(L+CR) Darling in the Franxx

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's not how things work. It's really hard for kids who weren't loved to learn to care later on in their lives. And for her it's worse because she was treated like shit and tortured. It doesn't matter what she saw as a teenager. At this point she's already predisposed to not trust anyone. She has no reason to feel like she has to apologize to anyone and she's not gonna change unless someone actually makes the effort to help her change. And there's a chance it's already to late even for that. Maybe at this point all Hiro can do for her is to accept her as a monster and become a monster himself to be with her.

Feeling remorse isn't an acquired behavior. It's inherent. If she doesn't feel it, the best she can do is fake it. That latter part is of course learned.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Twi

They tried. Hiro tried. And she rejected it. You can extend an olive branch to help someone out, but if they don't take it then what's the point.

You make it seem like this is mathematics. Like if someone extent a hand to her, she should naturally respond in kind. Yeah, no. Things aren't that easy. She was treated like shit and she doesn't trust anyone now. It's gonna take a lot more than that for her to open up. And there's a change she won't open up at all. She has been hurt way too much.

It probably wold take something really drastic for her to open up. Remember how Mitsuru didn't want to listen to reason and Kokoro had to put her life on the line to make him listen? And Mitsuru wasn't nearly as hurt as 02.

Originally Posted by Dengar

Feeling remorse isn't an acquired behavior. It's inherent. If she doesn't feel it, the best she can do is fake it.

There's no way you can feel remorse if you don't feel empathy. And that's something you learn by interacting with others. But she was isolated, and by the time she started to interact with others, it was too late because she was already predisposed to not trust them.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

There's no way you can feel remorse if you don't feel empathy. And that's something you learn by interacting with others. But she was isolated, and by the time she started to interact with others, it was too late because she was already predisposed to not trust them.

....Empathy is inherent not only in human beings, but a lot of sentient life in general.

Not everything about being human is a learned behavior. If we didn't have certain built in characteristics we wouldn't have been able to thrive as a species.

[Twi]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

You make it seem like this is mathematics. Like if someone extent a hand to her, she should naturally respond in kind. Yeah, no. Things aren't that easy. She was treated like shit and she doesn't trust anyone now. It's gonna take a lot more than that for her to open up. And there's a change she won't open up at all. She has been hurt way too much.

It probably wold take something really drastic for her to open up. Remember how Mitsuru didn't want to listen to reason and Kokoro had to put her life on the line to make him listen? And Mitsuru wasn't nearly as hurt as 02.

It might not be that easy, but... well, then what? Should they keep trying and suffering because of it. She went nuts on them here after actively trying to kill Hiro the day prior. They can't feel safe around her when they're in a situation where they have to entrust their lives to one another.

You say that she needs something drastic to wake her up. Then this is it. Like she said, this is her punishment for her actions. Let this be her wake up call that its not her appearance, but her actions.

[Dengar]

Speaking of which, I never once said that she is beyond redemption. But she has to damn well earn it. I mean this is like Mitsuru. He was a jerk, but he's getting better now isn't he?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Dengar

....Empathy is inherent not only in human beings, but a lot of sentient life in general.

No it's not. It might look like that because you incorporate these things as you grow up. But there's nothing inherent about it. If you grew up in isolation you won't develop much empathy.

And I disagree she has to redeem herself. I don't think she does. In fact, she doesn't have to try to be human either. I think that's what she's gonna learn at the end. That she's fine the way she is. I bet Hiro will change to be with her instead.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No it's not. It might look like that because you incorporate these things as you grow up. But there's nothing inherent about it. If you grew up in isolation you won't develop much empathy.

While that's not entirely untrue it's also much more complicated than that. But fine, I'll correct myself in that while it is inherent (in most people) it's not always as well developed.

Besides, as I said. There were plenty of other decisions for 02 to have made from a purely pragmatic perspective. Social norms be damned.

[Kazu-kun]

One of my favorite shows this year was Violet Evergarden because it showed how hard it is to develop empathy and learn to care as an adult if you didn't learn these things when you were a child. In fact, we could make a lot of parallelisms between Violet and 02. Violet was lucky there were people that put a lot of effort into teaching her how to be human. And also she had a job that was perfect for that as well. 02 on the other hand is still in a toxic environment that keeps dragging her down.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

And I disagree she has to redeem herself. I don't think she does. In fact, she doesn't have to try to be human either. I think that's what she's gonna learn at the end. That she's fine the way she is. I bet Hiro will change to be with her instead.

I know I'm going to risk being accused of making another straw man, but I think it's important for me to illustrate how this sounds.

Because it sounds like what you're saying is that there is absolutely no problem with her gleefully beating the team to a pulp without provocation.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

One of my favorite shows this year was Violet Evergarden because it showed how hard it is to develop empathy and learn to care as an adult if you didn't learn these things when you were a child.

Okay so again: What she did wasn't just bad from a societal point of view. What she did was bad from a pragmatic point of view.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Because it sounds like what you're saying is that there is absolutely no problem with her gleefully beating the team to a pulp without provocation.

It's not that there isn't a problem. But the real problem is not that she beat them up. That's just a consequence. The real problem is that she doesn't trust anyone. That's the problem that should be rectified. But she can't learn to trust on her own, and it's not easy anyway.

Originally Posted by Dengar

What she did wasn't just bad from a societal point of view. What she did was bad from a pragmatic point of view.

That's irrelevant. It's like blaming a blind for not been able to see. It's pointless.

[HtwoN]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Okay so again: What she did wasn't just bad from a societal point of view. What she did was bad from a pragmatic point of view.

How can you determine something is good or bad without society?

Cannibalism is regarded as evil in the modern world, but some primitive tribes in the middle of nowhere might not think so.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by orion

But she admitted to setting up Hiro from the start. She does know some right and wrong.

That's a leap. Sure she admits she was using him and she might feel bad about that to some extent, but not so much because she knows it was the wrong thing to do. I don't think she knows that at all. But rather because she has come to care about him on a personal level. He's kinda similar to the darling in her memories after all. She even called him darling too. That's a big clue.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's irrelevant. It's like blaming a blind for not been able to see. It's pointless.

I don't blame blind people for not being able to see. I do blame them for walking into a wall though. That's completely unnecessary, even for someone who's blind. Especially someone who's been blind all their life.

Originally Posted by HtwoN

How can you determine something is good or bad without society?

Cannibalism is regarded as evil in the modern world, but some primitive tribes in the middle of nowhere might not think so.

Being violent towards people is incredibly likely to make those people treat you poorly. That's not a society thing, it's a nature thing.

[Kismet-chan]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Anyway, this was an absolutely amazing episode all around. The team standing up for their teammate, even though they might have overdone it a little. Then there's 02 reaping what she sows. There are some lines you do not cross, girl.

Originally Posted by Twi

So I'm left wondering... why are some people treating this like the end of the world and Ichigo is the spawn of the devil?

Zero Two didn't try to apologize to them. Not Hiro. To them. She openly admitted she didn't care about things like Teammates after Ichigo admitted she tried to welcome her in, which we've seen time and time again from the Beach Episode, and when she put her foot down as leader Nana had already arranged for her to be gone because Hiro can't ride with her with his yellow count going higher.

When she finally loses her patience, Goro is the one who gets backhanded into a window, yet he's the one trying to keep the peace. Goro and Kokoro, the two most empathetic people in the series and both in love (well, Goro with Ichigo anyway with Kokoro being possibly in love with Mitsuru) ultimately decide to let her go see him. And when he's escaped, she loses what little patience she had and believed that they tricked her, despite the fact they were obviously piecing it together, and promptly floored them.

Hiro comes in to see the downed bodies of his teammates, who has known longer than her, and about how she was calling humans weak. He called her exactly what she was acting like when she revealed she did all that because she didn't get her way, a monster. Not how she looked or her blood, but because she had just hurt everyone. He wasn't happy about it considering he did like her, but he couldn't keep indulging her either and Ichigo stopped him from going after given what just happened.

That had gotten to be a really unhealthy relationship. Some separation will do them some good. As for the kiss... what about it?

Ichigo never said she loved Goro and her interests have largely been about Hiro, who was in a relationship that left him with bruises and he could have been turning into someone who just kicked the collective ass of their group because she wasn't having her way?

I feel bad for Goro, who the series seems to want to suffer, but other than that Zero Two is in the wrong here and it hurts me to say that because I love her.

I actually had this whole thing I was going to jump into for my thoughts on this episode, but if you combine Twi and Dengar's thoughts, that pretty much sums up where I'm at on this episode.

Several characters didn't handle things as best they could, but Zero Two was the worst... Though, to be clear, I'm not saying this makes her a bad character. I love that her abusive and manipulative actions finally had consequences. I love that they showed us she's aware of what she's done, and she does feel guilt over it (at least towards Hiro). And yes, she is unstable in many ways. You would be too after years of torture. But she is not some force of nature who had zero agency in what she actively chose to do up to that point. This has already been argued into the ground in this thread, but I think this episode really solidifies it because of Hiro's reaction to her in the medical ward. I love Zero Two to death and I desperately want her to have a happy ending, but she was completely in the wrong for what she did in that fucking room.

As for Ichigo and the rest of the team? I understand where they were coming from and the support they were showing Hiro was, in and of itself, good. But they went way overboard. (The only saving graces being Goro and Kokoro.) And sure, it's tropey. It's messy. It's not a good look. But I didn't see it as bad writing at all, personally. People do this. They fail to communicate and jump to conclusions and are incredibly selfish. There's only but so much you can expect from throwing a bunch of very different adults into a group, let alone children. Don't get me wrong, I truly feel for Goro... but Ichigo doesn't really owe him anything. Could she have been civil about properly turning him down just as he was civil about putting his heart out there for her? Absolutely. It would've been polite. But was she obligated to? Nope.

I'm actually a bit worried because I don't have a clear idea of what will occur from here on out. I didn't think we'd get to the Grand Crevasse this fast. I didn't think we'd be seeing the Nines again this fast. Hell, I didn't think Zero Two would leave that fast.

I just want all of these dumb kids to be okay.

(Except for Nine Alpha. He's a dick and he can burn for all I care. )

[Dengar]

I can totally agree that 9α is a worse person than 02.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I don't blame blind people for not being able to see. I do blame them for walking into a wall though. That's completely unnecessary, even for someone who's blind. Especially someone who's been blind all their life.

You're missing the point of the analogy.

Originally Posted by Dengar

Being violent towards people is incredibly likely to make those people treat you poorly. That's not a society thing, it's a nature thing.

The reaction is natural, but you need to live in society to become aware of it and incorporate it into your value system. Even animals become violent and antisocial when they grow in isolation. This has been tested with chimps. You need to interact with others in a positive way during your childhood in order to become a socially-functional person. There's no way around this.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Twi

Oh, yeah. Nine Alpha was enjoying it. He's the one who told Ichigo after all.

yeah basically he did a "domino effect" using ichigo for his purpose to get back zero 2, while he did not planned everything, for sure all the discord and losing trusth was really as "he planned' he clear saw ichigo feelings toward zero 2 partner and used it for hims own means which is get back zero 2 and to be honest probably he did not act alone and the old fart shirt concil probably backed him, and the nine team "being there" was part of the plans, now we are getting what they wanted, for sure the elite team being "in the lab" not was just a coincidence and was planned.

[Twi]

Originally Posted by HtwoN

How can you determine something is good or bad without society?

Cannibalism is regarded as evil in the modern world, but some primitive tribes in the middle of nowhere might not think so.

Cannibalism is generally regarded as bad because not only the medical issues that it entails, but in general most people don't like the thought of someone eating them. It's seen as something lower than what most animals will do.

Those primitive tribes might have a reason for cannibalism though. Some might see it as partaking in the strength of their opponent or something more akin to Shamanism. Or they might really need to eat and you have the corpses of enemies or the dead. The reason for the cannibalism is the crux of the issue.

Zero Two's actions, in relevance to the discussion, is that pragmatically speaking, she made things harder for herself. She found someone who was willing to give her everything he could to make her happy and people around her who were willing to welcome her, but she called them fodder and tried actively to kill the one pilot she's been able to ride with multiple times.

I really don't even think she knew he was turning into a monster until Ichigo told her since Nine Alpha put that thought into her head and she overhead Nana and Hachi.


@ Kazu-kun
You've give reasons for why she might be doing all of this and I agree that context behind the acts matters, though you lean more heavily than I do in one direction, so I'll ask you how would you recommend she fix this situation? We can go back and forth on the subject of why she did it, but what can she do to resolve the matter of what has happened?

[Ligerleon89]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

yeah basically he did a "domino effect" using ichigo for his purpose to get back zero 2, while he did not planned everything, for sure all the discord and losing trusth was really as "he planned' he clear saw ichigo feelings toward zero 2 partner and used it for hims own means which is get back zero 2 and to be honest probably he did not act alone and the old fart shirt concil probably backed him, and the nine team "being there" was part of the plans, now we are getting what they wanted, for sure the elite team being "in the lab" not was just a coincidence and was planned.

...I don't doubt it...After the way Alpha Nine was look at those two. I know we'll be seeing him again.

[endarion88]

Originally Posted by Ligerleon89

...I don't doubt it...After the way Alpha Nine was look at those two. I know we'll be seeing him again.

i'm betting for a reason or an other

when hiro will finally decide to go look for 02 he will be her NEW darling