[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[Kitsu]

Spoiler for nanjo:

FakeNanjo is also a good possibility because he isn't a member of the family and isn't known by them beforehand. So they wouldn't notice if he acts strange. Also it would explain why Kinzo is still alive. I don't think a real doctor would give such a diagnosis like he only has 3 month to live and then the patient almost lives a whole year more. Maybe he isn't a doctor or did a fail diagnosis on purpose. the only one who knows him is Kinzo himself and he seems so self concerned and only kinda cares about Beatrice that he wouldn't notice the change maybe.

RealNanjo was killed before he went to Rokkenjima. Maybe someone knew it and took it as a chance and killed him so could go to Rokkenjima unnoticed (we know only family, servants or invited guests and Battler himself says that Nanjo is seemingly the only one who isn't family nor servant who is allowed on Rokkenjima). So everytime we hear, Nanjo is dead doesn't mean the Nanjo we think of is dead...it would open a lot of possibilities.

But still...what about Nanjos son who was mentioned in the first game? Wouldn't he notice?

But am I the only one which kinda bugs the whole Ange thing? The whole time the cousins always say: "It's great for ALL cousins to be together" and such things. Also they never mention Ange. She seems kinda nonexistent to them. Even her brother doesn't talk about her. Only in the beginning of the first episode she was mentioned. I thin even Kinzo forget her in his rant about how unworthy everyone is (he mentioned Maria...so i don't think he would leave out Ange)

Edit: Wait antoher thing to point out...in the first episode Kanon called the cousins for dinner. But instead of using the phone he run to the guest house. That would suggest that the phones didn't work that time (6:00 pm) and Kanon knew it

[hodil]

Spoiler for Kanon:

OMG... i just realised that o0 i even went to rewatch it Kitsu, i realised something.. If Kanon(Oct 4) went all the way to call the cousins because he knew the telephones were not working. Then why would Kanon(Oct 5) picked up the receiver and tried calling Gohda at 6am... this is veeery suspicious... Sounds like Episode 2. does two kanons exist?!

[Kitsu]

Spoiler for Kanon:

Yup, that what I thought, too. And i don't think it's just a minor mistake or something. Battler pointed it out. Something about going against common sense. But two Kanons? I don't know, okay we didn't get a red truth in the first game that said "There are only 18 people on Rokkenjima" But the uninvited person is a Kanon twin thingy? I don't think that's the case. A split personality? Nah, I don't like that, even though it would fit him because he seems really having serious problems with himself and Shannon suggested something about a not so happy past.
"in the time he needed comfort, he was told that he was just furniture" or something like that i think.

[hodil]

Spoiler for Kanon:

Episode 2 suggested a strong hint that Kanon was malicious. Or made to appear Malicious. Could it really be that there are two Kanons? An imposter and a real one? Oh crap.. i think its a minor overlook? no.. at the same time it doesnt feel like its minor... Damn.. i hope its not a Sonozaki trick..

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for Kanon:

Err you are looking too much into it imho, two kanons would only make things harder to explain. As for the reason Kanon went personally to guest house to call the cousins, it is probably because as a servant it was his duty. See it as because he wanted to escort them (even if it wasn't needed) or to provide any kind of assistance the boys and girls would need. That could not be done by telephone. Maybe it's me but for a servant to wake up his little master by telephone is kinda rude...

I am more intrigued by the "Ange" problem. It is quite true that she is rarely mentioned. However since Gohda says that he was used to prepare dinner for 18 people on previous family meetings, we should assume that Ange was there. Why is that George, Jessica and Maria do not talk about her?

[Kitsu]

Spoiler for Kanon:

I believe that he could get very aggresive and was a bit emotional instable, he couldn't stay calm in his conversion with Jessica about their relationship, also I think it was written that he started crying two times or so in episode 2. But which kinda doesn't work with his image in episode 1, where he blankly stared at Shannon's corpse without even crying single tear. For me he is a logical disaster sometimes, he isn't stable. A teacher of mine suggested that he is a case of borderline personality dissorder or even a split personality. But I don't like it.
Both things I don't like but would explain his absurd different way of actions. But wasn't it said in red that Kanon died in Jessicas Room? Then he wouldn't even be able of appearing in front of the servants in episode 2. But maybe I'm wrong. Furthermore i wish I knew if Kanon had a really bad case of spiderphobia, if that's the case I could understand that whole." I have a web!! Fear me!" thingy... But maybe that was all an illusion But I think Jan-Poo could be right, I'll keep it in mind though.

Jup, the Ange thing is really strange, I mean at least Battler should talk about her or mention her. George, jessica and Maria don't even ask how she is doing and where she is. Thats really strange

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for Kanon:

Uhm ok, the truth is i'm harbouring since a long time a very crazy theory, but i never had the courage to tell it, because it's simply too insane. Anyway i'm going to say it right now, please prepare yourself and don't panic...

Spoiler for Are you ready?:

Spoiler for Are you really really ready?:

Spoiler for This is the last warning, it's not too late!:

Kanon and Shannon are the same person

[hodil]

Spoiler for Ange:

Ange would only be 6 i wonder how Gohda would have prepared her meal. Im kinda messed up about Ange, From a witch's point of view, Ange was transported back to the past by Bern. From the scientific point of view, Ange ended her life. But why did they barely mention her? hmm Ange was only 6, its easy to neglect her *whispers* i sometimes forget that i had nephews. And two. Its their first time in 6/8 (err i cant rmb) years seeing Battler, they would definately be more interested in him. Of course this problem may or may not be a coincidence. But i think u guys are saying that.... Ange is nonexistent.

Spoiler for Kanon & Shanon:

That made my day.. LOL .. ewww.. What did george do.. Omg.. if the personality disorder exists.. its possible.. but how on earth would they 2 actually appear at the same time... unless.. 2 Kanon existed!! ewww forget it...

[Kitsu]

@Jan-Poo

Okay..that's alittle bit screwed up, but kinda logical and kinda not.
Kanon is a split personalty of Shannon which stands up against Natsuhi and Eva for her, but that would defintly not explain the Jessica/Kanon thing...that would be a bit to screwed up wouldn't it? And others can see him, too so thats totally a no-go. Also if Shannon or Kanon impost for the other one (you know what I mean) What about for example Kumasawa she talked to them the same time that wouldn't be possible. But it would explain ..."Kanon is dead" of course he is dead because he never existent.

Spoiler for Ange:

I don't think nonexistent is the right word. But it bugs me...i mean of course battler is a little bit more interesting but Jessica would have at least asked at the harbor where Ange was. Also Kinzo leaved her out in his rant...that's why it is strange

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by hodil

Spoiler for Kanon & Shanon:

That made my day.. LOL .. ewww.. What did george do.. Omg.. if the personality disorder exists.. its possible.. but how on earth would they 2 actually appear at the same time... unless.. 2 Kanon existed!! ewww forget it...

Spoiler for Kanon and shannon:

Do they appear at the same time? IIRC they never appear both at the same time in front of Battler, it's either Kanon or Shannon. When they do appear together most of the time they are alone, which is quite suspicious to me.
Also try to remember the scenes when Shannon gets scolded by Natsuhi. Kanon is supposed to be there watching the whole scene, however he's like a sort of ninja since Natsuhi never notices his presence. As soon as Natsuhi leaves the room there you have Shannon and Kanon make their conversation.

Other situations where they appear together are usually related to some "fantasy" happening, (the battle against the stakes is a good example) however for that very reason they are not reliable. They do appear at the same time in front of Genji and Kinzo, however Kinzo and Genji are suspicious in the first place.

Shannon a Kanon have the same hair colour and they are very similar in appearance, they also have the same age and the same height (assuming ryukishi drawing are in proportion). Kanon is effeminate enough to be either a girl in disguise or to pass as a girl with some make up.

the number of people on rokkenjima is not a certainity however at least 15 are presents, because 15 is the highest number of people seen in the same room with battler present. That happens during the dinner. The whole family is there (except kinzo), plus there's Nanjo, Gohda, Kumasawa and Shannon. The only people left are Kinzo, Genji and Kanon. So if we want to state that people on rokkenjima are less than 18 we can only remove one or more of those three. Kinzo is a logical assumption, but what if we want remove one more person? Then only kanon/shannon comes to my mind.

Alas there is a major flaw in this theory. While Kanon and Shannon never appear at the same time in front of Battler, their dead bodies do. Or rather we see one of them alive and the other dead, such in episode1 first twilight.

EDIT for Kitsu

Spoiler for Kanon:

I don't think Kanon or Shannon never exist, rather one of them died some time ago, triggering the multiple personality disorder in the other. If you have played Resident Evil Code Veronica you've got a good example of what i mean.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Spoiler for Ange:

I don't think nonexistent is the right word. But it bugs me...i mean of course battler is a little bit more interesting but Jessica would have at least asked at the harbor where Ange was. Also Kinzo leaved her out in his rant...that's why it is strange

Spoiler for Ange:

She's 6... the last time Kinzo saw her she was probably 5, so it'd probably be hard to find something to complain about. I suppose he could have found something seeing that he's pretty harsh, but then again I don't really know how he reacts to really young children. Maria is 9 and acts like she's younger, so that might irk Kinzo. He let Shannon work there when she was only 6... maybe he has a soft spot for really young children? O.o
Ange also could have just been really shy and introverted as a child, so it would have been even harder to find something to complain about her... and since she would be so young, being really timid and quiet wouldn't really upset anyone since it's better than her being obnoxious and bratty. ^^;
Still though... he even found something about George to complain about and he's a pretty well rounded guy... and his opinion of Rosa seems to be a bit better than his opinion of Maria. Birthing the child of a nobody is better than having a face that's obscene to the eye... or maybe they're both just as bad. ._.;

I get what you mean though, they kind of act as if Ange didn't exist. It bothered me too when I read it. I suppose it was written like that because eventually it would have ruined the moment when Ange finally appeared 12 years later. Like reading "Hmmm Ange isn't here...", "Why doesn't Ange have a spot at the table?", "Looks like all of the cousins are here... except for Ange!" would eventually lead the reader into expecting her to appear more so. ^^;

I can't really see why they wouldn't be as excited to see her though, families usually make bigger deals with the young children rather than the older ones. Well that's what I thought at least. I mean I get Battler's reappearance being a big deal, but Ange's absence should probably be mentioned a bit more just to show that they at least know she exists.

[Jan-Poo]

he even found something about George to complain about and he's a pretty well rounded guy

I remember that Kinzo's negative remark toward George bothered me at first, but after episode3 i came to understand what Kinzo actually meant. It becomes very clear when you understand his way to educate his children and in particular Krauss.

"George doesn't have what it takes to be a man".

Once you understand what is a "man" according to Kinzo, you will admit that in fact George does lack the requirements to be one.

Actually i just remembered that someone said that George is kinda like a "carebear", well in most competitive PvP MMORPG "carebear" is used as an offense.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I remember that Kinzo's negative remark toward George bothered me at first, but after episode3 i came to understand what Kinzo actually meant. It becomes very clear when you understand his way to educate his children and in particular Krauss.

"George doesn't have what it takes to be a man".

Once you understand what is a "man" according to Kinzo, you will admit that in fact George does lack the requirements to be one.

Actually i just remembered that someone said that George is kinda like a "carebear", well in most competitive PvP MMORPG "carebear" is used as an offense.

Ahh I suppose I understand... I played EP3 and pretty much missed that, but I guess I can understand what Kinzo meant now that you mention it.

I happen to like carebears though.

[Kitsu]

Spoiler for "Shannon&Kanon:

Oka~y...lol ... sorry but the sentence with a ninja was just funny. i can totally imagine that one..But don't forget that he is furniture and is taught to be not noticed. Both of them appeared in front of Kumasawa. (okay she isn't the most unsuspicious person because of Virgillia) But then what about Shannon being dead, we saw her bloody corpse and Kanon was there too and even faught the culprit. Another flaw is..okay..I didn't want to say..but..Shannon's boobs it's impossible to bind them to such small breast that wouldn't be noticed and Kanon wouldn't be able to ehm make them up, Battler touched them didn't he? He would defiantly noticed if they were fake. So this possibilty is impossible.
Okay it would explain Kanons missing corpse in Episode 2....but...
A scenario which could be possible except for the thing about the first twilight.
Shannon/kanon is an orphan which had a little brother/older sister. Everyone of the family dies and she is traumatized and creates a illusion of her younger brother (oh so drama) in her dead and the time she comes to Rokkkenjima she dresses up like him and lives sometimes as Kanon and sometime as Shannon. Kumasawa who was stated to be like a mother for her/him, finds out and plays along....strange isn't it..but seriously three years and no one finds out? No~. Or Kanon and Shannon existed and kind of used each other for an replacement of family and then one of them dies on Rokkenjima. The other one can't bear it and gets a personality dissorder but..seriously someone except Kumasawa would freaking notice it. What about Jessica! She's there the whole time and is all lovey-dovey for Kanon such a drastically chance won't go unnoticed by her. And where did the corpse go? Burned? Also Episode 3, first twilight two corpses. Yup i played RE

@Ange thingy
even her own mother doesn't talk about her....that is something which is really strange.

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for episode1:

Shannon's boobs it's impossible to bind them to such small breast that wouldn't be noticed and Kanon wouldn't be able to ehm make them up, Battler touched them didn't he?

A thanx for bringing this up since it is related to the "George doesn't have what it takes to be a man" discussion. Anyway Battler didn't touch Shannon boobs, because Jessica stopped him. What is "scary" about this scene is that George was there! What if Jessica didn't act? Would have George really silently watched his little cousin fondle his future wife's breast?

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Spoiler for episode1:

A thanx for bringing this up since it is related to the "George doesn't have what it takes to be a man" discussion. Anyway Battler didn't touch Shannon boobs, because Jessica stopped him. What is "scary" about this scene is that George was there! What if Jessica didn't act? Would have George really silently watched his little cousin fondle his future wife's breast?

Spoiler:

Wow... that is odd. George should have put a stop to it before Battler even got close to her.

[Kitsu]

Spoiler for Carebear attack:

He looked a bit scary...his glasses. Everytime he doesn't like things or he is embarrassed they get steamed and we can't see his expressions clearly. It's something that bugged me for almost the whole series... it reminds a bit of the cat like eyes in Higurashi. He always give me the creeps and reminds me how dangerous "carebears" can become....I was beaten up by one a long time ago....the hospital sure was nice.


But I think if Kinzo knew that he proposed he would have changed his way of thinking a bit.


Aw~ sorry Battler didn't touch her boobs that was only Manga-verse. BTW in the Manga-verse Ange and Battler aren't even in the hierarchy. It's told like this:
"George, seventh of the hierarchy" then a pic of Battler and then a switch to Maria "Ninth on the hierarchy" strange..okay the seats were a little bit suspicious but that on...nah it's just the manga

[nipaah]

hi there...

I have just a little (maybe stupid) question. This question/fact is all the time in my head when i think of Umineko and i dont understand that, maybe someone can help me out and can give an explination:

Spoiler for :

The thing is that Battler exist in the Meta-World and on the island every game. And every game he tries to deny beatrices existenz (yeah, everyone knows that^^), but actually he can just give up, because he sees the ultimative magic from beatrice, the repeat of the two tragic days. Thats maybe the best magic she could use, but he never denies that , no, he and beato also never discuss this incontrovertible fact. Thats why my head goes boom when i think of it. Is there a logically explination for this or is battler just stupid, 'cause i dont get that...

Thx 4 ur help =)
(and sry for my bad english =/ )

[crazysjd89]

Spoiler for Shannon and Kanon:

However, how would you explain both Shannon and Kanon's corpse in Episode 3, then? You said one of them "died years ago", however, if that were the case, there would be obvious deterioration of the corpse.

[Kitsu]

Originally Posted by nipaah

hi there...

I have just a little (maybe stupid) question. This question/fact is all the time in my head when i think of Umineko and i dont understand that, maybe someone can help me out and can give an explination:

Spoiler for :

The thing is that Battler exist in the Meta-World and on the island every game. And every game he tries to deny beatrices existenz (yeah, everyone knows that^^), but actually he can just give up, because he sees the ultimative magic from beatrice, the repeat of the two tragic days. Thats maybe the best magic she could use, but he never denies that , no, he and beato also never discuss this incontrovertible fact. Thats why my head goes boom when i think of it. Is there a logically explination for this or is battler just stupid, 'cause i dont get that...

Thx 4 ur help =)
(and sry for my bad english =/ )

It was never explained and bugged me in the beginning. But then I ignored it and now I have a a bad explanation, he just denies witches in the "real" world because he can't accept the fact that his family was killed by a witch. Meta-Battler maybe thinks that this is a kinda afterlife or something like that I dunno

@crazyjsd89

I also argued with that one...It is just no possible in some ways