2018-08-14, 17:08 | Link #141 | |
Born to ship
Join Date: Oct 2014
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What makes it worse is that the way things have played out I get the impression, as I mentioned before, that this "Evolution of Power" is a crucial point to the "Evolution of Love". I mean, the way things played out with the Seals seems to suggest that growing toward Love is at least highly facilitated if not dependent on the ability to reject the satisfaction offered by the Seal. A few have accepted the satisfaction and wound up with absolutely no motivation for anything, no ability to grow in any way. But those that acknowledged their problems and openly rejected the illusion in favor of finding their own way out seem to have grown and matured as people, and in fact the first demonstration of "Love" came from such people. My point is, it could be that Power is just a step in the process of maturing toward Love and instead of stopping races going the wrong way what Nebula's really doing is crippling people right before they matured. |
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2018-08-14, 18:13 | Link #142 |
Seishu's Ace
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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Justice is a siren’s song, a mirage that lures the strong down the path of oppression. Dragon-Takashi's philosophy is disqualified right out of the box.
As for Sealing, it's blatant manifest destiny colonialism (and yes, hypocrisy), paired with the power to effectively lobotomize who they choose. That's right out. That leaves the Pacifist Faction... And I see some warning signs there, too. There may not be an equivalency here, but the flaws in their thinking are going to be exposed over the next episodes, I'd bet on it. And the real story is going to come from Souya having to look at all this and make up his own mind about what sort of truth he should try and live by.
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2018-08-14, 21:36 | Link #143 | |
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2018-08-15, 07:14 | Link #144 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Adriatic Coast, Montenegro, Balkans
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This is a case of a cop becoming enraged by the excesses of a criminal group and going on a rampage murdering all the members not caring if they are guilty or not. In the end the cop will be arrested because while the majority might have been members they didn't deserve death. Proper procedure should have been observed. But that still wouldn't stop some calling this justice, putting a stop to these dangers to society. Many movies were made under this premise. Only here the scale is larger. Instead of organisations we have civilizations and Nebula seems to have put themselves in charge of policing the Galaxy and maintaining the order. The proper procedure with dangerous wild civilizations that would present a danger to others is to either reform them or neutralize their threat by jailing them/making sure they won't bother others.
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2018-08-15, 10:29 | Link #145 |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 39
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All I'm saying it's not hypocrisy. It's most certainly wrong, it's most certainly not moral, but to be a hypocrite you actually have to be doing the same thing that you accuse your opponent of.
If A is using X, to stop B from also doing X, that is hypocrisy. (although, in reality, it is what happens when authorities use violence to stop another's violence, is that also wrong?) However, in this case, A is using Y to stop B from doing X.... It is a false equivalence. |
2018-08-15, 11:52 | Link #146 | |
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I would not really call it hypocritical if they were, as 4th Dimension said, simply sealing them in, jailing them, locking them on their planet and blocking them from leaving. But that's not what they're doing. It was already established that the "sealing" takes away a crucial part of who and what you are, snuffing the fire in your heart. That's why I keep comparing it to lobotomizing. You're taking something from the person, cutting off their ability to feel passion or enthusiasm. There are plenty who would argue it's just as bad, if not worse, to do such a thing to someone against their will. And yes, given the level of force and the repugnancy of the action, there would be plenty who understandably and maybe correctly refer to this as hypocrisy. |
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2018-08-15, 12:39 | Link #147 | |||
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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It's also circular reasoning. Assuming that the situation is the same as criminals and police is exactly the kind of premise that's being put in doubt in the first place. You've arbitrarily decided that the Siriusians/humans are criminals based on standards that aren't applied to Nebula. This case the supposed "criminals" haven't even committed any crime but they're being "policed" by a group that (in your own analogy) has. Quote:
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We're talking about a double standard in their moral justification, not their methods.. Hypocrisy is not limited to one form only. I'll repeat myself: You can't generalise humanity to such a degree as to declare them violent but not apply that same standard to yourself. As far as track records go, humanity hasn't destroyed an entire planet yet, whilst Nebula has. That's a textbook definition of hypocrisy.
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Last edited by Haak; 2018-08-15 at 12:56. |
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2018-08-15, 13:48 | Link #148 | |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Age: 39
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It wasn't Nebula that destroyed planets, it was the Dragon. Are you going to hold an entire species accountable for the actions of one individual?
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If using some alien mumbo jumbo to change a person counts as violence, then you have to call using hypnosis/drugs/propaganda/all of the above, violence as well. Is blackmail also violence? Is coercion violence? (do this thing for me or I will fire you) Is calling people names on the internet violence? Things like those can change people as well. Where is the line drawn? Btw, it's fine if you still disagree. But if you want to somehow convince me or even call me "wrong", I'm going to need some detailed answers. |
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2018-08-15, 14:24 | Link #149 | |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Like I said: It's no good saying he was an anomaly. Nebula's argument itself is based upon a generalisation. If they don't apply that same generalisation to themselves then that is a textbook case of hypocrisy. Nebula seriously made the argument that they're responsible with power whilst humans aren't, after one of their own destroyed an entire planet. Even if you argue that we're more involved in the potential destruction of our own planet, it's still nowhere near as comparable as actually having done it. And to top it off Snoopy the Dog still had the gall to blame the Siriusians for the destruction when he was talking to Sensei on that stage scene in Episode 3.
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2018-08-15, 14:30 | Link #150 | |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
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You're going to have to explain how Nebula is making assumptions about the human race based on a single action of a single individual, because even a regular human being is going to be able to reach this conclusion just by looking at our entire history (or present day for that matter, where people prefer using their fists, mob pressure, or internet trolling, when they cannot win an argument with words). |
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2018-08-15, 15:06 | Link #151 | ||
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
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On a side note: If you look at our history, you'll actually find our biggest characteristic is progress. (and remember that Nebula is judging us on war-like tendencies, not our environmental record). And for the record, I could apply that same generalisation to Nebula if they indeed have a history of lobotomising whole planets (as is implied). But in any case i could also hold them accountable just from their track record with the Dragon. Sorry but the "single individual" excuse doesn't hold here. We're talking about the destruction of an entire planet. If Nebula thought the Dragon could be trusted with power then that's their responsibility (and also proves that they're not a good judge of character).
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2018-08-15, 15:37 | Link #152 | |
Born to ship
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And yes, plenty of things that don't cause physical harm can be just as much cruel and forceful. Plenty of other things aren't, but plenty of things are. Calling someone a name, even a cruel name that no one should say, probably wouldn't constitute violence. But using force to bypass a person's consent and take away a part of who they are probably would. Even more so since it's been established that they have the potential for Love as well as Power, but indications and conversations suggest that all potential for evolution is taken by this technique. Last edited by BWTraveller; 2018-08-15 at 18:00. |
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2018-08-15, 17:33 | Link #153 | |||
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Now it's not all darkness and gloom, hence the Pacifists thinking we could be reformed. But there is also plenty of bad stuff to pick from to make the argument about our essential incompatibility with Nebula's idea of peaceful universe. And we have committed crimes. Pretty much all of us have learned how to turn our eyes away from daily injustices happening in our world, and hell in case it's our side doing shit, there is plenty of cases one might base a case on that humanity in general tends towards being easily led astray or tacitly supporting bad stuff from lack of interest. Quote:
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2018-08-15, 18:33 | Link #154 | ||
Seishu's Ace
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The Sealing Faction are literally the dictionary definition of hypocrites. Among the other things they are.
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Last edited by Guardian Enzo; 2018-08-16 at 07:29. |
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2018-08-16, 05:53 | Link #156 | |||
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
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Again, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree on this one. Quote:
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And I want to state this for the record: I'm not arguing that the sealing faction are not antagonistic. Or not morally wrong. Or even not wrong in general. Or even justified in their behavior. Or anything of the sort. |
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2018-08-16, 07:28 | Link #157 | |
Seishu's Ace
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2018-08-16, 08:50 | Link #158 | |
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Actually, these guys remind me of Naoi from Angel Beats during his villainous start. Yuri was motivated to a significant degree by her resentment and regret over the memory of her little siblings being brutally murdered while she was powerless to stop it. It was painful, but it was something vital to who she was. Then Naoi comes along, grabs her, and uses his powers to reach in and try to overwrite that memory, completely erase the events from her heart so she'll have nothing left to hold her in limbo, even while she screamed that it wasn't real. The only difference here is that the mechanisms we'd seen to this point were dummies set up to give people a chance to fight back, and several of the people were able to break out and break the device assaulting them before it could finish the job. With the old man it was clear that the device would continue to bombard the victim with images and words as long as it remained operational. As I understood the words of the dog, the real thing is worldwide and designed so you can't escape or destroy it, you can only surrender. Ultimately, despite not literally affecting anything biologically, this technique reaches in, finds the most crucial parts of what make you you, and take it away, leaving an empty shell behind. I for one have a hard time calling that "nonviolent"; I'd call it something that goes beyond "violence" to such a level of violation that violence would be almost merciful in comparison. If you cannot see this, then yeah I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. But seriously how can you say a person was not harmed when they were crippled like that? I honestly cannot understand the logic behind such a statement. |
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