Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

[karice67]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

For the moment, I'd rather believe our protagonists, i.e. Chaos, who do not seem to think that NUNS dropped a bomb on the Windermerans seven years ago. I would rather trust the people who are defending against the aggressors who use mind-control tech to take away the free will of billions of people and commit warcrimes and acts of terrorism to get to their goals.

But where do Chaos (and Mirage) get their information from? NUNS/the NUN government. If they did indeed set off the dimension eater, or plant it there, or had a hand in that, why would they tell the truth?

Yes, it is speculation, and I think it might be possible that Roid could have been involved, if any Windermerean was complicit in bringing that DE onto the planet. But the way that the rest of the Windermereans have been presented when they talk about this sounds to me as if they truly believe NUNS did it.

At this point, it is the word of the Windermerean rulers against the word of NUNS/the NUN government. Is NUNS more trustworthy simply because our protagonists believe what they say? Is not the behaviour of that NUN official in episode 12 enough reason to cast doubt on the 'accepted history' of what happened?

NB: I'm not saying that Windermere (all of the Windermerean leaders we've met) are off the hook at this point. But I have some serious doubts as to the 'official' stories related by both Freyja and Mirage. Is one right and the other wrong? Or are both wrong? Where does the truth actually lie?

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Something the Windermereans have turned into a WMD to be used, not just against Ragna, but against several inhabited planets.

Here's a definition of a weapon of mass destruction (WMD) (adapted from here):

A weapon that has the potential to case large-scale destruction indiscriminately, especially against civilians.

Destruction: "the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired."

Tell me, how is Var a WMD?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by karice67

Here's a definition of a weapon of mass destruction (WMD) (adapted from here):

A weapon that has the potential to case large-scale destruction indiscriminately, especially against civilians.

Destruction: "the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired."

Tell me, how is Var a WMD?

Turn billions of people into mindless brutes, have them kill each other.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Turn billions of people into mindless brutes, have them kill each other.

Ok, please show me where in the show this has been done.

[Father Hentai]

Where Chaos gets their information is actually not hard to guess. Since they are a military organized unit they have more or less access to military intelligence. Also we don't know how far Lady M influence is on NUN. it seems to be strong enough to delay the destruction if the ruins on raga. Also who knows that this MI is fully correct. My guess is that Arad, Ernest and NUN are somehow keeping a secret from the others since they share the same past as Gramia.

The Var seems like a biochemical weapon as it attacks the nerves of those infected. However, I tend to say it is only part true and with the right dose it is like adrenaline.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by karice67

Ok, please show me where in the show this has been done.

Well, in the very first episode, they did it on a small scale, and it clearly wasn't the first time.

And then lately they used the ruins to mindrape several planets at a time and threaten them with destruction if they didn't surrender. A WMD's a WMD even if you "only" threaten its use.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Well, in the very first episode, they did it on a small scale, and it clearly wasn't the first time.

Please show me your evidence for that.

Oh, and also your reasoning for how "on a small scale" in episode one means they have done it on a scale of billions somewhere else, which we haven't been shown.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And then lately they used the ruins to mindrape several planets at a time and threaten them with destruction if they didn't surrender. A WMD's a WMD even if you "only" threaten its use.

But again, is it a WMD? You haven't dealt with the "indiscriminately" part of the definition.

Indiscriminate: "done at random or without careful judgement."

[Father Hentai]

The question is. When can be an apple and ruin water be named a WMD?

No doubt windermere made experiments on this otherwise they would not have been able spread out the syndrome so far.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by karice67

But again, is it a WMD? You haven't dealt with the "indiscriminately" part of the definition.

Indiscriminate: "done at random or without careful judgement."

An entire city on Alfheim was wiped out by Var syndrome. Yes it is a WMD. Count the numerous acts of violence seen on the show causing civilian casualties.

The Kingdom of Wind is deliberately spreading Var or haven't you heard what Roid said it wouldn't matter if the NUN finally caught up with their scheme as they've spread enough apples and water for a ban not to matter.

The Kingdom of Wind did this for years even before they declared war.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

An entire city on Alfheim was wiped out by Var syndrome. Yes it is a WMD. Count the numerous acts of violence seen on the show causing civilian casualties.

The Kingdom of Wind is deliberately spreading Var or haven't you heard what Roid said it wouldn't matter if the NUN finally caught up with their scheme as they've spread enough apples and water for a ban not to matter.

The Kingdom of Wind did this for years even before they declared war.

Ok, so let's get to what Var is. Is Var caused by a biological agent that is indiscriminate and destroys most if not all the people it infects?

In episode 9, we learn that the Var Syndrome is probably caused "when the fold bacteria that are living parasitically in a person's cells transmit and amplify intense emotions through hyperspace, making the individual behave violently."

In other words, the bacteria themselves don't cause the problem, it's emotions that cause it.

Windermere has spread the Var bacteria so that they can deliberately use it to control people, rather than killing them.

So again, how does this fit into the definition of WMD, given that it's not indiscriminate, but deliberate?

======

Just so this is clear: I'm not trying to lambast anyone for thinking that Windermere is doing something that you find utterly unforgivable in a moral sense. What I am questioning is the way that some people are using the term "WMD" to excuse themselves from using logic to state their position. Instead, they're using a term so politicised that anyone who disagrees is automatically labelled as being 'immoral'.

Criticise (and 'hate on') Windermere all you want. But if you're going to use political terms, then be prepared to defend how you are using them.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by karice67

Ok, so let's get to what Var is. Is Var caused by a biological agent that is indiscriminate and destroys most if not all the people it infects?

In episode 9, we learn that the Var Syndrome is probably caused "when the fold bacteria that are living parasitically in a person's cells transmit and amplify intense emotions through hyperspace, making the individual behave violently."

In other words, the bacteria themselves don't cause the problem, it's emotions that cause it.

Windermere has spread the Var bacteria so that they can deliberately use it to control people, rather than killing them.

So again, how does this fit into the definition of WMD, given that it's not indiscriminate, but deliberate?

======

Just so this is clear: I'm not trying to lambast anyone for thinking that Windermere is doing something that you find utterly unforgivable in a moral sense. What I am questioning is the way that some people are using the term "WMD" to excuse themselves from using logic to state their position. Instead, they're using a term so politicised that anyone who disagrees is automatically labelled as being 'immoral'.

Criticise (and 'hate on') Windermere all you want. But if you're going to use political terms, then be prepared to defend how you are using them.

WMD are Nuclear, Biological or Chemical weapons in the real world. Var syndrome is caused by biological and chemical agents. So yes it fits the WMD category.

What you are quibling about is semantics. Trying to avoid the issue.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

WMD are Nuclear, Biological or Chemical weapons in the real world. Var syndrome is caused by biological and chemical agents. So yes it fits the WMD category.

What you are quibling about is semantics. Trying to avoid the issue.

The point is that the combination of windermere apple and ruin water cause the bacteria to resonate with fold waves. This has the side effect to drive people crazy but also to boost reflexes and reaction time. see Messers last battle vs the Aerial Knights and the duel with Keith.

To sum up. Var actually is not the bad thing but how the fold waves manipulate the carrier of the bacteria. In this case actually Heinz is the WMD and those with the Var syndrome are just the receptor for his fold wave emitting singing.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

The point is that the combination of windermere apple and ruin water cause the bacteria to resonate with fold waves. This has the side effect to drive people crazy but also to boost reflexes and reaction time. see Messers last battle vs the Aerial Knights and the duel with Keith.

To sum up. Var actually is not the bad thing but how the fold waves manipulate the carrier of the bacteria. In this case actually Heinz is the WMD and those with the Var syndrome are just the receptor for his fold wave emitting singing.

Pretty much. The effect of resonance can be used in both ways.

Of course, I still have problems with the idea that 'Heinz is the WMD', since they're not actually using it to make people kill each other, but to make sure that the nations they're invading fall without many (if any) people dying.

Of course, it's the 'mind control' element that people find repulsive. I suggest sticking to that, instead of trying to draw analogies that don't really work.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by karice67

after all, they were completely willing to go to Ragna and unilaterally destroy the Protoculture Ruins there, without allowing the Ragnans any say in the matter whatsoever.

Okay, let's back this up, right here.
Is there any evidence that the Ragnan government wasn't consulted or informed? As I understand it, they're autonomous, but still a part of NUG, right? There should be some sort of chain of command of something. War-time decisions and all that. It may not be "right" or "proper" or "nice", but what's to say they weren't (at least) informed, even if off-screen? I don't remember if it was shown or addressed...

[karice67]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Okay, let's back this up, right here.
Is there any evidence that the Ragnan government wasn't consulted or informed? As I understand it, they're autonomous, but still a part of NUG, right? There should be some sort of chain of command of something. War-time decisions and all that. It may not be "right" or "proper" or "nice", but what's to say they weren't (at least) informed, even if off-screen? I don't remember if it was shown or addressed...

Well, the NUNS guy arrived and apparently went straight to Chaos to give Lady M 'courtesy notice' that they were going to blow up the ruins... If he'd gone to see the Rangan government first, I'm sure someone in the Elysion would have known before he came.

So it's heavily implied that they don't even need to notify Ragna. Or do you think they sent another person to give a 'courtesy notice' to the Ragna government as well?

I'll grant that there is another possibility: maybe any planet that wants to set up relations with with NUN and thus gain access to galactic trade etc, has to give up so much of its sovereignty that it has no say in 'military affairs', even if it's about defending itself.

But if that's the case, then I completely get why Windermere wanted out of that treaty, and wanted the NUN government and NUNS out of the cluster.

I mean, it's like:

"Sure, you're welcome to join the galactic system under our direction and rule. We'll provide you the opportunity to trade, to import fantastic technology, and export your produce. But in return, you have to give up any right to defend yourself, and rely instead on our military that's controlled centrally. Oh, and if we deem it necessary, we can just blow up parts of your planet, since you're part of us now."

[Darthtabby]

I doubt the behaviour of the NUN rep seemingly proving the Windermerean claim that the NUN does not deal with the locals on equal terms was an accident on the part of the writers. It wouldn't be that hard to throw in a line about "the Ragnan government has already agreed to our plan" if it wasn't meant to showcase NUNS trampling over the locals.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

An entire city on Alfheim was wiped out by Var syndrome. Yes it is a WMD. Count the numerous acts of violence seen on the show causing civilian casualties.

The only time the series has shown Heinz' singing used to simply make people go berserk was in the first episode when they're trying to lure out Walkure. That being said I do imagine the distribution of the apples that increase people's susceptibility to VAR (and this makes them easier to control) has led to cases where people have gone berserk. Windermere is playing with fire here.

I do find it notable that mind control was used on the civilian population of Al-Shahal, but on Voldor it was targetted at the military. Is this because the Wind treats natives of the cluster differently from immigrants? Or is it just because we haven't been back to Voldor recently?

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

I doubt the behaviour of the NUN rep seemingly proving the Windermerean claim that the NUN does not deal with the locals on equal terms was an accident on the part of the writers. It wouldn't be that hard to throw in a line about "the Ragnan government has already agreed to our plan" if it wasn't meant to showcase NUNS trampling over the locals.



The only time the series has shown Heinz' singing used to simply make people go berserk was in the first episode when they're trying to lure out Walkure. That being said I do imagine the distribution of the apples that increase people's susceptibility to VAR (and this makes them easier to control) has led to cases where people have gone berserk. Windermere is playing with fire here.

I do find it notable that mind control was used on the civilian population of Al-Shahal, but on Voldor it was targetted at the military. Is this because the Wind treats natives of the cluster differently from immigrants? Or is it just because we haven't been back to Voldor recently?

Also according to Keith's manga they're very first official attack (the ones prior were small scale experiments)was the attack on Al-Shahal and no matter how you look at it what happened on Alfheim was by no means small scale plus (I forgot which episode) Kaname stated that the only Var outbreaks that could be accredited to the Windermerians are the ones with fold reactions.
Also while the apples and water may cause people to develop the conditions required to become var they still need to hear Heinz's voice in order for it to become active
Plus there's also that suspicious Char clone with the Vajra in the background and correct me if I'm wrong but that manga was about the earlier years of the Var (between the end of Frontier and the beginning of Delta)

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

I do find it notable that mind control was used on the civilian population of Al-Shahal, but on Voldor it was targetted at the military. Is this because the Wind treats natives of the cluster differently from immigrants? Or is it just because we haven't been back to Voldor recently?

Again Windermere forbade local produce for their own particularly the apples. Voldor leader has his hands tied due their entire military mind controlled but noting Windermereans are short lived willing wait for the leadership to die out in 10 years.

The reason Windermere is blitzkrieging the ruins is that they can mind control the entire cluster to prevent a future resistance which will fuck them over in a few years.

If the ruin network is taken away from Windermere I can see Windermerean soldiers trapped like rats desperate to survive from the enraged natives.

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

Also while the apples and water may cause people to develop the conditions required to become var they still need to hear Heinz's voice in order for it to become active

As seen on the Prologue a guy eating a Windermerean apple went Var. And that was on a Macross fleet. Berserk mode Var they don't need to hear Heinz voice as it depends on the growth of Fold Bacteria in their system. Closest thing we've seen like this V-type Fold Bacteria infected Hydra that went rabid on Frontier.

[Tak]

Could someone please answer me, in your opinion, just how much damage can the Wind accomplish before it becomes unacceptable?

- Tak

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Tak

Could someone please answer me, in your opinion, just how much damage can the Wind accomplish before it becomes unacceptable?

- Tak

From Windermere perspective:
Gramia/Keith: Until no human exist in Brisingir Cluster
Roid: Until world's habe been liberated or NUNG are willing to renegotiate.

NUNG: no statement made yet, however they are willing to destroy cultural sights to avoid quick spreading of Bar

The dangerous part is that both faction may forget what they were fighting for.

[kuromitsu]

Could someone please answer me, just how many ways should we put it so that everyone finally understands that

1) nobody here thinks that Var is awesome and is cheering Windermere on, we are merely assuming that they have their own logic and motivations and these are intersting to explore, along with the controversies and ambiguities of the whole situation on all sides and for all characters;

2) this is not a real life situation, no real people are being hurt, and not everyone can muster strong feelings about fictional people doing fictional things to other fictional people in a fictional universe where the power of song wins wars;

3) seriously, why are you guys taking this so damn seriously, it's like you're debating an actual war situation that is going on IRL, I understand some people must always fight over something but come on.