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Old 2018-02-13, 23:03   Link #41
~Yami~
a random Indonesian otaku
 
 
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stacked year... no one sweeps the award..

time to watch more anime this year.. let's hope it would getting better
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Old 2018-02-14, 13:53   Link #42
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
@Haak if by free for all you mean accept all entries? Maybe I guess? But probably too finniky if I don't merge similar one, and it's this inaccurate nature that's actually the core problem. The thing is it's either all "vote for specific character" categories go (we can still have character-related categories of course) or it's no gain at all other then a format change. Since just one category is enough to solicit all the grueling work of getting all the characters from all the shows sadly. Though it of course helps to have less categories to deal with people's character related typos and nicknames.

You don't have to make the decision right now if you really feel torn on it. We still survived this year again after all. But it probably be better now due to the implicit replacement of categories, so people can pitch in to decide what to do with the open spots.
I see, so it's the very format of a character category that's the problem. In which case, would it just be better to have a Best Overall Cast category?

Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
From my perspective the problem is a sort of torture by 1000 cuts. Both very small changes that happened over the years and also small changes that didn't happen. There's no point in going into debate here so I'll just briefly go though what I think are some of the major landmarks (I'm sure you know most of them with just a word or two to point them out anyway). Everyone sees different problems, so take these with a grain of salt.
I also think the removal of the Reputation system had an effect but that's just me.
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Old 2018-02-14, 21:42   Link #43
Reckoner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I also think the removal of the Reputation system had an effect but that's just me.
Social media platforms are very savvy about what keeps people interested in coming back and its these tiny bits of dopamine hits that do it. You want to farm that reddit karma, get a million retweets and followers, etc.

The reputation system was very much this for forum activities. There could have been reforms done on the system that didn't do away with it entirely but it's definitely got to be one of the reasons. Not that I think these sorts of addictive dopamine incentives are a good thing to have in society.
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Old 2018-02-14, 23:02   Link #44
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Oh I know what.

Stop demanding the rules be changed just because one is butthurt over the results. I feel people value consistency and simplicity over what is "optimal" Good thing it didn't happen this year, but like every year before some anomaly happened (so-and-so won too many awards) like anyone really gives a shit. Adopting Blizzard's balancing scheme is just annoying.

But really, IMO the crew has done all it can. Just not enough momentum anymore
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Old 2018-02-14, 23:11   Link #45
Guardian Enzo
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Heh, I haven't thought about the rep system in a long time. I actually do think it was a mistake to get rid of it.
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Old 2018-02-15, 01:08   Link #46
Marcus H.
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Lol no.

The rep system shifted the focus from the actual content to the poster and whether this poster belongs to some social circle within the forum community. So if I, for example, was established as someone who just comes to a thread to drop strong opinions of a show, someone who doesn't like my way of posting could just go and neg-rep each of my posts until people see the conga line of red blocks and stop taking my posts seriously.

This destructive effect was one big reason why the reputation system was shut down, and I will try to prevent its revival, even if I have to hoard the Dragon Balls in my basement.
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Old 2018-02-15, 03:32   Link #47
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
This destructive effect was one big reason why the reputation system was shut down, and I will try to prevent its revival, even if I have to hoard the Dragon Balls in my basement.
I don't think there's any chance for bringing back rep. If that's really reason for the "forum's decline", it was worth the trade-off in terms of the quality of discussion.

And, by the way (to address an earlier post), if anyone wants to send us new banner images for any current theme, we'll consider them if they're decent. I can put the different current-theme backgrounds somewhere.

Briefly, anime discussion in a simulcast, streaming world is completely different than the fansub world. The knowledge gap between raw viewers and sub viewers is gone, and that drove a lot of interest/demand (and certainly the torrent tracker played into that). This is why we still see a fair bit of traffic in novels and manga, where this is still a factor (people still sign up to this site today looking to discuss novel/manga raws). I'd also say anecdotally that a lot of people I know stopped doing the weekly cycle and just binge watch stuff, so that basically kicks you out of the discussion too. There's no magic fix for any of this stuff, but I don't think there's any desire among the staff to make changes that would encourage shitposting or lower the quality of discussion just to build more controversy traffic. (Unlike every single site that has advertising, we aren't paid by the click.)

I still think there's more than just that at play if you want to get raw increased participation in this contest (there still is a decent community on this site, this notwithstanding), but just like the site itself, it's a question if you want to change the design/vision/strategy to pursue traffic or not.
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Old 2018-02-15, 04:33   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Social media platforms are very savvy about what keeps people interested in coming back and its these tiny bits of dopamine hits that do it. You want to farm that reddit karma, get a million retweets and followers, etc.

The reputation system was very much this for forum activities. There could have been reforms done on the system that didn't do away with it entirely but it's definitely got to be one of the reasons. Not that I think these sorts of addictive dopamine incentives are a good thing to have in society.
I can see you view it that way but at same time people just want their work to be appreciated. Whether it through simple "like" system or community program which is, to put it frankly, is what this forum lack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I don't think there's any chance for bringing back rep. If that's really reason for the "forum's decline", it was worth the trade-off in terms of the quality of discussion.

And, by the way (to address an earlier post), if anyone wants to send us new banner images for any current theme, we'll consider them if they're decent. I can put the different current-theme backgrounds somewhere.

Briefly, anime discussion in a simulcast, streaming world is completely different than the fansub world. The knowledge gap between raw viewers and sub viewers is gone, and that drove a lot of interest/demand (and certainly the torrent tracker played into that). This is why we still see a fair bit of traffic in novels and manga, where this is still a factor (people still sign up to this site today looking to discuss novel/manga raws). I'd also say anecdotally that a lot of people I know stopped doing the weekly cycle and just binge watch stuff, so that basically kicks you out of the discussion too. There's no magic fix for any of this stuff, but I don't think there's any desire among the staff to make changes that would encourage shitposting or lower the quality of discussion just to build more controversy traffic. (Unlike every single site that has advertising, we aren't paid by the click.)

I still think there's more than just that at play if you want to get raw increased participation in this contest (there still is a decent community on this site, this notwithstanding), but just like the site itself, it's a question if you want to change the design/vision/strategy to pursue traffic or not.
If current staff not interested in anime discussion anymore. Why not give their staff role to those who still active?
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Old 2018-02-15, 14:05   Link #49
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I also think the removal of the Reputation system had an effect but that's just me.
It did certainly have an effect. But I'm of the camp that think it's well worth it for it to go away.

With regard to other social media. They don't really show per-user karma but per-post karma from my point of view. Subscriber/Viewer counts is what's really the equivalent if I were to name one, but I can respect viewcounts at least. I can tolerate up/down on posts, it at least can be said to directly add something to a debate.

These days the only variation I'm really happy with is the "reaction" system (as seen on things like Discord, Github and the like). To described it plainly, responding to posts with a random emoji of your choice (usernames names shown); looks otherwise similar to up/down system, but personally like it when people use anything but up/down emotes unless it's an actual question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
And, by the way (to address an earlier post), if anyone wants to send us new banner images for any current theme, we'll consider them if they're decent. I can put the different current-theme backgrounds somewhere.
What's considered current theme? the blue gradient? or is there some winter requirement?
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Old 2018-02-16, 03:09   Link #50
Last Sinner
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Dopamine/upvoting is for glimmer agents who follow the masses, addicted top 10 anime betrayals every 5 minutes seasoned with omegaluls.

There is nothing wrong with being a smaller community. So what if Reddit and Crunchyroll are where the bigger numbers are? There are consequences to bigger communities. And I remember them when they were here. There was considerably more hostility. There were more flame wars. There were zealots who would stop at nothing to make their point of view the only acceptable point of view in a series thread. Heck, even in 2016 there were zealots here who just wouldn't stop crusading. Or that popular titles were the only titles that mattered. Because popularity is the only thing dictating the quality of a title or what the masses should do, right?

No, of course it isn't....If anything, I feel while there is less activity here, that I have been able to say some things without it turning into World War 3. So this place is smaller these days. So be it. AniDB, ANN and the like plod on. They have their own way. We have our own way.

And while there are some Youtubers that are bastions now like Gigguk, Mother'sBasement, etc. that do have overall merit to them, there comes a point where their constant omegalul-centric ways do get tiresome. I give Gigguk more time because he is able to be serious at times and get valid points across. But as Youtubers and streamers have shown, omegalul antics get more views, so they have to cater to that. And throw in the self depreciation of anime fans/one of us mentality - more negativity/ranting comes from it. Because heck, you're not allowed to have any self-value or be a decent person if you're an anime fan, if you actually believe that dumb mentality.

But there is something to remember. To enjoy anime does not require being backed up by the masses or feeling some sort of justification from being part of the masses. Watch anime for your own reasons and your own fulfillments.

When I came to that conclusion a few years ago, I enjoyed the medium more than I had in a long time.

And remember that anime fans are generally not that sociable to begin with. Plenty of them wouldn't even bother saying something out loud. Even an emote would be a big deal for some.

As for the poll results, decent overall. One title's backing across any community chills me, but meh, each to their own. It's their right to like it. Good work, Haak.

Be well, people. Don't fall victim to glimmer agents.
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Last edited by Last Sinner; 2018-02-16 at 12:17.
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Old 2018-02-17, 02:06   Link #51
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRW View Post
If current staff not interested in anime discussion anymore. Why not give their staff role to those who still active?
I'm not really sure how you took that from what I said at all, honestly. I said that there's no interest among the staff in doing anything that would encourage shitposting or lower the quality of the discussion, but there's still interest in anime discussion itself. Just, ideally, constructive and meaningful discussion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
What's considered current theme? the blue gradient? or is there some winter requirement?
This gradient is a winter theme, but there are other gradients for each season (Spring, Summer, Fall/Halloween, and Christmas). I can post them all somewhere with an open call for more additions.
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Old 2018-02-17, 05:27   Link #52
serenade_beta
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I'm just going to drop in and say I would disagree with bringing back the rep system (yes, I know it wouldn't come back anyways).

All that does is motivate people to act outside of their actual opinion. "If I said this, then I might get up-voted/down-voted!" It's hardly helpful.
On top of that, because people can do it without giving their names, that also brings in another factor of meh-ness.

As for the social media whatevers that supposedly addict people to coming back on...
Yes, I get that people get "happy" over others giving those weird heart things on Twitter or whatever.
That's nothing to really brag about. It's not necessarily good. And it isn't worth the trade-off.

And you know, the results will never really be satisfying for these type of things, no matter where you go. The bigger your population, in fact, the easier it is for the more well-known hyped but not actually good stuff or casual stuff that people just happen to know more to "win" awards.
It's just for the fun of things. If people told me One Piece won more awards than Kissdum, good for them. Me?
Spoiler:


PS: Wait, Animesuki stopped hosting torrents or something? I'm honestly out of the loop on that since I never really used the site for that purpose...
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Old 2018-02-17, 07:56   Link #53
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
PS: Wait, Animesuki stopped hosting torrents or something? I'm honestly out of the loop on that since I never really used the site for that purpose...
Animesuki has always only hosted unlicensed torrents. There's just almost none these days. It's not a bad thing of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
This gradient is a winter theme, but there are other gradients for each season (Spring, Summer, Fall/Halloween, and Christmas). I can post them all somewhere with an open call for more additions.
I'll take that as a yes to just the gradient being the requirement.
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Old 2018-02-17, 16:17   Link #54
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by felix View Post
I'll take that as a yes to just the gradient being the requirement.
Gradient and theme. So if you're going to use the current background, keep it winter-related, for example. (Though that's fairly broadly-defined.)
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Old 2018-02-17, 16:23   Link #55
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I don't think there's any chance for bringing back rep. If that's really reason for the "forum's decline", it was worth the trade-off in terms of the quality of discussion.
I don't know what you're seeing on this forum, but I've seen a remarkable decline in engaging debate and analysis on this forum outside the LN section. It's actually the primary reason I don't even bother discussing very much anymore. And yes, I do think part of it is the reputation system. People likely enjoyed getting some sort of recognition for the painstaking efforts they put into things like detailed analysis posts or actually engaging others for debate in substantive ways. Just that little bit of encouragement went a long way to fostering a community.

I recognize this is different from the moderator's perspective, you always had to manage the negative side effects of the system, but this is where I think you guys tend to be out of touch with the user base as a whole to be frank and as usual cater to the more sensitive among the community in order to lessen your own workload. There were ways to reform the reputation system or go to another system that maintained its positives and less of its negatives. If you're looking at the post reputation system world of AS as the golden years of discussion here, then that kind of makes me sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
No, of course it isn't....If anything, I feel while there is less activity here, that I have been able to say some things without it turning into World War 3. So this place is smaller these days. So be it. AniDB, ANN and the like plod on. They have their own way. We have our own way.
Oh yeah, it must feel nice to be in your echo chamber these days.
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Old 2018-02-17, 17:45   Link #56
Haak
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I'm with Reckoner on this one. My experience is that the declining activity has been a real let down. I used to love the times when I could have so much discussions. Sure there was a lot of crap too (like the amount of time I wasted arguing that Naruto would ultimately end up with Sakura XP) but I still found it fun. Now I feel like I have to put in effort just to stay active and even when I do post I feel like I'm talking to air a lot of the time. I've even sometimes found myself deliberately being stubborn on arguments just to find an excuse to be more active. That's how sad and deprived I am. XP

When members say that they had rubbish experiences with the reputation system and the activity then I can believe them. But let me point out the fact that the whole reason we're having this discussion in the first place is that the Awards (which everyone here still appreciates) has been in serious jeopardy and now we're even having to downsize it. That's also a consequence of the declining activity. I don't mean to belittle other people's perspectives here. People have had different experiences on this forum and I can appreciate that. And if you guys still think the trade-off is worth it, then I can't convince you otherwise. But I do feel the need to at least get a word in because the last thing I want is for people to believe that there is a consensus on this when there isn't. In fact I'm pretty sure there are loads more that would agree with me. You just won't hear it because most of them have already left. And for what it's worth I liked the reputation system too: It was what kept me interested in this site during my dumb socially withdrawn teenage years. XP

I'm also really worried that this forum is going to die and I'd hate for that to happen. I feel like there's a lot of misplaced optimism that activity levels have plateaued (or will even increase) but I'm not convinced. I've seen forums die and it kills a part of me every damn time.
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Old 2018-02-17, 19:58   Link #57
felix
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Are you guys talking about the little messages you would get with each rep? Or the bars?

There's kind of two parts to this, there's the bars, and then there's the rep messages which are more of a personal thing since only you could see them. I know they're technically part of the same system but they're really not. It's tweakable, so we can actually have rep, with such absurd high levels that to get 2 bars is phenomenal, and so and such. The reason it was removed, and what people complain about, was not the messages but the bars (as I recall). So which one are you both referring to?

I can totally see where you're coming from if it was the messages. But if it's the bars I find it hard to see the argument here.

To have a discussion you need,
  • something more then one person has emotional stock in (who the hell is the best girl? was X justified to do X? will Y ever get with Z? etc)
  • points of contention (controversy, emotional investiture, philosophical views, etc)
  • an appropriate medium where it won't be doomed to die (hence why single threads suck, threaded-threads suck, the "topic" getting thrown everywhere disorderly sucks, and so on)
  • time to cook (the most interesting debates are ones with at least a bit of history and contributions to them; first few replies are usually boring, good shit starts at page 2)

Lets assume for a sec the rep system was re-enabled (since it's that simple unless someone dropped something), BUT, in this alternative reality Naruto never existed as a forum! only as a single thread. Do you think your Sakura X Naruto would have existed as more then a 3-4 post thing on page 20XX? I mean just look at this thread to see single-thread-syndrome in action (not talking about this rep thing here either).

If you want a chance of going back to the old ways the moderation team has to go back to the old "seeded discussion" and per-series/multi-series moderators (instead of everyone is supermod as I believe they are now) as well as "free market" when it comes to topics. Otherwise yes of course "my review of", "news on", "update for" are going to reign king, since a generic topic elicits generic posts, and you don't get any "oh I didn't read/post in that topic" kind of replies either.

But there's one tiny wincy problem with all that as well.

It's ALL assuming equal opportunity when it comes to the material in question.

I have a sneaking suspecion that while not entirely, but at least in part, a large problem is that, stuff is just not as interesting to talk about. Like I said, and I really want to hear counter arguments on this, but I feel like both emotional stock is low and points of contention is at an all time low. There's always the obvious personal reasons involved (sometimes you just grow out of it) but then there's also just the nature of the thing.

So for example you might like all the moe fluff but, there really isn't much to talk about with them, not as much as say some gundam show, or any show with deep political system and world building. Some of these newer trends also seem to have these really annoying akward discussions that come up (single father with daughter show... [insert 100 lolicon accusation posts]). I feel like for a long time now shows have been moving away from world building and heavily leaning on "cute girls doing cute stuff" (and more recently, "cute boys doing cute boy stuff") as well as just having a single "edge" to them rather then a myriad of things piled up.

There's then also the issue of tropes. What are some new tropes? Anyone actually seen any? Similarly the old tropes are so trenched in that it's impossible to even think of the alternative happening. In Franxx is it even worth thinking about the main dude ending up with any other girl but 002? Like it used to happen that we would have these discussions, feels a bit pointless for new shows. Don't get me wrong, they work great, it's good show and all, but when you have this case of very finely tuned perfected tropes, you're in the situation where it's nice to watch, but there's no much to talk about. Occasionally I'll watch a ol' goodie I missed, and maybe it's just me, but they feel a bit less predictable, not completely unpredictable in places but less of a smooth curve overall. You don't necesarily feel like they're sticking to some nothing actually matters template (fluffy shows) or a extremely strict formulaic theme.
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Old 2018-02-17, 21:19   Link #58
Archon_Wing
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Rep system I won't miss. It was a fun minigame but I think it was toxic and just another form of an echo chamber. It would be a strong tendency to not seperate a post from a poster.


It is just like what gets upvoted in reddit. Rarely it is the most thoughtful post but generally a modest quip that is inline with groupthink that makes sure to be safe enough to not offend anyone and also because people don't have time to read long posts.

It was also a moderation burden since some saw it as a way to secretly insult people, which it really isn't.
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Old 2018-02-18, 13:09   Link #59
Kanon
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I'm also really worried that this forum is going to die and I'd hate for that to happen. I feel like there's a lot of misplaced optimism that activity levels have plateaued (or will even increase) but I'm not convinced. I've seen forums die and it kills a part of me every damn time.
I'm trying to be optimistic, but I'm also worried the forum is going to die too. It's been part of my life for ten years, so of course I would hate to see that happen. I'm trying to participate as much as I can because I know the less activity there is on a forum, the less people are inclined to post. It's a vicious circle. I don't feel like I'm forcing myself though. I still enjoy posting my impressions, no matter how inane they might be.

Regarding the removal of the rep system, I do think it is one of the factor that caused people to leave. Some people need to know their posts are appreciated or at least read, and it was an easy way to do that. Just had to click one button and that was it. Now when we see a really good post, and we don't have anything to add to it, we can do nothing, which might give that person the impression their post was totally ignored. PMs and VMs aren't practical for that purpose, and if you post a simple "great post", it will be considered spam by the mods.
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Old 2018-02-19, 01:38   Link #60
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
I have a sneaking suspecion that while not entirely, but at least in part, a large problem is that, stuff is just not as interesting to talk about.
Maybe. Though perhaps people pick the least interesting stuff to talk about, you know like shipping and shit. Granted it's not as bad here, but it can be kind of annoying when there's hyperfocus on one aspect of the show.

And then there are the fucking dipshits that pass off spoilers as "hints" usually to skirt around spoiler rules but usually to win an argument using advance knowledge of the show, probably involving shipping or the other big one is "you're watching the show wrong" That kind of shit is alienating, and it's quite evident in some cases. For example, I watched Hibike Euphonium after it aired and avoided all discussion about it. It was pretty enjoyable because with all the buzzing around I sensed that the discussions on certain topics would be pure cancer. Unfortunately I didn't take that advice for season 2.

And again, it's much worse everywhere else. I guess it's really just a sign of the times.

Oh sorry. I really do think this should be a separate topic. Should keep the optimism up in this thread, so I do extend my appreciation to the folks that make these things possible despite tough times.
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