AnimeSuki Forums

Demi. · 2010-02-17, 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushi

Lack of combat experience?

Before Nanoha, Fate's only opponents had been the Jewel Seed monsters. While they may be challenging, they don't seem to be all that threatening to nine year old novice mages. Going up against another mage (once Nanoha gets her act together) was something she wasn't quite prepared to handle, perhaps.

Yes, had Fate known all of Nanoha's moves, it probably wouldn't have been so one-sided. Though they were both inexperienced vs. other mages...Fate made a big mistake trying to match her with magic. And once she used her ultimate attack, all it did was multiply the deadliness of STB.

Quote:

Objectively, keeping close is a good strategy. Forcing Nanoha on the defensive means she can't use her more powerful attacks. However, it doesn't mean Nanoha is screwed. We all think SLB when we say Nanoha, but what about Divine Shooter? Two or three of those cast around Fate when she gets close, and suddenly Fate is the one on the defensive.

I didn't say Fate would rape her, but Fate has the advantage in close-range, I think. If Fate is totally set on using close-range, I'm not sure how much time Nanoha would have to fire Divine Shooter. And when she does, Fate is fast enough to avoid. I think Fate's biggest mistake was using her ultimate move. Though it seemed like a great idea, it really only backfired on her. Regardless, I think Fate could match Nanoha, if not have the advantage, in a close-range battle.

Keroko · 2010-02-17, 15:28

Debatable, she could handle Vita in close combat if you recall (well, once they got their powerup anyway). Fending her off until she got a better vantage point, then blasting away at Vita. Same basic principle could be used against Fate.

If we're talking Nanoha staying in close combat, then yes Fate would win. If Nanoha attempts to regain the upper ground though, the battle could still go either way.

Demi. · 2010-02-17, 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

Debatable, she could handle Vita in close combat if you recall (well, once they got their powerup anyway). Fending her off until she got a better vantage point, then blasting away at Vita. Same basic principle could be used against Fate.

If we're talking Nanoha staying in close combat, then yes Fate would win. If Nanoha attempts to regain the upper ground though, the battle could still go either way.

And that's all I was trying to point out. That Fate is capable of winning, not that she will win.

Keroko · 2010-02-17, 15:39

True. Objectively speaking they are an even match, though in the movie I'd give the advantage to Fate due to the lack of time for Nanoha to catch up.

Still, in the end story > objective analysis.

leodamine · 2010-02-17, 16:09

They're both the same rank mages, so it's an even match. My guess is that if they were to ever fight again the writers would make it a double KO and have them both win/lose.

Keroko · 2010-02-17, 16:13

They actually did this several times now. A's manga final battle, StrikerS manga final battle, Nanoha/Signum fight. Don't want to upset the fans of the losing side, after all.

I still say Signum won that last fight though.

Rising Dragon · 2010-02-17, 16:14

So instead, the writers give us down-right frightening Nanoha vs. Signum matches.

EDIT: How many times am I gonna get ninja'd today?

Keroko · 2010-02-17, 16:15

Yes. And we need more of those.

Nya~n · 2010-02-17, 16:21

you also forget the key element in a climatic fight scene in any series - Nanoha's the main character.

Though, 4th wall breaking asides, to make it fair, Fate was getting beaten down before that fight scene. Nanoha had better form.

RadiantBeam · 2010-02-17, 16:34

Also, to be fair, Fate had just lost her emotional support in Arf, so she was already deeply rattled from that before she even fought Nanoha. Nanoha more or less had the advantage before the fight even started.

Keroko · 2010-02-17, 16:55

Add to that she was largely exhausted already when the fight began, and it's a wonder she even held out as long as she did.

Rising Dragon · 2010-02-17, 17:24

Just goes to show: women fight dirty. Especially Nanoha. She corners you when you're tired and shaken, holds you in place and beats the snot out of you.

No offense to the female posters intended. ^^;

Arkeus · 2010-02-17, 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

Add to that she was largely exhausted already when the fight began, and it's a wonder she even held out as long as she did.

she was?

Wasn't the fight a time later on when she wasn't *that* exhausted?

Rising Dragon · 2010-02-17, 20:23

Checking back, Arkeus is right. The final battle between Nanoha and Fate was a separate event. Before that, they had stopped the last of the Jewel Seeds and then Precia attacked... Arf went after her for that and was beaten. Once Arf recovered, she and Nanoha and Yuuno went after Fate for a final match.

Demi. · 2010-02-17, 20:58

Precia does screw with her concentration though. She calls out to Fate except she makes a mistake and calls Fate "Alicia" And then Fate replies with, "Alicia? I'm Fate, mother" - During the final battle, no less.

RadiantBeam · 2010-02-17, 21:27

So emotionally, at least, Fate was at a big disadvantage when the fight began. She wasn't as calm and focused as Nanoha was.

Estavali · 2010-02-17, 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushi

Lack of combat experience?

Before Nanoha, Fate's only opponents had been the Jewel Seed monsters. While they may be challenging, they don't seem to be all that threatening to nine year old novice mages. Going up against another mage (once Nanoha gets her act together) was something she wasn't quite prepared to handle, perhaps.

Hmm, I wouldn't say that Fate's only opponents up to then consisted only Jewel Seed monsters. If anything, the Movie manga does suggests that Precia did sent her out for other errands as well, errands that should see enough combat for Arf to comment that "there isn't any magic user who can rival Fate as she is now". Familiar bias, no doubt, but it serves its purpose in suggesting that Fate has gotten into fights with other magi before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demi.

Precia does screw with her concentration though. She calls out to Fate except she makes a mistake and calls Fate "Alicia" And then Fate replies with, "Alicia? I'm Fate, mother" - During the final battle, no less.

Hmm, unless the movie deviates from the original series at this point, it's not really Precia's fault. Fate merely recalled a fragment of Alicia's memory, and morever we can't really say when that happened too. It could have happened a long time ago before the final duel and we are shown that simply to inform us that, hey, something's not quite as it seems here, why's Precia calling Fate Alicia?

Demi. · 2010-02-17, 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estavali

Hmm, unless the movie deviates from the original series at this point, it's not really Precia's fault. Fate merely recalled a fragment of Alicia's memory, and morever we can't really say when that happened too. It could have happened a long time ago before the final duel and we are shown that simply to inform us that, hey, something's not quite as it seems here, why's Precia calling Fate Alicia?

That scene does deviate, based on the spoiler content Iluna wrote after watching the movie.

Fragments of past are being shown as Fate and Nanoha are having their final battle too. And Iluna states that because of this, Fate wasn't focused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluna

During the final encounter with Nanoha, Fate had a reminiscene about her moments with Pressea until Pressea calls her Aricia. Which distracts Fate from the fight.

You're right, at that time she wasn't even suppose to know who she is because Fate mentioned this line in the movie as well.

Fate "Aricia? I'm not Aricia, mother, I'm Fate"

Come to think about it, I just check ep.11 of the TV series and it has this as well. Except that she reminiscene about that BEFORE the fight starts. Hence that particular change has to be fixed a little.

And as well Fate did scream for her mother, and Aricia when Pressea falls to her death.

Nightengale · 2010-02-17, 21:49

I'm not going to dip my fingers into the Fate/Nanoha pie, since it was very circumstantial. Nanoha was in her befriending mood, Fate's all emotionally ;_; and undoubtedly moved slightly by Nanoha's perseverance. Fate had the head-start, but we cannot say for sure that what little Nanoha has gained wasn't sufficient. Plus I'm more inclined into believing that we are supposed to be assuming that by the end of it, they were even. Any differences is marginal, subject to very high variables and can lean one way or another, looking at how their combat took place.

And super slowpoke on the earlier Yuuno factor, but we did not exactly see Yuuno being anything of a 'teacher' even in the original series. The most he was used for is just exposition ferret, explaining how magic works the first and 2nd time, and well... being the animal mascot for Nanoha and being back-up in fights. Just like the supposed movie, I'd argue that if we looked at it solely through what we visually comprehend of S1, Raising Heart is the teacher that helped Nanoha for image training ( shooting cans ), and Yuuno never was one in the slightest ( the one time he seemed to play teacher, he was more amazed at how Nanoha didn't need any of his advice to start RH working ). But we know this to not be true, due to the timegaps between events where supplementary material covered more of Yuuno's role, where Yuuno helped Nanoha grasped the foundation and fundamentals of magic, as well as flying.

Mushi · 2010-02-17, 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estavali

Hmm, I wouldn't say that Fate's only opponents up to then consisted only Jewel Seed monsters. If anything, the Movie manga does suggests that Precia did sent her out for other errands as well, errands that should see enough combat for Arf to comment that "there isn't any magic user who can rival Fate as she is now". Familiar bias, no doubt, but it serves its purpose in suggesting that Fate has gotten into fights with other magi before.

Ah, ok. I wasn't aware of that. From reading some of the other comments here, about the final battle, it sounds like there were a number of things going on that had an effect on Fate's ability to fight.

View Poll Results: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha The MOVIE 1st - rating
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2010-02-17, 16:09	Link #805
leodamine Divine Akuma Join Date: Aug 2008	They're both the same rank mages, so it's an even match. My guess is that if they were to ever fight again the writers would make it a double KO and have them both win/lose. __________________ I wish I had a cool quote to put here

2010-02-17, 16:14	Link #807
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	So instead, the writers give us down-right frightening Nanoha vs. Signum matches. EDIT: How many times am I gonna get ninja'd today? __________________

2010-02-17, 16:21	Link #809
Nya~n umbrella moe~♥ Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: huh wha-?	you also forget the key element in a climatic fight scene in any series - Nanoha's the main character. Though, 4th wall breaking asides, to make it fair, Fate was getting beaten down before that fight scene. Nanoha had better form. __________________

2010-02-17, 17:24	Link #812
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Just goes to show: women fight dirty. Especially Nanoha. She corners you when you're tired and shaken, holds you in place and beats the snot out of you. No offense to the female posters intended. ^^; __________________

2010-02-17, 15:28	Link #802
Keroko Adeptus Animus Author Join Date: Jan 2007 Age: 36	Debatable, she could handle Vita in close combat if you recall (well, once they got their powerup anyway). Fending her off until she got a better vantage point, then blasting away at Vita. Same basic principle could be used against Fate. If we're talking Nanoha staying in close combat, then yes Fate would win. If Nanoha attempts to regain the upper ground though, the battle could still go either way.

2010-02-17, 15:39	Link #804
Keroko Adeptus Animus Author Join Date: Jan 2007 Age: 36	True. Objectively speaking they are an even match, though in the movie I'd give the advantage to Fate due to the lack of time for Nanoha to catch up. Still, in the end story > objective analysis.

2010-02-17, 16:13	Link #806
Keroko Adeptus Animus Author Join Date: Jan 2007 Age: 36	They actually did this several times now. A's manga final battle, StrikerS manga final battle, Nanoha/Signum fight. Don't want to upset the fans of the losing side, after all. I still say Signum won that last fight though.

2010-02-17, 16:15	Link #808
Keroko Adeptus Animus Author Join Date: Jan 2007 Age: 36	Yes. And we need more of those.

2010-02-17, 16:55	Link #811
Keroko Adeptus Animus Author Join Date: Jan 2007 Age: 36	Add to that she was largely exhausted already when the fight began, and it's a wonder she even held out as long as she did.

2010-02-17, 20:23	Link #814
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Checking back, Arkeus is right. The final battle between Nanoha and Fate was a separate event. Before that, they had stopped the last of the Jewel Seeds and then Precia attacked... Arf went after her for that and was beaten. Once Arf recovered, she and Nanoha and Yuuno went after Fate for a final match. __________________

2010-02-17, 20:58	Link #815
Demi. Ass connoisseur Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Florida Age: 37	Precia does screw with her concentration though. She calls out to Fate except she makes a mistake and calls Fate "Alicia" And then Fate replies with, "Alicia? I'm Fate, mother" - During the final battle, no less. __________________

2010-02-17, 21:49	Link #819
Nightengale ~Night of Gales~ Author Join Date: Dec 2005	I'm not going to dip my fingers into the Fate/Nanoha pie, since it was very circumstantial. Nanoha was in her befriending mood, Fate's all emotionally ;_; and undoubtedly moved slightly by Nanoha's perseverance. Fate had the head-start, but we cannot say for sure that what little Nanoha has gained wasn't sufficient. Plus I'm more inclined into believing that we are supposed to be assuming that by the end of it, they were even. Any differences is marginal, subject to very high variables and can lean one way or another, looking at how their combat took place. And super slowpoke on the earlier Yuuno factor, but we did not exactly see Yuuno being anything of a 'teacher' even in the original series. The most he was used for is just exposition ferret, explaining how magic works the first and 2nd time, and well... being the animal mascot for Nanoha and being back-up in fights. Just like the supposed movie, I'd argue that if we looked at it solely through what we visually comprehend of S1, Raising Heart is the teacher that helped Nanoha for image training ( shooting cans ), and Yuuno never was one in the slightest ( the one time he seemed to play teacher, he was more amazed at how Nanoha didn't need any of his advice to start RH working ). But we know this to not be true, due to the timegaps between events where supplementary material covered more of Yuuno's role, where Yuuno helped Nanoha grasped the foundation and fundamentals of magic, as well as flying. __________________ *Night~and~Gale: ~ The Final Mythology of the Man who Defied Destiny.* The sleeping lion shall awaken beyond the depths of time, crossing ten billion lights, come to Terra.