2012-05-18, 10:51 | Link #28921 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Only inside the limits of her three rooms, Wanderer, only inside those limits. Don't be that nitpicky now, it was well specified what Erika could do, Lambda didn't need to be so specific, it was implicit.
Lambda was not the game master she had no power whatsoever on the gameboard, she couldn't extend Erika's power in any way on her whim. In fact neither Bernkastel nor Lambda made up any new rule there, they were simply stating the facts.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2012-05-18 at 11:04. |
2012-05-18, 13:39 | Link #28922 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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2012-05-18, 14:28 | Link #28923 | |||
The True Culprit
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2012-05-18, 14:32 | Link #28924 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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You're making the extraordinary claim here (that ep8 is, in fact, wrong). You have to defend that. Asking other people where it says Erika can't take retroactive moves unrelated to what she was given permission for and have them wholly concealed from the Game Master is like asking somebody to prove Santa Claus doesn't exist. The default assumption is that he doesn't, and it needs to be demonstrated that he does by the person who wants us to believe in him. There is nothing in ep6 that suggests Battler does not or cannot know what Erika's actions are, even if she can take retroactive actions independent of what Battler explicitly gave her permission to do. Moreover, ep8 explicitly says that he must know, and hints that he did know but chose to act otherwise on purpose. To say nothing of all of the thematic elements of ep6 that only make sense in the context of him doing it on purpose, which I've intentionally left out of most of these conversations because it's like bludgeoning a beached dolphin with a sack full of carpentry screws. Again, if Erika is free to rewrite her entire set of actions prior to the Logic Error and hide them from Battler outright, why didn't she just kill him as well? There's no indication that Battler must still be alive for BATTLER to continue with the story. He doesn't need a piece any more than Beatrice needed one at the end of Turn or Alliance. As to why he didn't just retroactively kill Erika... he probably could have. But he didn't. Because it's not sporting, and he's not trying to win. You want to see him being a petty dick about it, there's the scene in Twilight.
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2012-05-18, 18:15 | Link #28925 | ||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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I'm saying that "the story" is different from "the game". Erika never actually killed anyone in Dawn, the story; she only did in the game that was based on Dawn. What was strange in EP8 was that Ange had disappeared from the story itself. Quote:
You do realize that the implications of your position leads us to the have to believe that Lambdadelta knew ahead of time everything that Erika did in EP5 too, right? Which basically means she lost completely on purpose. And again, how does your theory account for the reds that Bernkastel threw out in EP5? |
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2012-05-18, 18:29 | Link #28926 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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2012-05-18, 18:55 | Link #28927 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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For me the whole trick is a matter of specifics.
Battler allows Erika to seal 3 rooms and Erika could extend that definition to 'I've also repaired the chain' without telling him. Battler allowed Erika to examinate the bodies and she could include in it 'oh, I've also cut their heads' without telling him. We can say it's a dirty trick because that's not what a normal person would do when checking a body... but actually there's no rule that says she should have only looked at them without damaging them beyond 'the police wouldn't like it'. We know though that Erika knows the police won't come so she can play with the corpses as she pleases. And note that, although she was supposed to report immediately what she did with the duck tape she actually did it only later. So yes, I think as long as she can fit an action in the bounds of the agreements she has with Battler she can do something he could have not expected. Now... was Battler really not expecting this? He was searching for a logic error and he gave Erika all the chances to create one. Likely he expected her to do something to the bodies, be it chopping their head, shooting at them, stabbing them or tying them in such a way they couldn't move. Likely he also expected her to play dirty. So maybe he didn't know the specifics of Erika's actions (because she didn't tell him if he checked the pulse, if they were breathing, if they had wounds and so on) but he could figure out how it would end so I don't think Battler was surprised by the fact that Erika killed those people... though maybe he could have been surprised by the brutal method she used. |
2012-05-18, 19:02 | Link #28928 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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But if we go so far, it is even possible to claim that nothing of this happened, because Erika is not the detective, therefore her perspective can contain falsehoods.
Guess who can choose how many falsehoods a non-detective character can use? Right! It's the game master! The whole game was only a dream of Erika. So even real magic can appear inside. |
2012-05-18, 23:04 | Link #28929 | ||||
The True Culprit
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and Lambdadelta's immense praise of Battler's performance. Quote:
...And she throws popcorn to give Beatrice the oppurtunity to save Battler... And she rescued Will and Lion... And of course all of EP8 happened. Seriously, despite her claiming so, Lambdadelta has NEVER been neutral at any point in the series. She's always been pursuing her relationship with Bernkastel or protecting Beatrice, Battler, and their interests.
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2012-05-19, 01:48 | Link #28930 | |||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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On the other hand, Lambda did act surprised by Erika's moves in EP5, which would mean Lambda was trolling Erika from the very beginning into thinking she couldn't observe Erika's movements. And still, what's with Bern providing red for EP5? Does Bern know about this? And wait, why didn't Bern make a comment later? As a Game Master in EP7 and EP8, she would have known that Lambda and Battler pulled an epic team troll on Erika. You would think she'd at least make some kind of cryptic, sarcastic comment about it. Anyway, by my theory, Erika and Bern were just filling in Erika's actions after-the-fact at the trial. |
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2012-05-19, 04:34 | Link #28931 | |||
The True Culprit
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2012-05-19, 21:28 | Link #28932 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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In my opinion it is more likely Battler did plan to have Erika trap him somehow, and did so by leaving her a lot of blank space in the narrative to let her play with. "Erika examined the corpses" gave her a lot of leeway. |
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2012-05-20, 08:15 | Link #28933 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Did you guys ever notice that it makes a lot of sense for Tohya to have written bottles 3 and 4?
First he writes one where Eva is painted as the killer (which in prime is basically what happened anyway, so he was helping that charade along) and next was the one where he makes a big deal out of forgetting his sin. The question is, if Beatrice wrote bottles 1 and 2 post incident as many of you believe, why didn't she make a big deal of it? I don't recall her mentioning the sin at all. And far from siding with him or being upset at Battler, her witch was too busy being evil to wrack up any of the sympathy his did. |
2012-05-20, 08:24 | Link #28934 | |
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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And second, the reason of the message bottles wasn't to boost Beatrice's popularity and portray her as an amiable character. No matter how much childish she may appear, she is a murderer.
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2012-05-20, 09:14 | Link #28936 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Well I would argue Tohya's messages did work towards gaining her some sympathy, or at least showing her as more than just bonkers evil.
Though it is interesting that he remembered his promise to her and also who the culprit was right back as far as episode 3 (or else he couldn't have written it properly). I am not exactly sure what his magic amnesia covered then. |
2012-05-20, 09:22 | Link #28937 | |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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But now let's put that aside and assume Ikuko=RandomStranger. There is still the "book of one truth"... so not really a problem either. |
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2012-05-20, 09:27 | Link #28938 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Hmm, I suppose, that is if she ever actually had that book. That part of the story was so weird and layered with meta it is hard to know what happened. Though a case could be made to visit Eva even if she was a random stranger (due to her association with Battler) I was still never sure whether that occurred or not.
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2012-05-20, 14:41 | Link #28939 | |
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Even if Beatrice didn't kill anyone, it is suggested that she did have that intention. Well, it's just speculation, really. There is an endless amount of possibilities within the limited ring of October 5th and 6th.
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