One Piece "Haki" Thread [Manga]

[kari-no-sugata]

C.A, in another thread I posted the following:

I've no idea if Oda planned to use Haki as a named concept within the story itself right from the start... but the series certainly is better understood if you know about Haki.

For example, all the way back in chapter 2... Coby has been cowering before Alvida for two years, yet it only takes a few minutes after meeting Luffy before he decides to stand up to her. You could say that Luffy's unrefined Haoushoku Haki was enough to inspire Coby. In a more conventional Western sense you would say that Luffy has a certain kind of charisma.

Do you think this is a good example of Haki?

[C.A.]

The Haki of a person is every single bit of will and intention, the means of having that will and intention and everything that makes up what a person wants to do. In an environment where people compete and struggle against each other, that will and determination that one carries to help bring him to the top, is Haki. Whether you do it by being extremely strong, extremely clever, have a powerful weapon, or have a Devil Fruit ability, it all adds up to be the Haki you have.

And with your Haki, you are competing against the Haki of others. Some band together and merge their Haki, to work towards the same goal, others go against you, as an individual or as a group.

@Red-Haired Shanks:

May I know whether you understand Japanese or Chinese? Because your understanding of Haki is incomplete. While you attempt to understand the term, you're understanding it only from observation, which Oda has not fully revealed the extent of what Haki can do. I believe you do not understand Haki from its fundamentals, the word itself.

Devil Fruit abilities are just one heavy factor that affects Haki, positively or negatively. If you have an ability, you may rely on it alot, but its your strongest point, which makes sense for you to rely on it. Your reliance on that ability allows you to be extremely strong, which adds to your Haki, but it can also be your weakness and allow others to exploit it. When you want to defeat someone, you do every thing possible, weapons, abilities, powers, weakspots, this will to try everything is that intention, that Haki you possess.

@SMASHERJACKSON:

Your understanding of Haki is pretty good, you understand that Haki comprises of a large amount of factors that builds up this strength of an individual or group.

@kari-no-sugata:

Yes, I think you're correct, Coby was affected by Luffy's charisma, that charisma is the Haki he emanates. He feels that he can do anything with Luffy on his side. This is how Haki affect allies, when their wills overlap, they form stronger wills, which means a stronger Haki.

[SMASHERJACKSON]

Originally Posted by C.A.

The Haki of a person is every single bit of will and intention, the means of having that will and intention and everything that makes up what a person wants to do. In an environment where people compete and struggle against each other, that will and determination that one carries to help bring him to the top, is Haki. Whether you do it by being extremely strong, extremely clever, have a powerful weapon, or have a Devil Fruit ability, it all adds up to be the Haki you have.

And with your Haki, you are competing against the Haki of others. Some band together and merge their Haki, to work towards the same goal, others go against you, as an individual or as a group.

@Red-Haired Shanks:

May I know whether you understand Japanese or Chinese? Because your understanding of Haki is incomplete. While you attempt to understand the term, you're understanding it only from observation, which Oda has not fully revealed the extent of what Haki can do. I believe you do not understand Haki from its fundamentals, the word itself.

Devil Fruit abilities are just one heavy factor that affects Haki, positively or negatively. If you have an ability, you may rely on it alot, but its your strongest point, which makes sense for you to rely on it. Your reliance on that ability allows you to be extremely strong, which adds to your Haki, but it can also be your weakness and allow others to exploit it. When you want to defeat someone, you do every thing possible, weapons, abilities, powers, weakspots, this will to try everything is that intention, that Haki you possess.

@SMASHERJACKSON:

Your understanding of Haki is pretty good, you understand that Haki comprises of a large amount of factors that builds up this strength of an individual or group.

@kari-no-sugata:

Yes, I think you're correct, Coby was affected by Luffy's charisma, that charisma is the Haki he emanates. He feels that he can do anything with Luffy on his side. This is how Haki affect allies, when their wills overlap, they form stronger wills, which means a stronger Haki.

ty for the comment, but i feel u guys are really over complicating things and treating it abit too much like a "material"science rather then a social science, though to even treat it as a science is over doing it imhumbleo [which i was trying to simplify with my previous post].

I agree with ones haki being able to elivate someone elses, and looking it at it from this point of view makes me even more certain the closest translation to what haki actualy is in practicality is ones character as part of ones character is there charisma, which can inspire those around you for better or worse [depending if theyre rooting for or against u] if youve got the integrity to follow through with your actions.

Best exelmplified by luffy, as one way or another he got the job done many a times when other persons thought it was not possible, regardless of wether with or without help from other people.

[C.A.]

I agree that the term has been made over complicated, simply because the word is actually a simple word in Chinese and Japanese. But because it doesn't exist in English, it has been extremely hard to get across to Western audience.

If I state it in a very simple form, people would not be able to understand why and how I get to such a definition. Its like stating physics laws, a simple law actually has alot of calculations and theories behind it that eventually derives into a single sentence.

The simplest form I can describe Haki is: A will that allows one to overcome others.

[holypanl]

Originally Posted by paradox13

Intimidation isn't the same as Haki.

Thats why what you say in this thread is wrong.

Read over the following line from C.A's post carefully, then refine that statement.

Originally Posted by C.A.

...
Then we have our main topic, Haki. Yes, you should be able to understand its a 'spirit of dominance', 'ambitious spirit', 'a will to dominate', something like that.
...

I didn't see him define it as intimidation. Nope. Anyone else?
------------------------------------
Seeing as this topic is back on-line, I'd like to put forward seomthing I've been wanting to hilight a bit.

With regards to the One Piece principle of Haki, as I've put forward before sometime, It appears to have two main forms of manifestation:

(1) An unrefined, outflowing form which is simply a radiating expulsion of the owner's pure drive, and vigour. Anything and anyone less powerful than itself is damaged.

(2) A concentrated, synchronized form in which the person directly puts all of his willpower into accomplishing something, demonstrated in pretty good detail by Zoro during the Das Bones fight, and labelled "The Understanding of the Breath of All Things."

In one of C.A.'s posts he implies that Kizaru was stopped/frozen momentarily by Rayleigh's Haki while fighting.

I'd like to table the notion that that was not just Rayleigh's pure intent to save the Strawhats, but rather (seeing as, I imagine, Kizaru would have strong willpower as well, and would not flinch so easily) an example of the use of the Breath of All Things.

Haki is resident in all things; This is a principle common to almost all asian cultures: that there is an inherent energy, or frequency of life in everything. Understanding/Grasping/Getting to Know the "Breath" of something is to understand its life energy. Its "breath", of frequency of living, and to synchronize yourself with it.

Read the Das Bones Fight: Zoro undergoes a Spiritual moment, wherein his grasp of the Breath of objects around him is amplified (an 'out of body' moment, or one of those moments when time seems to 'slow down', and you gain a heightened sense of awareness and insight).

It is amplified to such an extent (no doubt fuelled by Zoro's own powerful drive to reach his goal), that he begins to read the Breath of the items around him. The rocks: he knew exactly where they were, and where they would fall. The sword which was beneath the rubble: He had become able to hear and grasp the Breath of metal.

The he tried to cut a leaf, while his Haki, concentrated into his sword, was focused on interacting with the Breath of rock. He failed to cut it. Yet a moment later, he cut a rock with hardly any effort whatsoever.

Then, synchronizing his will, and hardening his resolve into a concentrated form (see above), he channelled all his focus into cutting at the core, or Breath, or Life Frequency of Metal. And that's how he cut into Das Bones.

I'd like to state that Kizaru wasn't fazed by an unconcentrated form of Rayleigh's Haki, but rather that Rayleigh was simply attacking the Breath of "Light", and so he was able to cut it, having grasped its frequency.

-Regards,
holypanl

[C.A.]

Hmmm, holypanl, seems like you're ready to take one more step above understanding Haki, which is 'Ki' itself.

As I mentioned in the previous page:

Originally Posted by C.A.

Ha: The word 'ha' means domination. To have the ambition to rule supreme over others, to be better than others and rule over them.

Ki: The word 'ki' is the spirit, the lifeforce, or just the force that's found in everything in the universe. It is also the person's well being, his mood, emotions, everything that's part of his spirit. It is also the presence, the atmosphere of something or someone that is emitted or in the air. Or you can call it the 'aura' of things.

How does Haki relate to Ki? The closest example I can think of is force and force in a direction.

Ki is the amount of force one can apply, Haki is the force applied in a direction, this direction is the the intention and will of a person trying to overcome others. Its also like speed and velocity, speed is just speed, velocity has a direction.

You brought Breath of all things into the topic. You should realise that 'Breath' is really 'Ki' itself. All things in the universe has this energy, this force, which is its 'Ki'.

In one of my earliest posts in this thread I mentioned this:

Originally Posted by C.A.

The concept of breath, '呼吸' ( こきゅう) (kokyuu), which literally does mean breath or breathing, is closely related to ki '気' (き). Ki means mood, spirit and can also be air.

When Zoro's master taught him to realise the Breath of all things, he really means to be able to be one with the Ki of all things. To be one with an object, is to have a same frequency with that object. In the concept of Ki, to attain the same frequency, one has to regulate his breathing, the act of breathing is the frequency of your lifeforce and you can control it. By controlling your emotions and laying down your intentions, you can control your breathing and release energy to cut anything you wish to.

This is what I believe Breath of all things refer to.

Instead of Breath of all things being Haki itself, knowing the Breath is one way of strengthening your Haki. By knowing how to control your Ki, you can control your Haki, you can push it in a direction with greater force.

[holypanl]

And now, I think my understanding is really complete. ^_^

Thanks, C.A. It's good to have you around to put things in perspective.

I'll just do some reading on it, and I think I should have it pretty rounded. I would have given you a rep+, but when I clicked it, I got some message saying I 'must spread around some more rep' or something, so...

-Regards,
holypanl

[stray]

Originally Posted by C.A.

The simplest form I can describe Haki is: A will that allows one to overcome others.

Little bit late to this party, but I've been kind of intrigued by the whole haki thing lately.

I kind of brought this up elsewhere, but if you were talking about a fighter or something comparable in English you could talk about how much "heart" they have, or in relation to something like a 'king's haki' the "heart of a champion." A little bit loose, but it fits, for the most part.

Of course, the distinction between the actual "haki burst" attack and using it measure of a character's spirit is still pretty damn hazy, and may be a bit of a play on words IMO. Clearly everyone has haki, but the actual "haki attack" seems pretty exclusive to the women of Amazon Lily, Rayleigh, and maybe a few other characters in the story depending on who you ask.

Kind of came up with a theory that the women of Amazon Lily basically mastered the haki ability as an equalizer against the men they had to fight. Someone from AL (my guess is Shakky, if she were from AL it'd explain Hancock's age/timeframes) turned traitor over love, or, whatever, and left the Kuja and because of what she saw in Roger taught him and some of his crew the secret to mastering haki attacks. Would explain Rayleigh and Shanks... not so much Sentomaru if you think he has haki attack abilities, but he has a female seiyu, so I'm voting either a boy born on AL and cast out or a really butch female. Not that the story supports it... but it's something.

[Vampire]

I hope haki will show up in some form instead of just something cheap that you can't see. It's cool to have something to balance out the powers and overcoming the overpowered logia DFs but if it's not something flashy or complex then I rather not have it at all. There's King's Disposition haki so we might see other sorts of haki that differs for each person. It would be interesting to see haki powering up DFs and mostly everyone in the top ranking(Whitebeard, Hawk Eye, and etc.) should be able to use it.

[Uncreativex]

Has it ever been confirmed that Haki doesn't appear in DF users as it does in normal people? It'd be pretty weird if that was the case. The idea of Haki originating from Kuja sounds unlikely too, it's probably just that that culture has long, long roots of isolation and is very warlike. If the case is that no DF users have used Haki like Shanks/Rayleight (yet), then I'd argue that it's just that who bothers making people faint when you can kick them at the speed of light or similar.

Haki actually reminds me of the concept of magic in the Lord of the Rings. While the hobbits see magic as a concept about summoning flames etc, the elves explain that it's the "will" of the enemy that affect outcomes etc. It also reminds me of concepts in certain Asian works/fiction, for example, in the movie "Hero", two great swordsmen do battle with their minds, or wills if you will.

It seems like a very abstract concept to me, and I doubt we'll see it take "physical" shape.

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by stray

I kind of brought this up elsewhere, but if you were talking about a fighter or something comparable in English you could talk about how much "heart" they have, or in relation to something like a 'king's haki' the "heart of a champion." A little bit loose, but it fits, for the most part.

Of course, the distinction between the actual "haki burst" attack and using it measure of a character's spirit is still pretty damn hazy, and may be a bit of a play on words IMO. Clearly everyone has haki, but the actual "haki attack" seems pretty exclusive to the women of Amazon Lily, Rayleigh, and maybe a few other characters in the story depending on who you ask.

If "heart of a champion" refers to the desire to defeat others and stand out on top, yea its what Haki is about.

The 'Haki burst' is one of the most common or fundamental applications of Haki in manga. When someone wants others to stop what they're doing without wanting to touch them, they send out a huge burst of intention usually using their eyes. By showing an expression of intense anger, it sends a wave of fear into the enemies, this is the basic application of Haki as a form of intimidation.

If your opponents' will is strong enough, they are not intimidated and it doesn't affect them. If they have weak wills, they may be petrified, run away, or even faint from terror.

Originally Posted by Vampire

I hope haki will show up in some form instead of just something cheap that you can't see. It's cool to have something to balance out the powers and overcoming the overpowered logia DFs but if it's not something flashy or complex then I rather not have it at all. There's King's Disposition haki so we might see other sorts of haki that differs for each person. It would be interesting to see haki powering up DFs and mostly everyone in the top ranking(Whitebeard, Hawk Eye, and etc.) should be able to use it.

Haki is not a fictional powerup 'stat', its not some visible power that materialises into flames or something. Haki is a real trait, its part of a person's character and personality.

If you want Haki to be something visible, physical, its like saying you want to be able to see courage, intelligence, strength in the form of something. Haki, along with these traits are not visible by themselves, but they can always be felt, as part of a person's actions.

[Rurik]

Sorry, for asking this if you have responded it before, but how would you, inside the context of what you explained until now, categorize those Arrows that were embended by Haki and were as strong and resilient as hell?

[stray]

Originally Posted by C.A.

If "heart of a champion" refers to the desire to defeat others and stand out on top, yea its what Haki is about.

The 'Haki burst' is one of the most common or fundamental applications of Haki in manga. When someone wants others to stop what they're doing without wanting to touch them, they send out a huge burst of intention usually using their eyes. By showing an expression of intense anger, it sends a wave of fear into the enemies, this is the basic application of Haki as a form of intimidation.

If your opponents' will is strong enough, they are not intimidated and it doesn't affect them. If they have weak wills, they may be petrified, run away, or even faint from terror. Haki is not a fictional powerup 'stat', its not some visible power that materialises into flames or something. Haki is a real trait, its part of a person's character and personality.

I can understand the "intimidation" angle somewhat, but I don't think the story really supports it. I mean look at Rayleigh vs. Kizaru... I guess you could say Rayleigh intimidated the light, but Kizaru was fairly aloof throughout the fight. Luffy's "haki burst" during the flying fish rider arc was basically reactive rather than being based on some deeper sense of determination. And, if you want to use Zoro "cutting steel" as a possible example of haki, he had to step back and basically meditate to be able to hear the breath of steel.

If you want Haki to be something visible, physical, its like saying you want to be able to see courage, intelligence, strength in the form of something. Haki, along with these traits are not visible by themselves, but they can always be felt, as part of a person's actions.

I never got into either series really, but since you brought up other Shonen tropes, Naruto has chakra with wild hand gestures... and didn't DBZ have "ki" that was basically signified by a colored aura? Maybe Buggy could make haki flashy.

Anyway, bear with me for a sec in the assumption that the haki ability is firmly grounded in Amazon Lily, since... well, they have a complete mastery of it. Let's go a step further and call it a "feminine" trait. Maybe along the lines of "women's intuition" or something. I know, I know, we're getting farther and farther from the literal meaning of the word "haki." But stop looking at the word so much and instead look at the context. It's not an active ability, it's execution is effortless, and for all the determination, ambition, heart, fighting spirit, and all the high level characters we've seen, it has only manifested itself in a marginal number of (possible) examples. And those examples came when a character basically "let go."

I'm not trying to argue the literal meaning of the word "haki," in fact as I've said before it seems to be used interchangably between the two contexts. Maybe the Kuja owned the word to imply harmony between ki and determination or something, I'm not trying to delve that deeply. What I am trying to say is that it's basis seems to be rooted in manipulation through harmony, rather than manipulation through focus or power.

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Sorry, for asking this if you have responded it before, but how would you, inside the context of what you explained until now, categorize those Arrows that were embended by Haki and were as strong and resilient as hell?

In the Japanese traditional martial arts, actually all martial arts, Ki is an important factor. To be powerful, you need to have a good grasp at Ki, this includes Japanese traditional archery, Kyudo.

In Kyudo, you don't just focus, aim and control your breathing. You must also have an intention to hit your target while meditating. Control of breath and meditation is to regulate the archer's Ki, which will be transferred to the arrow along with his intentions.

In One Piece, they're doing exactly the same, but exaggerated. The Amazons have such great archery and control of their Ki, Haki in this case, their arrows can smash rocks.

In the Hong Kong manhua Feng Yun, there's extensive practice of Haki in their martial arts. There was this guy who used a bow, who's arrows are homing phoenixes formed from his Haki.

Originally Posted by stray

I can understand the "intimidation" angle somewhat, but I don't think the story really supports it. I mean look at Rayleigh vs. Kizaru... I guess you could say Rayleigh intimidated the light, but Kizaru was fairly aloof throughout the fight. Luffy's "haki burst" during the flying fish rider arc was basically reactive rather than being based on some deeper sense of determination. And, if you want to use Zoro "cutting steel" as a possible example of haki, he had to step back and basically meditate to be able to hear the breath of steel.

Haki is not just intimidation, but intimidation is part of Haki. Haki is the will or intention to overcome others. What Rayleigh had was the intention of stopping Kizaru, his will was so strong that even light was stopped. And if you look at it in another perspective, ignore light or swords, its simply Rayleigh's intentions vs Kizaru's intentions. Its the clashing of their wills that's important, not the weapons and powers they're using.

For your part on Zoro, its the same thing as I mentioned above for archery. And the reason why Zoro still has to meditate, is because he hasn't mastered the technique. When he first used Breath on Mr 1, it was his first time using and he had to concentrate by meditating. After that Zoro has been getting more used to Breath and he was slicing steel with less concentration. As they say, practice makes perfect, Zoro will eventually be able to use Breath literally like part of his breathing.

Originally Posted by stray

I never got into either series really, but since you brought up other Shonen tropes, Naruto has chakra with wild hand gestures... and didn't DBZ have "ki" that was basically signified by a colored aura? Maybe Buggy could make haki flashy.

Anyway, bear with me for a sec in the assumption that the haki ability is firmly grounded in Amazon Lily, since... well, they have a complete mastery of it. Let's go a step further and call it a "feminine" trait. Maybe along the lines of "women's intuition" or something. I know, I know, we're getting farther and farther from the literal meaning of the word "haki." But stop looking at the word so much and instead look at the context. It's not an active ability, it's execution is effortless, and for all the determination, ambition, heart, fighting spirit, and all the high level characters we've seen, it has only manifested itself in a marginal number of (possible) examples. And those examples came when a character basically "let go."

I'm not trying to argue the literal meaning of the word "haki," in fact as I've said before it seems to be used interchangably between the two contexts. Maybe the Kuja owned the word to imply harmony between ki and determination or something, I'm not trying to delve that deeply. What I am trying to say is that it's basis seems to be rooted in manipulation through harmony, rather than manipulation through focus or power.

About flashiness of Ki, it can be flashy, but its up to the mangaka.

First, a real life example, Shaolin Monks. If you've ever seen them channeling and regulating their Ki before smashing steel on the heads or resisting sharp weapons stuck into them, you'll see they do alot of big movements and stances that's almost like a dance. That can be described as 'flashy'.

And in manga, Haki can be exaggerated depending on how far the mangaka wants to suspend belief, like the Chinese Manhua Feng Yun, I mentioned above.

In Fist of the North Star, Ki or Haki are represented by a flaming aura around the fighter. Kenshiro also intimidates his opponents with a piercing stare, or with a hotblooded yell, usually before he does his Hyakuretsu Ken.

In Street Fighter mangas(I've repeated this example many times in this subforum), you get Ki that's represented as auras of different colours. The colour of the aura shows how powerful the fighter is and can be seen only by other fighters. And Gouki, famous for his flames is actually representing his Sakki(intention to kill). His Sakki is so strong that it manifests into flames. Of course there's always Hadoken and other projectiles that are also manifestations of Ki into something tangible.

Will Oda give Luffy Hadokens? Most probably not, because Oda is using a non flashy adaptation of Haki. More down to Earth, to show the extent of a person's will, through a person's determination and intentions. The Haki is shown through a person's actions and not a fireball of will like Hadoken or like Kamehameha.

[stray]

Originally Posted by C.A.

And in manga, Haki can be exaggerated depending on how far the mangaka wants to suspend belief, like the Chinese Manhua Feng Yun, I mentioned above.

In Fist of the North Star, Ki or Haki are represented by a flaming aura around the fighter. Kenshiro also intimidates his opponents with a piercing stare, or with a hotblooded yell, usually before he does his Hyakuretsu Ken.

In Street Fighter mangas(I've repeated this example many times in this subforum), you get Ki that's represented as auras of different colours. The colour of the aura shows how powerful the fighter is and can be seen only by other fighters. And Gouki, famous for his flames is actually representing his Sakki(intention to kill). His Sakki is so strong that it manifests into flames. Of course there's always Hadoken and other projectiles that are also manifestations of Ki into something tangible.

Will Oda give Luffy Hadokens? Most probably not, because Oda is using a non flashy adaptation of Haki. More down to Earth, to show the extent of a person's will, through a person's determination and intentions. The Haki is shown through a person's actions and not a fireball of will like Hadoken or like Kamehameha.

Hmmm... Don't get me wrong, I completely understand your points of reference, I just think you're looking in the wrong place. Haki didn't come from an island of martial artists, it came (more or less) from the isle of women. Let me try this again, except to put things in the simplest possible (story) terms:

If the ability of D. is the ability to hear the "voice" of all things, haki, in essence, is the ability to "speak the language" of all things.

It's a tricky concept to grasp, but there are elements of it everywhere, in shintoism, "paganism," and magic/witchcraft in a purer sense. It is very similar to some of what you've described, but the basis is completely different... it's not the strength of his will and intimidation that could bend the light, but that the light understood his will and became an extension of it, if that makes any sense. Same thing with the arrow, except the wind instead of light. Actually, a great example of what I'm trying to say would be Loguetown. If the wind was one with Marge's intent just behind that one arrow, then think of a storm behind someone with a the haki of a king's (Dragon) intent. Beats the wind-wind fruit theory, IMHO.

It seems like an uber powerful hax ability that can manipulate anything, but in perspective... well, I'm going to see what more we hear of it before I finish that sentence. As far as the "intimidation" technique, did Shanks scare off the lord of the coast with sheer intimidation, or because it understood his intent? Same with Luffy. Hell, was it even haki? I dunno, and I'm not trying to say I'm completely right, but I think given what we've seen of haki so far I'm on the right track.

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by stray

Hmmm... Don't get me wrong, I completely understand your points of reference, I just think you're looking in the wrong place. Haki didn't come from an island of martial artists, it came (more or less) from the isle of women. Let me try this again, except to put things in the simplest possible (story) terms:

If the ability of D. is the ability to hear the "voice" of all things, haki, in essence, is the ability to "speak the language" of all things.

It's a tricky concept to grasp, but there are elements of it everywhere, in shintoism, "paganism," and magic/witchcraft in a purer sense. It is very similar to some of what you've described, but the basis is completely different... it's not the strength of his will and intimidation that could bend the light, but that the light understood his will and became an extension of it, if that makes any sense. Same thing with the arrow, except the wind instead of light. Actually, a great example of what I'm trying to say would be Loguetown. If the wind was one with Marge's intent just behind that one arrow, then think of a storm behind someone with a the haki of a king's (Dragon) intent. Beats the wind-wind fruit theory, IMHO.

It seems like an uber powerful hax ability that can manipulate anything, but in perspective... well, I'm going to see what more we hear of it before I finish that sentence. As far as the "intimidation" technique, did Shanks scare off the lord of the coast with sheer intimidation, or because it understood his intent? Same with Luffy. Hell, was it even haki? I dunno, and I'm not trying to say I'm completely right, but I think given what we've seen of haki so far I'm on the right track.

Actually your perspective of Haki creates similar results to mine, but yours is more abstract and philosophical than the meaning of Haki itself already is.

Haki cannot originate from Amazon Lily, because its like saying 'courage', 'intelligence' originates from some place. Haki is a trait which already exists in all humans. But if you're saying the technique of applying Haki directly into martial arts originates from Amazon Lily, that is completely plausible.

One main difference between the way Haki is used in and out of Amazon Lily is control. Because the Amazons live in a society that's familiar with Haki, its fully integrated into their every action. People outside of Amazon Lily have Haki, but they use it in a very raw form, they do not have control over it as precise as the Amazons. Its like Shaolin, the place where Ki and martial arts originate, the practice of Ki in martial arts.

On your part about 'understanding intention'.

One thing about Haki is that the word implies exacting someone's will over others. It is to force others under your will, you overcome and dominate over them. The words Haki literally means 'dominating spirit', refer to my post #162 of this thread.

The way Haki works is like a clashing of forces, your Haki vs your opponents Haki. Whoever has the weaker will get overwhelmed by the opposing Haki and take his blow. Understanding is not exactly involved, its a tug of war, simply one side trying to overcome another, refer to post #173.

I'm not sure about Dragon, but I'll talk about Rayleigh and Kizaru.

When Kizaru used his lightsaber on Rayleigh, his intention is to slash Rayleigh with the lightsaber. Rayleigh's intention is to stop Kizaru by fighting him. Kizaru's intention, 'slashing Rayleigh with lightsaber', is not enough to overcome Rayleigh's, 'intention of stopping Kizaru'. Their intentions are as strong as each other, so they are stuck in a saber lock.

This is what I mean by intention is what's important, its the strength of their will, the weapons and abilities they're wielding doesn't matter in such an event.

Anyway I've been repeating my Haki posts all the while, I'm basically rewording what I already posted in this thread. I do recommend people to read my earlier posts, from page 3 onwards.

[stray]

Originally Posted by C.A.

Actually your perspective of Haki creates similar results to mine, but yours is more abstract and philosophical than the meaning of Haki itself already is.

Haki cannot originate from Amazon Lily, because its like saying 'courage', 'intelligence' originates from some place. Haki is a trait which already exists in all humans. But if you're saying the technique of applying Haki directly into martial arts originates from Amazon Lily, that is completely plausible.

One main difference between the way Haki is used in and out of Amazon Lily is control. Because the Amazons live in a society that's familiar with Haki, its fully integrated into their every action. People outside of Amazon Lily have Haki, but they use it in a very raw form, they do not have control over it as precise as the Amazons. Its like Shaolin, the place where Ki and martial arts originate, the practice of Ki in martial arts.

Eh... stating that "'all things' have a voice" is ideologically loaded in and of itself. Mine is rooted more in something you'd see in 'harnessing the power of the earth' type RPG magic, and in the context that the Kuja are basically witches rather than martial arts masters. The end result being essentially the same, but it's how you get there that's important.

As far as haki (the ability) being rooted in Amazon Lily, I'm not necessarily focused on that right now. But the fact remains the Kuja are the only ones in the One Piece universe with a mastery of it... that being the case, I do think that haki is a reflection of them, either way.

On your part about 'understanding intention'.

One thing about Haki is that the word implies exacting someone's will over others. It is to force others under your will, you overcome and dominate over them. The words Haki literally means 'dominating spirit', refer to my post #162 of this thread.

My Japanese is not that far past beginner level, but I know the dictionary definition of the word is "ambition," and ok, it might have a deeper context in martial arts, I honestly don't know.

You yourself mentioned 天気 (tenki) is the weather... so... by that logic, and the dictionary defintion of "ki," 覇気 (haki), could mean something like... 'dominating' ("supremacy over" has a better ring) the air, or {the forces of} nature... right?

The way Haki works is like a clashing of forces, your Haki vs your opponents Haki. Whoever has the weaker will get overwhelmed by the opposing Haki and take his blow. Understanding is not exactly involved, its a tug of war, simply one side trying to overcome another, refer to post #173.

Hmmm... I think you're actually equating haki to something alot more powerful and philosophical than I am... actually, before we go on, let me take a moment to review the definition of 覇 (ha). And since you linked me to your previous post on the subject:

Ha: The word 'ha' means domination. To have the ambition to rule supreme over others, to be better than others and rule over them.
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Then we have our main topic, Haki. Yes, you should be able to understand its a 'spirit of dominance', 'ambitious spirit', 'a will to dominate', something like that.

I personally like 'spirit of a champion' as my second choice behind 'supremacy over nature.' Ambitious spirit is kind of redundant since ha + ki is ambition.

I think you're too hung up on this "domination" angle, honestly. I don't disagree with you in principle; as I've said repeatedly I think Oda is using "ambition" as both a barometer of fighting spirit and the ability itself. But I do think you're imposing concepts that just don't fit. I can respect that you're looking to martial arts manga as a frame of reference but... it's not a martial arts manga, it's a pirate manga with alot of puns and double entendres. Hell I don't trust anything in there to be literal.

I'm not sure about Dragon, but I'll talk about Rayleigh and Kizaru.

When Kizaru used his lightsaber on Rayleigh, his intention is to slash Rayleigh with the lightsaber. Rayleigh's intention is to stop Kizaru by fighting him. Kizaru's intention, 'slashing Rayleigh with lightsaber', is not enough to overcome Rayleigh's, 'intention of stopping Kizaru'. Their intentions are as strong as each other, so they are stuck in a saber lock.

Hmmm... another situation where I disagree with you at the root. I was going to say this in my last post: as I described haki in my theory, it seems like a total hax ability that can manipulate anything, but... in perspective it's basically just an equalizer. Consider it elemental; he could take control of Kizaru's light, but beyond that it wouldn't affect Kizaru. It basically just made it a fair fight. It looks powerful... it can be incredibly powerful... it's anything but overpowering, though.

In that sense... I guess you could kind of call it an intimidation technique...

This is what I mean by intention is what's important, its the strength of their will, the weapons and abilities they're wielding doesn't matter in such an event.

Anyway I've been repeating my Haki posts all the while, I'm basically rewording what I already posted in this thread. I do recommend people to read my earlier posts, from page 3 onwards.

I've read most of your posts on the subject, I just think you're wrong. Actually, no... to rephrase an expression, you're putting a round peg in a square hole... it fits, but not quite.

I appreciate the discussion, though, and I do think part of what you're saying is somewhat on the right track, and actually helped me fill out my theory a bit better.

[C.A.]

Its alright if you think I'm wrong, nobody is going to believe anything until Oda says so anyway.

The way Haki works in One Piece is exactly the same fundamentally as all the manga I've read. My manga reading friends have the exact same perspective as I do as well. It could be the way we've been influenced by our Asian comics from young that we share the same perspective.

Haki is an Asian concept, the reason why Haki threads like this can become so big is simply because the concept doesnt exist in the West and is hard for Westerners to grasp. Even if Oda finally goes right to the point and explains it, the concept may still be very different in Western perspectives.

[stray]

Originally Posted by C.A.

Its alright if you think I'm wrong, nobody is going to believe anything until Oda says so anyway.

The way Haki works in One Piece is exactly the same fundamentally as all the manga I've read. My manga reading friends have the exact same perspective as I do as well. It could be the way we've been influenced by our Asian comics from young that we share the same perspective.

Consensus doesn't make it absolute, or correct. It's just a theory, like everyone else's. My only gripe with you is that you've been treating it as fact.

Haki is an Asian concept, the reason why Haki threads like this can become so big is simply because the concept doesnt exist in the West and is hard for Westerners to grasp.

If Oda had sent Luffy to an island of martial arts masters I'd probably be more in agreement. But... he didn't. The haki masters we've met so far are (mostly) from an island of women.

For such an 'asian' concept, it's kind of interesting that he put it in such a 'western' context, don't you think?

Even if Oda finally goes right to the point and explains it, the concept may still be very different in Western perspectives.

Actually, I meant to ask this before, and if I missed this in one of your previous postings, I apologize, I skimmed through just now and couldn't find you address it.

As I understand it your "domination theory" is based on will over an opponent primarily, or inner energy manifested/projected with the example of a hadouken, or as sheer intimidation over lesser beings/opponents. Using haki, however, Rayleigh was able to diffuse and/or redirect the blast of Keimi's explosive collar. (and presumably his own) There was no opponent, or any lesser beings there; only the explosive collar itself... well, unless you count Keimi. If you don't mind, how would haki in a domination or intimidation sense fit into that?

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by stray

Consensus doesn't make it absolute, or correct. It's just a theory, like everyone else's. My only gripe with you is that you've been treating it as fact.

If Oda had sent Luffy to an island of martial arts masters I'd probably be more in agreement. But... he didn't. The haki masters we've met so far are (mostly) from an island of women.

For such an 'asian' concept, it's kind of interesting that he put it in such a 'western' context, don't you think?

Actually, I meant to ask this before, and if I missed this in one of your previous postings, I apologize, I skimmed through just now and couldn't find you address it.

As I understand it your "domination theory" is based on will over an opponent primarily, or inner energy manifested/projected with the example of a hadouken, or as sheer intimidation over lesser beings/opponents. Using haki, however, Rayleigh was able to diffuse and/or redirect the blast of Keimi's explosive collar. (and presumably his own) There was no opponent, or any lesser beings there; only the explosive collar itself... well, unless you count Keimi. If you don't mind, how would haki in a domination or intimidation sense fit into that?

Because what I said are indeed what has been presented of Haki over the years, it has been around in manga for such a long time, its a regular and recognised occurrence. I've already pointed out examples of manga where Haki is explained outright and were important factors. The only thing about One Piece is that it is it being read by alot of Western readers who are new to manga and new to the term. Older manga tend to use Haki alot more than recent manga, its simply because it was overused and mangaka nowadays had to come up with more 'unique' power up systems.

Haki does not only work with martial artists, it works with anyone in a competitive enviroment. The competitive edge, the desire to win, dominating over others is Haki. In fact here in Asia, the word '覇 (Ha)' is used everywhere in the media. Box office tops, radio rankings, sports champs, coporate giants etc., the number one spot is the '覇王 (Haou)'. Their dominance over the rankings gives them a '覇気 (Haki)' that all competitors look up to. To be ambitious means you have a great desire and it usually means there's lots of competition and obstacles you have to defeat.

Haki isn't the only Japanese element in One Piece. You have to wonder why Pirates wield katanas and there's even a whole ranking system of katana rarity and power. And why characters, named or nameless, speak in all sorts of Japanese dialects and slangs. A whole bunch of attack names have furigana of foreign words over the real kanji name. Oda also uses lots of Japanese cultural references all over the story. The story is inherently more Japanese than anything else. People have missed out alot on the story's essence through translation for both manga and anime. 'Haki' is just like 'Nakama', words that translators feel that it should be kept in Japanese so that it doesn't lose too much meaning.

Rayleigh taking off the collar is not Haki at all, its just an extremely fast and powerful movement that even deflects the explosion off.

And like I mentioned in my Ki explanation posts, Ki is referred differently in different situations. Your Ki is your mood and spirit, only when you want to defeat someone it is called '覇気' (haki). Having a killing intention, '殺気' (sakki), having an evil intention, '悪気' (warugi). Feeling serious, '本気' (honki), feeling healthy/energetic, '元気' (genki), innocence, '無邪気' (mujaki). And many more.

What kind of intention or mood did Rayleigh have when he was pulling off the collar? I don't know. Maybe '本気' (honki)? Or '気配り' (kikubari), care/ attention/ consideration. Unless you're saying Rayleigh wants to defeat the collar, yea maybe he has a haki at that moment.