Sword Art Online - Game Mechanics and Technology [Speculation, NO Spoilers]

[Anh_Minh]

Except they're talking about intelligence. Nervgear intercepts motor skill signals.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Except they're talking about intelligence. Nervgear intercepts motor skill signals.

hmmm can't trust wiki but here is what it says:

"In the year 2022, the Virtual reality Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game (VRMMORPG) Sword Art Online (SAO) is released. With the Nerve Gear, a VR Helmet that stimulates the user's five senses via their brain, players can experience and control their in-game characters with their minds."

[Anh_Minh]

Yeah, so? What it scans is the area of the brain that commands movement, not actual thought (which is what your article was talking about). That's why Sword Skills and menus are triggered by certain gestures, and not thoughts.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah, so? What it scans is the area of the brain that commands movement, not actual thought (which is what your article was talking about). That's why Sword Skills and menus are triggered by certain gestures, and not thoughts.

Hmmm intelligence is such an abstract thing which I don't think we really understand, but the scans talk about grey and white matter, which we use to relate to stuff we do know about such as processing nodes and interconnectivity. IMHO interconnectivity is king, without it, it doesn't matter how fat your processors or how many there are if you can't shift the data between nodes the data becomes worthless (well in terms of time dependant things).

Now if the NerveGear intercepts signals and manipulates signals from the brain, where do these signals originate from? My guess is when they fire from the synapses across the white mater (I have no idea at all about brain matter xD)

Which is why I got to thinking would the female brain which has more white matter then the male brain of comparable IQ (remember IQ isn't a good measure of intelligence), be better at interfacing with the NerveGear?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Hmmm intelligence is such an abstract thing which I don't think we really understand, but the scans talk about grey and white matter, which we use to relate to stuff we do know about such as processing nodes and interconnectivity. IMHO interconnectivity is king, without it, it doesn't matter how fat your processors or how many there are if you can't shift the data between nodes the data becomes worthless (well in terms of time dependant things).

That's like asking what's more important in a processor - the logic gates, or the wiring between them? Without either, you have no processor anymore. Even assuming male and female brain are achitectured differently, it's not enough to conclude one is better than the other for any given task. Besides, I assume they're talking about frontal lobes, where most of the thinking process occurs. Nervgear probably scans another part of the brain, responsible for motion.

Now if the NerveGear intercepts signals and manipulates signals from the brain, where do these signals originate from? My guess is when they fire from the synapses across the white mater (I have no idea at all about brain matter xD)

We're talking about fictitious technology relating to a subject neither of us are experts in. Sure, whatever, Nervgear works better on females. But not because of gray or white matter. It's because the brain leprechauns of girls get more practice texting on their teeny smartphones.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

That's like asking what's more important in a processor - the logic gates, or the wiring between them? Without either, you have no processor anymore. Even assuming male and female brain are achitectured differently, it's not enough to conclude one is better than the other for any given task. Besides, I assume they're talking about frontal lobes, where most of the thinking process occurs. Nervgear probably scans another part of the brain, responsible for motion.

Actually we have quite a lot of evidence that interconnectivity is much more important then the processors themselves. At least in terms of our current technology, if you consider our modern monster crunchers basically you have the ones which are really really expensive where you try to fit as much of the processing ability onto the same die, basically trying to reduce the latency (aka slowness over the interconnect). Then of course you have ones like SETI/Boinc which are the opposite, but you pick problems which time isn't an issue. Data is delivered to the node and within a set time (really really slow in HPC terms) the processed data is passed to a control do which does automagical stuffs to it.

Now in terms of something like NerveGear which is time dependant the problem is closer to the first example where reducing latency and having more bandwidth is very high priority.

BTW note I'm not saying one can't do without the other, just one has much larger overall improvements then the other. A good example is CPU vs GPU, and Nvidia can quite smugly tell us all how much better lots of pipes and cores are vs a single (well 4ish) big expensive cores.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

We're talking about fictitious technology relating to a subject neither of us are experts in. Sure, whatever, Nervgear works better on females. But not because of gray or white matter. It's because the brain leprechauns of girls get more practice texting on their teeny smartphones.

Not to sure what I wrote to receive this response from you, I'll take it as a light hearted joke as I'm just having fun speculating about any advantages of the NerveGear related to any real life info we have.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Adigard

Did not, but since we have voice comms today in most MMO's... it's probably not too much different.

Do I understand correctly that MMOs today can make you do voice conversations through mic and headphones? Then you can't do that in SAO, your body don't actually speak while playing, right?

The only explanation I can think of is that they actually have a full simulation of the tongues and vocal cords in game. The NervGear intercepted motor signals right? The vibration of the cords, the movements of your lips and tongues can lead to simulation of speech. The only 'but' I can think of here is everyone should've sounded the same this way (or at least, limited to several pre-determined voices).

[Adigard]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Then you can't do that in SAO, your body don't actually speak while playing, right?

For the sake of this thread, we don't really know.

But you've got a fair point, it's also perfectly believable that part of the user setup would, in addition to asking you to touch various things and places to ensure the nerve links worked successfully, ask you to speak a few paragraphs to ensure they were successfully recording your voice mannerisms.

Somehow a helmet you're wearing on your head has to know what you look like, know how tall you are, and many other things. It's not impossible the system would record a longish voice conversation to reproduce your voice. It'd be very immersion breaking to listen to someone else every time you said anything.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Adigard

For the sake of this thread, we don't really know.

But you've got a fair point, it's also perfectly believable that part of the user setup would, in addition to asking you to touch various things and places to ensure the nerve links worked successfully, ask you to speak a few paragraphs to ensure they were successfully recording your voice mannerisms.

Somehow a helmet you're wearing on your head has to know what you look like, know how tall you are, and many other things. It's not impossible the system would record a longish voice conversation to reproduce your voice. It'd be very immersion breaking to listen to someone else every time you said anything.

I went that way at first, but I think simply recording your voice isn't really able to perfectly reproduce one's voice, especially considering it's all done basically instantly (you speak, and you hear your own voice, what input does that voice converter read?).

Wait, maybe it's possible. The passage readings are meant to build our own virtual vocal-cords (which afaik, the thing that differentiates our voices from others) through some kind of reverse engineering of the voices. If we have our own virtual vocal cords, then it's possible to somewhat accurately reproduce our speech in-game.

[Clarste]

@grey_moon: You do realize that the people inside the Nerve Gear are still using their brains, right? The signals that are being hijacked are the ones leaving the brain (and entering the brain). The brain itself is untouched. While male or female brains may have some structural difference that could conceivably offer a benefit to playing video games, those differences would have the exact same effect on current video games in real life. Because they'd be effects on reaction times and processing speed and whatnot. Effects that would also help you in real life.

No matter how fancy the Nerve Gear sounds, ultimately it's a just a fancy controller. It's not doing anything crazy to your brain, it's just projecting senses into it and receiving movement signals coming out of it. There's no reason for it to directly interact with deep brain processes.

[EnOfEridu]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

I went that way at first, but I think simply recording your voice isn't really able to perfectly reproduce one's voice, especially considering it's all done basically instantly (you speak, and you hear your own voice, what input does that voice converter read?).

Wait, maybe it's possible. The passage readings are meant to build our own digital vocal-cords (which afaik, the thing that differentiates our voices from others) through some kind of reverse engineering of the voices. If we have our own digital vocal cords, then it's possible to somewhat accurately reproduce our speech in-game.

Recording and playing sound implies that there is sound in SAO. BUT!, everything happens in a virtual world. A world where a bunch of brains are all connected togheter and it has been established somewhere, the effectivly sever the nerve connection from the brain to several parts of the body. It has been established in ep 10 that you can feel pain, that is, you brain receives a virtual input from the virtual world.

Therefore, no need to simulate anything of the body, tongue, tone, ectera. With a brief recording, everything is digitally reproduced and transmitted. So you transfer digital data from brain to brain that simulates actual speech, voice, tone and everything else. Much easier than try to simulate physical parts of the body.

I would do it that way.

[Clarste]

You can't feel pain. I don't care what you think the anime looks like it's showing, the first episode made it clear that pain is "turned off". Everything that looks like pain is easily described as either surprise or the fear of death because both of those things also cause reactions like that. That's just a fact.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by EnOfEridu

Recording and playing sound implies that there is sound in SAO. BUT!, everything happens in a virtual world. A world where a bunch of brains are all connected togheter and it has been established somewhere, the effectivly sever the nerve connection from the brain to several parts of the body. It has been established in ep 10 that you can feel pain, that is, you brain receives a virtual input from the virtual world.

Therefore, no need to simulate anything of the body, tongue, tone, ectera. With a brief recording, everything is digitally reproduced and transmitted. So you transfer digital data from brain to brain that simulates actual speech, voice, tone and everything else. Much easier than try to simulate physical parts of the body.

I would do it that way.

This would makes sense if we're making some kind of vocaloid where there is a separate input that isn't really instantaneous. Like I said, if we rely solely on recorded voices, how does the simulator read what we're saying and in what tone (what input does it take)?

Eh wait. Btw, how did Stephen Hawking's communicator works again?

[EnOfEridu]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

This would makes sense if we're making some kind of vocaloid where there is a separate input that isn't really instantaneous. Like I said, if we rely solely on recorded voices, how does the simulator read what we're saying and in what tone (what input does it take)?

Directly from the brain. Since it reads everything, it read emotion too. If you are "vocalizing" that is your brain wants to send the "speak" signal, you translate what you want to say from brain signal to speak to brain signal to think you hear. This needs crazy computer processing, but, well, teh futurez.

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Eh wait. Btw, how did Stephen Hawking's communicator works again?

I think in the beginning he wrote in a keyboard? Now that he can really move that much, maybe it translate certain impulses from nerve muscles to words. The processing is basic, but is a start.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by EnOfEridu

Directly from the brain. Since it reads everything, it read emotion too. If you are "vocalizing" that is your brain wants to send the "speak" signal, you translate what you want to say from brain signal to speak to brain signal to think you hear. This needs crazy computer processing, but, well, teh futurez.

Well, if we're talking science fiction from even further future, then yes.

But in-universe, afaik NervGear only intercepts motor signals (because the body still need the brain to function) and how can it do "emotion reading" if it only reads motoric signals?

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Clarste

@grey_moon: You do realize that the people inside the Nerve Gear are still using their brains, right? The signals that are being hijacked are the ones leaving the brain (and entering the brain). The brain itself is untouched. While male or female brains may have some structural difference that could conceivably offer a benefit to playing video games, those differences would have the exact same effect on current video games in real life. Because they'd be effects on reaction times and processing speed and whatnot. Effects that would also help you in real life.

No matter how fancy the Nerve Gear sounds, ultimately it's a just a fancy controller. It's not doing anything crazy to your brain, it's just projecting senses into it and receiving movement signals coming out of it. There's no reason for it to directly interact with deep brain processes.

They can already use brain signals to control stuffs without touching the brain itself by wearing a mesh sensor net over the top of the head. Interjecting signals to fool the brain can't be that far off. Have your heard of the theory that deep fear in haunted houses could be due to a strong electromagnetic field messing with the brain?

Where is everyone getting their info on what the Nerve Gear is pls? I used Wikipedia (which I know not to be accurate), and also Wikia. To me the desc implies that the gears interact with the brain, also please ask yourselves how does intercepting motor signals allow people to taste simulated stuffs?

*EDIT*

Wait you just said yourself "it's just projecting senses into it and receiving movement signals coming out of it.", right... This might make my PoV easy to explain.... My point is are they sensing signals from the grey matter which is the processors, or white matter which is the signals firing across the interconnects?

In terms of data comms it is much easier for a 3rd party to hijack the interconnects (wire tapping, man in the middle attacks etc), whilst hijacking the node should be much more complicated. This is where my theory is based on.

Several times in the game it has been shown that speed and reactions is the most important. You don't need physical strength just timing and speed, therefore if they are sensing signals travelling across the white matter and female brains allegedly have more white matter, that to me implies they would have an advantage no matter how slight!

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Where is everyone getting their info on what the Nerve Gear is pls? I used Wikipedia (which I know not to be accurate), and also Wikia. To me the desc implies that the gears interact with the brain, also please ask yourselves how does intercepting motor signals allow people to taste simulated stuffs?

Hmm, now that I think about it...

Also, I think they take information out of the LN. So, the only real source is the LN I guess.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

They can already use brain signals to control stuffs without touching the brain itself by wearing a mesh sensor net over the top of the head. Interjecting signals to fool the brain can't be that far off. Have your heard of the theory that deep fear in haunted houses could be due to a strong electromagnetic field messing with the brain?

Where is everyone getting their info on what the Nerve Gear is pls? I used Wikipedia (which I know not to be accurate), and also Wikia. To me the desc implies that the gears interact with the brain, also please ask yourselves how does intercepting motor signals allow people to taste simulated stuffs?

Because the Nerve Gear takes the place of your body. This is just common sense. It simulates taste by pretending to be your tongue and sending nerve signals. It reacts to movement by pretending to be your arms and receiving nerve signals. It's not a fake brain, it's a fake body.

It seems to me that you just don't have the slightest clue how the nervous system works in the first place. Brain science is wicked complicated so I can't say I know anything about that, but the theories underlying the Nerve Gear don't rely on that. You mention the headsets that can read brain signals, and yes those are exactly what is being extrapolated into the Nerve Gear, but that has absolutely nothing to do with interfering with the inner workings of the brain. It's just reading the signals that are being given off.

Think of the brain as a black box. It receives inputs, and produces outputs. We have no idea how it works, and it doesn't even matter how it works. If you put in the right inputs, you can get the right outputs. That's all there is to it. Male and female brains might have different inner workings but that doesn't matter in the slightest when we can only deal with inputs and outputs.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Clarste

snip

Let me ask something to clarify. What exactly does the NervGear can or can't read from our brain?

Take in mind the context of what I've been talking about from the previous posts.

[EnOfEridu]

As far as i remember, the NervGear seems to read the brain, not only "motoric" functions. But, someone commented that the LN says so. I should have to watch the first ep to see if they mention something, but really, i think it has not been clarified so it's open to speculation. And since has been said, if you simulate just "motion" signals, how can you simulate taste, smell and sight. (sound and touch are more or less motiony so).

I'm merely speculating using available information from the anime. And my leaking memory.