Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai NEXT - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[frivolity]

Originally Posted by Sackett

Sigh... once again everyone seems to have forgotten the beginning of this story and so are missing the point.

Yozora:

Yozora is the one who created the "Neighbor's Club" for her and Kodaka. She did so long before anyone else in this band of merry misfit misanthropists joined up. Obviously Yozora has some very serious issues. She has an "air friend" in high school for goodness sake. Something really bad happened to her, and her memory of "Taka" has become this talisman for her. A symbol of everything she has lost. Her "precious" that she has to protect. This has been implied for a long time, but is finally coming to the surface.

Yozora never intended this club to be a way to find and make new friends. It was always intended as a way for her to create a "safe place" to reconnect with Kodaka. A way to control and manage re-establishing a friendship that is so very precious to her, and still protect "Taka" and make sure that her beloved memory isn't damaged.

Yozora is scared. She's scared to make friends, but aches for friendship. It's the hedgehog dilemma from Evangelion. "Taka" is the one person she managed to make a connection with and so she is exerting and risking herself to try and reconnect with Kodaka in a way she'd never do for another person. She's been failing miserably, but that she tries at all is amazing considering her personality.

Sena:

Sena is the character that ruined all that. Sena suddenly appeared and forced her way into the Neighbor's Club, ruining everything that Yozora had planned. From Yozora's perspective Sena just waltzed in and selfishly turned the Neighbor Club into supporting what she wanted. That's what the "I wish you never existed" meant. It's not that Yozora really hates Sena that much, it's just that Sena's existence keeps ruining her plans to get closer to Kodaka.

Don't forget that Sena joined because she wanted to make friends with other girls, not because she was interested in Kodaka. Although Sena later came to be attracted to Kodaka in way she isn't to other boys, in a real sense Yozora is Sena's main target. Might I ask you again, whose picture does Sena have pasted to the ceiling above her bed?

The obvious way to read the subtext of their recent fight this episode is that Sena was upset about Yozora's highlighting of her childhood friendship with Kodaka because Yozora and Sena are rivals for Kodaka's affection. However it is just as easily read as Sena being upset because she wants to be closer to Yozora, and the childhood friendship with Kodaka is getting in the way.

Was Sena telling Yozora to let go of the past and let Kodaka choose Sena? Or was she telling Yozora to let go of the past and develop a new friendship with her instead of holding onto the past one with Kodaka? Which one is it? Perhaps it's both of them at the same time.

Sena is slowly getting Yozora to think of her as a friend, and I think that scared Yozora. It's usually assumed here that Yozora doesn't like Sena because she feels Sena is trying to entice Kodaka away from her. There is some of that, but there is also a sense that Yozora doesn't like Sena because she feels Sena is try to entice her away from Kodaka.

The whole relationship of Sena, Kodaka, and Yozora is one of the more messed up love triangles I've seen in some time.

The other most notable thing here is that Sena finally achieved what she's been saying she wanted for sometime. To be the one that makes Yozora cry and run away, vengeance for all the times Yozora has done that to her. Was Sena all that happy about it? Didn't look like it to me.

Kodaka is clearly playing dense. In fact all of them are. Yozora and Sena are both well aware that their club has essential become a group of friends. Yozora will not admit it because she feels making additional friends threatens what she has with Kodaka. Sena has actually admitted it, and then took it back, mainly because admitting it would give Yozora even more power over her.

Truthfully that why all of them, even Rika, is hesitant to call each other friends and continues with the masquerade that they are "practicing" for when they get friends. Who ever admits they are friends first, loses. Specifically they cede power to the other, will they return the friendship? Or will there be a rejection? Everyone in this club has been burned before by false friends. That why no one is willing to take the first step.

Oh, and of course:

c'est si bon!

Good summary of the episode. Never thought of the club as a form of multi-party prisoner's dilemma before. It's in everyone's best interest to avoid admitting their relationship regardless of what the others do, so nobody ends up doing so.

[potchip]

Though Sena doesn't subscribe to the whole self interest or anyone else's best interest. She's 'just do it'

[NoemiChan]

They're making a movie... or rather a story based on real people... meh...

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Sackett

Sigh... once again everyone seems to have forgotten the beginning of this story and so are missing the point..

Just out of curiosity, who's "everyone" (since I can only assume you don't mean it literally) and why do you think they're missing the point? Whilst what you described was (mostly) true, the main point still seemed to be that Yozora wasn't doing herself or anyone else any favours by having that perspective and needed to get over her past relationship with Kodaka with the help of some harsh but needed words, which as far as I'm aware is what "everyone" is saying. Feel free to correct me on that though.

Frankly I was sympathetic to Yozora because i thought the story was being harsher to her than it needed to be (Why can't she value her past relationship with Kodaka? It may have gone a little overboard but she could just tone it down. She doesn't have to "let go") but that doesn't change what the story's point was.

[potchip]

I thought the point of the story is not for the characters to change their eccentric personalities - their oddity makes them, and the series. Rather it is for viewers to discover their more desirable attributes and in time to even tolerate/like their oddities in combination.

Those desire for a character to NOT be who they are, if granted makes for a rather boring show. I don't understand the pursuit of a 'perfect' character personality-wise, when it is clearly the wrong show for it.

For example, next episode will likely be interpreted yet again differently within the viewership. Some will claim it is just payback, or the story's intention to teach a lesson/making a negative example of a character. Personally I find the flaws shown making the character more endearing instead....

[Haak]

I don't think anybody is saying they need to outright change their eccentric personalities to be perfect...

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Haak

I don't think anybody is saying they need to outright change their eccentric personalities to be perfect...

I don't know; the impression I got from people who have issues with certain characters, not just Yozora, is that they tend to go "If so-and-so weren't like this..." or "When would so-and-so stop being like that..." etc.

Implying that they should all work towards normalcy.

[mironicus]

Their eccentric personalities prevented them to become friends with other people the whole time.

The whole story is about "change". They become more social, they are less selfish, they get along and they start to think about each other. They are now able to become real good friends because of this changes.

[Marcus H.]

Implying that they should all work towards normalcy.

Not normalcy per se. Yozora just stop being a betch towards Sena and particular towards Yukimura.

Now that I noticed it, Yukimura has started to speak without anyone's cues.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I don't know; the impression I got from people who have issues with certain characters, not just Yozora, is that they tend to go "If so-and-so weren't like this..." or "When would so-and-so stop being like that..." etc.

Implying that they should all work towards normalcy.

"Should" for whom? A lot of the time, their eccentricities are what stands between them and what they want. So, yes, they "should", for their own sake, learn to at least tamper themselves.

For us? Well, yeah, if they're not crazy, there's no story and we aren't entertained.

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by Haak

Just out of curiosity, who's "everyone" (since I can only assume you don't mean it literally) and why do you think they're missing the point? Whilst what you described was (mostly) true, the main point still seemed to be that Yozora wasn't doing herself or anyone else any favours by having that perspective and needed to get over her past relationship with Kodaka with the help of some harsh but needed words, which as far as I'm aware is what "everyone" is saying. Feel free to correct me on that though.

Frankly I was sympathetic to Yozora because i thought the story was being harsher to her than it needed to be (Why can't she value her past relationship with Kodaka? It may have gone a little overboard but she could just tone it down. She doesn't have to "let go") but that doesn't change what the story's point was.

By "everyone" I meant those that seem more interested in scoring points as to who is better, Yozora or Sena- particularly in the shipping sense.

This then leads everyone to focus on "who is a better girlfriend for Kodaka" and to view every interaction between Sena and Yozora as a rivalry.

The bitter friendship between Yozora and Sena is just as essential to the story as their relationships with Kodaka. It is a love triangle, but it's not just two girls fighting over a guy. They're fighting about how close should they be.

This episode made everything explicit and brought out in the open what has always been the real issue of the show.

Referencing TVTropes Triang Relationships page:

Kodaka wants a platonic type 8 relationship. "Why can't all three of them be friends"

Sena wants type 7, a platonic friendship with Yozora and a romance with Kodaka. Yozora's childhood friendship with Kodaka is blocking both of those connections. "Why can't you just let go of the past."

Yozora views the whole thing as type 6, she and Kodaka have made a connection, and then this Sena girl came along and is trying to break them apart (trying to turn it into type 7). Both in the sense that Sena is a rival trying to replace Yozora as Kodaka's friend/girlfriend, and in the sense that Sena is trying to replace Taka in Yozora's heart. "They aren't three, they're just two plus one."

"Everyone" focuses on the rivalry between Sena and Yozora for Kodaka, and ignores the second aspect of Sena trying to connect with Yozora- and how Yozora feels threatened by that.

It's further complicated by the fact that Yozora doesn't know how she feels about Kodaka. Is it a purely platonic friendship, or is it a budding romance of childhood friends. Yozora thought it was the first until Rika exposed her to the idea of "friends" kissing. Now she's starting feel attracted to Kodaka as a romance partner.

Is that because he's the only friend she has, and so she's mistaking friendship for romance? Or is this the long lasting romance that started out as friends? Yozora is a very shy girl and needs time and calm to sort this out. Instead she's getting all this pressure and urgency because Sena is making moves. I can completely understand Yozora's viewpoint and frustration.

Doesn't mean I like Yozora, as she's certainly one of the harshest Ice Queens I've seen. But I don't particularly care for Sena either, as she's arrogant and significantly lacks self-control.

Most people are cluing in that Sena's goal is the most closely compatible with Kodaka's goal. Just have Sena and Kodaka in a romance, while they are both a platonic friend to Yozora. Everybody is happy.

Except why is Kodaka's goal the valid one?

And why are Kodaka's romance preferences not considered? It's pretty clear that Kodaka likes demure, modest, chaste, and intelligent girls. Preferably with long dark hair, and perhaps a little tomboyish.

Yozora is the girl closest to Kodaka's preferences, if only she would drop the harsh, mean, Ice Queen persona. Which is in fact a mask, one that she has worn so long that she doesn't even know how to take it off any more- unless she's with "Taka." This episode was the first time Sena was able to really crack that mask open a bit and show the shy, terrified tomboy inside.

As a side note, another thing to take away from the last two episodes is that Yozora is suffering from some gender confusion. She apparently wants to be seen as a boy and not a girl. Is this just because the last time she had a friendship with Taka he saw her as a boy? Or is there something more going on?

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Not normalcy per se. Yozora just stop being a betch towards Sena and particular towards Yukimura.

What are you going on about?

So what if her intentions weren't exactly to help Yukimura? What matters is for Yukimura herself to have something to believe in.

And from what I've heard, Yozora has a hard time saying no to Yukimura. Would need to check the LN for that though.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

"Should" for whom? A lot of the time, their eccentricities are what stands between them and what they want. So, yes, they "should", for their own sake, learn to at least tamper themselves.

While that's one way the story could go, another is that they realize that they have no reason to conform to the norm and become someone that they are not just to do so...

And lets face it, they're not exactly interested in 'bettering' themselves.

[garbage]

Originally Posted by Sackett

Sigh... once again everyone seems to have forgotten the beginning of this story and so are missing the point.
~ snip

careless generalizations like that are hardly helpful in discussion. In fact it sounds outright patronizing, elitist and downright condescending, as if other people don't have the brains enough to think things through.Even if you don't mean it that way, And no i don't think we're missing the point, if there is even only ONE SINGLE POINT in this show/episode for that matter. the rest...TL;DR sorry.
regardless Yozora is plainly annoying a lot of times and really in need of being brought down a notch, for her own sake too,towards to her goal of getting friends (or romance), stated (or otherwise), towards kodaka (or some other person).
BTW Sena is annoying a lot of times too but she gets hers quite frequently enough from Yozora & others...
I do get your gripes about excesses in shipping though.

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Fixed for correctness.

err...KodakaXKobato ....that's taboo territory.
actually I'm all for Rika end, which I actually mean I prefer Rika over all the other girls, for myself . For Kodaka? who cares let him choose who he wants,everyone or no one, did u mean SaintessHeartXKobato ?

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by garbage

TL;DR sorry.

That's why you miss the point.

[Haak]

Well that's just to be expected isn't it? Not everyone is going to come to the same conclusions about what the focus of the story is.

For example...

Originally Posted by Sackett

The bitter friendship between Yozora and Sena is just as essential to the story as their relationships with Kodaka. It is a love triangle, but it's not just two girls fighting over a guy. They're fighting about how close should they be.

This episode made everything explicit and brought out in the open what has always been the real issue of the show.

Whilst I'm perfectly willing to take your word for it (because it would definitely make the story more interesting), frankly i didn't get much sense of Sena trying to connect with Yozora and Yozora getting scared at all in this episode. What I saw really was just two girls fighting over a guy.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Sackett

And why are Kodaka's romance preferences not considered? It's pretty clear that Kodaka likes demure, modest, chaste, and intelligent girls. Preferably with long dark hair, and perhaps a little tomboyish.

That would be Yukimura with long hair That is why Rika has been changing her outfit, to see what pushes Kodaka's buttons, the unsaid message she is sending is "I can be whatever or whoever you want senpai", even Kobato

As a side note, another thing to take away from the last two episodes is that Yozora is suffering from some gender confusion. She apparently wants to be seen as a boy and not a girl. Is this just because the last time she had a friendship with Taka he saw her as a boy? Or is there something more going on?

I have said it before, it is obvious that Yozora's violent behavior prevented her from having many friends, but her intentions from the start to dress as a boy is not attract attention from the opposite sex because she was once almost rapped (probably by someone she thought was her friend). In her mind if she looks like a boy (or asexual) she would not be raped again. Also, in her interactions to Sena it is clear that in her mind rape is the worst kind of humiliation.

[Libros]

Originally Posted by ogon_bat

I have said it before, it is obvious that Yozora's violent behavior prevented her from having many friends, but her intentions from the start to dress as a boy is not attract attention from the opposite sex because she was once almost rapped (probably by someone she thought was her friend). In her mind if she looks like a boy (or asexual) she would not be raped again. Also, in her interactions to Sena it is clear that in her mind rape is the worst kind of humiliation.

Where did you find out about this? when did this happen? Is that from one of the connect novels?

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Libros

Where did you find out about this? when did this happen? Is that from one of the connect novels?

This is my speculation, but since the author has said only 1/3 of the story has been told, I expect this to be disclosed later on (as well as more details about Yukimura's family).

[Libros]

Originally Posted by ogon_bat

This is my speculation, but since the author has said only 1/3 of the story has been told, I expect this to be disclosed later on (as well as more details about Yukimura's family).

I see. A development like that isn't impossible, I suppose.

[potchip]

Originally Posted by ogon_bat

This is my speculation, but since the author has said only 1/3 of the story has been told, I expect this to be disclosed later on (as well as more details about Yukimura's family).

It appears the meaning of speculation and expectancy is somewhat lost to you. Whilst it is somewhat plausible about what you speculated for someone who's not familiar with LNs and modern Japanese sub culture, it is very unlikely.

The more likely explanation is simply, Yozora being a shut-in, gets her social cues from the internet. Whereas normal children learn to interact with with each other, she has a somewhat warped view. Rape is a common theme in many a Japanese online novels/cell phone novels popular amongst teenage girls.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_phone_novel

Just like her 'dress sense', it's trendy and seemingly popular, but the meaning is lost to her.

As for the part about the possibility of almost being raped and wishing it on someone else, I can assure you such things do not exist.