazine release- Same. A thousand more posts on live/dead issue were made and reached one conclusion: believe what you want to believe. In all 3 magazines, although implied, the word dead or death isn't actually used. Same for Ōkouchi’s words. And Director Taniguchi says the ending is up to each's interpretations. BTW he said "ending" (結末), not "epilogue" (後日談).

The only "fact" in this issue is, enough hints were given to allow half of the fandom believe he's alive, and everyone avoided giving a definite answer.

Why do people expect anything from the mags? There's no point in make the ending vague if an answer is to be given in 2 weeks. I wonder if there'll be any definite answer until 1) Sunrise extends this series; or 2) in Taniguchi's autobiography years later "oh Code Geass? The anime I directed back in the good o' days? The ending I have in mind is actually..."

Originally Posted by kazuki_yuki92

lelouch died for sake zero requiem...
for tomorrow...i don't understand why C.C agree with his plan?!
or lelouch believe he is immortal...?

C.C., except for the incident in Stage 7, never opposes to anything he wants to do.

[lovecakecookies]

Originally Posted by Koshimizu

Before magazine release- what Narona posted.
After magazine release- Same. A thousand more posts on live/dead issue were made and reached one conclusion: believe what you want to believe. In all 3 magazines, although implied, the word dead or death isn't actually used. Same for Ōkouchi’s words. And Director Taniguchi says the ending is up to each's interpretations. BTW he said "ending" (結末), not "epilogue" (後日談).

The only "fact" in this issue is, enough hints were given to allow half of the fandom believe he's alive, and everyone avoided giving a definite answer.

Why do people expect anything from the mags? There's no point in make the ending vague if an answer is to be given in 2 weeks. I wonder if there'll be any definite answer until 1) Sunrise extends this series; or 2) in Taniguchi's autobiography years later "oh Code Geass? The anime I directed back in the good o' days? The ending I have in mind is actually..."

Ah.. this is interesting.. Thank you Koshimizu


I agree

Hopefully, Taniguchi will explain something after the last DVD release *hopes*
that is the safest time to explain anything..
but if they really decide to extended the series..

[Furple]

Originally Posted by lovecakecookies

Ah.. this is interesting.. Thank you Koshimizu


I agree

Hopefully, Taniguchi will explain something after the last DVD release *hopes*
that is the safest time to explain anything..
but if they really decide to extended the series..

Meh I'll be happy, if it's not as amazing as the first season, oh well. If you believe it should end at season 2, then don't watch the next one (if it comes out) it's so simple.

[lovecakecookies]

Originally Posted by Furple

Meh I'll be happy, if it's not as amazing as the first season, oh well. If you believe it should end at season 2, then don't watch the next one (if it comes out) it's so simple.

Wth? Where did I say that? please don't assume things and don't tell me what to do.... sigh...

[Furple]

Originally Posted by lovecakecookies

Wth? Where did I say that? please don't assume things and don't tell me what to do.... sigh...

Well I know that, I just see too many people complaining about it, when really they lose nothing from it.

[lovecakecookies]

Originally Posted by Furple

Well I know that, I just see too many people complaining about it, when really they lose nothing from it.

Oh, I see....
hmmmm ..this is true.. well I guess everyone should wait and see what happens..

[Torri_fay_torren@hot]

What depresses me most about the ending is only a few people and us know the true story of Lelouch. That it so upsetting.

[FoxxFireArt]

Originally Posted by Koshimizu

C.C., except for the incident in Stage 7, never opposes to anything he wants to do.

You see. That fact bothers me. If C.C. loves Lelouch I don't see why you would just blindly follow anything he wanted to do.
If it's someone you love how could to go along with a plan so willingly that would lead to their death? You should oppose it. Make it know and try and convince them to find another way.

Don't get me wrong. I think C.C. cares deeply for Lelouch.
The same for Kallen. She cares deeply for Lelouch. As a Kallen fan is was heartbreaking watching as she suffers opposing Lelouch. Look at that scene in episode 7. Kallen saw he was going to use Refrain. She got angry and yanked it out of his hand. Also if she was so devoted to him. She would of just done what he wanted and 'comforted him'. Instead she did the right thing and smacked some sense into him.

Thing is. C.C. was never clear about her feelings and neither was Kallen. Only reason we know Kallen is in Love with Lelouch is because of what Taniguchi told Koshimizu Ami in that magazine. Though that deep kiss she had with Lelouch was pretty convincing.

Originally Posted by Torri_fay_torren@hot

What depresses me most about the ending is only a few people and us know the true story of Lelouch. That it so upsetting.

That is true. Maybe only a few Black Knights knew. I think the only ones who truly knew what happened was Nunnally, Kallen, Suzaku, C.C., and most likely Cornelia. Kallen seemed to figure out what Lelouch had planned as soon as she saw "Zero".
I'm curious what Ougi, Tamaki, and Kallen were screaming out as Suzaku was about to strike Lelouch. I'm doubting Kallen said the same thing as Ougi and Tamaki.

[NettoSaito]

if they do make a season 3 of this most likely lelouch will still be alive but hidden from the show, and then maybe for some reason show up out of no where and everyone will be all "WHAT THE HECK!?" and it could go on from there lol

but really i think lelouch is alive because nanally gets them flash backs which people with the code can give them to who ever touches them.... and yeah.... she touched his hand.

also the code only turns on after the person "dies" in which he did.

another thing is that C.C. knew the whole plan and lelouch is the only one who could take the code from her, so she wouldn't let him die there unless she knew he was going to live.

but yeah most likely they will either make another season and keep him hidden until for some reason they feel he should appear again, or they wont make a 3rd season and make us keep wondering what will happen next forever.

[Asleep]

Originally Posted by FoxxFireArt

You see. That fact bothers me. If C.C. loves Lelouch I don't see why you would just blindly follow anything he wanted to do.
If it's someone you love how could to go along with a plan so willingly that would lead to their death? You should oppose it. Make it know and try and convince them to find another way.

Don't get me wrong. I think C.C. cares deeply for Lelouch.
The same for Kallen. She cares deeply for Lelouch. As a Kallen fan is was heartbreaking watching as she suffers opposing Lelouch. Look at that scene in episode 7. Kallen saw he was going to use Refrain. She got angry and yanked it out of his hand. Also if she was so devoted to him. She would of just done what he wanted and 'comforted him'. Instead she did the right thing and smacked some sense into him.

Thing is. C.C. was never clear about her feelings and neither was Kallen. Only reason we know Kallen is in Love with Lelouch is because of what Taniguchi told Koshimizu Ami in that magazine. Though that deep kiss she had with Lelouch was pretty convincing.

C.C. did not follow him blindly. At first she had no choice. It was his plan. But her returning to her prisoner clothes shows she is very sad about it. It is very clear she is unhappy if you watch the last scene in ep 21. Secondly, she does try to talk him out of it in ep 24. But she realises this is bigger than her or Lelouch and ultimately decides to support him after he managed convincing her.

It was the same with Suzaku I guess...I doubt he wanted to kill his best friend; but somethings are more important (like world peace ).

[Lie]

Originally Posted by Asleep

Secondly, she does try to talk him out of it in ep 24. But she realises this is bigger than her or Lelouch and ultimately decides to support him after he managed convincing her.

When did this happen? She didn't try to convince him of anything, she flat out told him he'd have to be prepared to kill Nunally. Trying to convince someone of not doing something usually involves: "Isn't there another way?" "Why not do this?" and so on.

[lovecakecookies]

Originally Posted by NettoSaito

if they do make a season 3 of this most likely lelouch will still be alive but hidden from the show, and then maybe for some reason show up out of no where and everyone will be all "WHAT THE HECK!?" and it could go on from there lol

but really i think lelouch is alive because nanally gets them flash backs which people with the code can give them to who ever touches them.... and yeah.... she touched his hand.

also the code only turns on after the person "dies" in which he did.

another thing is that C.C. knew the whole plan and lelouch is the only one who could take the code from her, so she wouldn't let him die there unless she knew he was going to live.

but yeah most likely they will either make another season and keep him hidden until for some reason they feel he should appear again, or they wont make a 3rd season and make us keep wondering what will happen next forever.

Umm.. he was alive when Nunnally saw his memories, so his code was not activated.. it wasn't possible for him to have the code activated because he had not died yet, going by this theory..