2010-10-06, 05:04 | Link #1481 |
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How about this? Battler was, indeed, never on the island. Things went just as they usually went, meaning that Ange was there. They all died because of the explosion, and when this news reached Battler's ears, he went through an existential crisis and severe depression. In order to overcome it, he had a sex-change and now goes as Ushiromiya Ange. Oh, and Amakusa is Asumu's son - i.e. the other Battler.
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2010-10-06, 10:50 | Link #1482 | |
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For the real story? Let's say Battler actually fully remembers his sin, but didn't think it was important. Then he reads the message bottles from Beatrice, and, suddenly, it all makes sense to him... In other words, the first 4 stories are all targetted directly at Battler, but to some extent coded. Episodes 1 and 2 are meant to tell him it was all his fault, and are kindof coded with things he'd notice but other people wouldn't. Episodes 3 and 4 are from Ange, and tell him that, no matter what he did, she still wants him to come home. No idea about Chiru. |
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2010-10-06, 11:20 | Link #1483 |
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It's not just what Eva does though. Assume for the sake of argument that he really didn't go. What follows?
Battler has no known reason to capitalize on the disaster and disappear from wherever he was. So at the time of the incident he should still be somewhere, and he shouldn't get any news about the disaster before October 6th when Captain Kawabata and the police discover it. Unless he inexplicably doesn't leave his home/apartment/whatever for the entire weekend of the 4th to the 6th, someone somewhere would've seen him out to eat, at a store, in a park, something like that. Sure, the police don't initially know which members of the family were present. However, they will very quickly track down Ange and Kyrie's father, verifying Ange is alive. They will also presumably look for Battler either there or at his last known address, and if anyone saw him during the weekend, they'll know he wasn't on the island. Logically, they shouldn't even need that, they'd probably just find him. If he weren't on the island, there's just about no chance of Ange and the police and thus the public in general not knowing all about it. But even if nobody saw him, and thus nobody can initially verify whether he went, what reason does he have to evade being located and vanish for 12 years? He's not in line to inherit the family assets if Eva is alive, and even if she weren't, Ange would just get saddled with it anyway and he'd have to know that. He wasn't on the island so he has no dark secret to cover up or culprit to evade or urgent business to attend. Basically, if he didn't go, why make the effort to convince the world and his sister that he did? The alternative would be to suggest he was actually involved with the incident somehow, and disappeared according to plan...
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2010-10-10, 02:46 | Link #1486 |
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The Okonogi phone call was there to explain the fight between Ange and Kyrie's relatives on the island at the end of arc 4 in 1998.
That is, to explain that Amakusa was actually sent along with her to kill off not only the Sumaderas following Ange, in order to ensure Okonogi no longer had them looking over his shoulder and leveraging him, but also to kill off Ange as well, so he wouldn't have to worry about her either(as Eva was at that point deceased). Therefore the fight scene was actually revealed to have not been the Stakes killing everyone, but Amakusa with a high caliber sniper rifle hidden nearby, and the events of that fight scene were likely followed by Ange being executed along with them. |
2010-10-11, 07:37 | Link #1487 | |
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First of all, what would that promise be? It is implied many times that "Beatrice"/Yasu always wanted to get out of the island together with her loved one so her promise with Battler should be something along this lines. After that we all know he wouldn't go to Rokkenjima during the next 6 years. In Yasu's point of view, it would seen that he forgot the promise since the cousins come, at least, once in a year. Then George appeared offering the opportunity to make her dream come true (Poor bastard...) so she must have taken this chance to forget Battler and move on. Then in 1986, Battler returned because of two reasons: ~His dad's request ~The promise made with Yasu And I say that Battler still loved Yasu and Yasu still loved Battler at that time Why I think that way: ~Battler didn't fall in love ever since Yasu and when he learned about George and "Shannon" (Probably prepared for that kind of thing to happen, because he was gone for a long time), thought about starting a serious relantionship. ~"Shannon" remembered everything about Battler six years ago. (And of couse, almost let him touch her breast lol kidding) Of course, Yasu wasn't expecting this. So, She made a bet and, to do so, used the epitaph (Almost like tossing a coin to choose what you'll do) and bet on a miracle About the messages in the bottles: They were indeed written and trown at the sea by Yasu in case of the worst: Nobody solving the epitaph. If the disaster didn't occur it would be just a tale. If it did it would serve as a way to find the truth. Meaning that it was like a will to her. Well, that's my 'truth' (What I think). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Btw, Has anyone thought about Erika being alive? I mean, if Shakannon is true (What I belive is the case), wouldn't mean there were 16 people on Rokkenjima? And yet: Even if you do join us there are 17 people. I believe that, of course, she didn't take part on the events occurred on Rokkenjima. But.... I have a theory about it: When Erika said she was going to accept the truth about herself, she belived that she was dead. However Bern might have lied to her, to use her as a piece. When the duel between BeatBatora and Erika was about to happen, Battler asked Beato if that was okay, almost like it would reveal Beatrice's 'heart' |
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2010-10-11, 08:16 | Link #1488 |
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If Yasu has to exist for Battler to return, there is a very strong argument to be made that he didn't forget anything. If Rudolf couldn't bring him back (and Rudolf says several times throughout multiple episodes that he groveled just about as hard as he possibly could), and if it wasn't the family's state (remember, in Lion's world the family is stable and succession and inheritance are not at issue, and even if financial problems arose, Kinzo and Lion would probably be able to fix them), then the existence of this person is just about the only reason he returned.
Of course that could or could not be the genesis of the "sin," but one way or another it seems like that's the reason he came back. Could that be what Beatrice meant in ep4? The "true" Ushiromiya Battler had a sin and would remember it. Because the "true" Ushiromiya Battler did. That's why he went to the island. Battler didn't forget the promise/sin, everyone else did, and just assumed it was his fault too. Thus, the fictional/meta-fictional Battler doesn't remember something he should have.
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2010-10-11, 08:31 | Link #1489 |
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I don't think Battler remembered his "promise", there is absolutely nothing that suggests he did.
Two are the factors that caused Battler to change his mind and go back to the Ushiromiya's family register: 1) The death of both of his grandparents from his mother's side 2) Rudolf's prostration and sincere (really?) apology So in the world where Lion Ushiromiya is the apparent heir, one or both of those two events didn't happen. I must say that the death of both Battler's grandparents just before the family meeting of 1986, which is said by Beatrice herself to be a very peculiar year, sounds very suspicious to me. I wonder if there's Kyrie behind this.
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2010-10-11, 08:58 | Link #1490 | |
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(Or it could have all been coincidental ) |
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2010-10-11, 09:16 | Link #1491 | |||
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But other than that, yeah, absolutely no evidence at all. Quote:
However, if Battler had an intensely private and personal reason for his return, a reason never communicated to anyone in public, then no subsequent viewers/readers/authors/thinkers/whatever would be aware of this motive. The only way to even find such a motive would be to dig it out of the guts of the text, assuming there exists enough buried in there to suggest an alternative explanation. Rudolf seemed quite surprised that his most recent attempts to persuade Battler actually worked. I'm not sure he ever expected that they would. Is it not possible, however, that they didn't? "Rudolf can't persuade him = Battler doesn't come back" does not imply "Battler does come back = Rudolf persuaded him," but Battler is always free to allow his father to think that. Quote:
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2010-10-11, 10:57 | Link #1492 |
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In EP 4 Battler says, to Beatrice in Meta-World after the Piece-Beatrice tells him he sinned, he didn't have to go to the family conference - it was his choice to do so. So something in current Oct 5th 1986 made Battler come back and this factor was not present in the alternative Oct 5th 1986. Whatever made Battler return must have come from within Rokkenjima more than outside of it.
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2010-10-11, 11:56 | Link #1493 | |||||
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As I said there's absolutely no hint of Battler returning because he remembered the promise, and actually there is strong evidence of the contrary. Plus if Battler really remembered from the very start, the whole tragedy would have never happened, probably. Quote:
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I am fairly sure that what Meta Battler said about the reason that made him come back is exactly as it was told in EP4. Quote:
Remember, what we have concluded on lack of evidence. A lack of evidence that you wouldn't normally expect means nothing, but the lack of evidence of something you would expect is suspicious. It was never said what kind of death befall on Battler's grandparents, and this is something I would expect. Quote:
Since we know Rudolf is the primary cause of Battler's return, it is quite possible that the changes of the two worlds affected Rudolf himself which in turn affected Battler. I can't see why you should dismiss this possibility.
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2010-10-11, 13:10 | Link #1494 | ||||||
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That's a problem. Also, you continue to be unable to distinguish between Ushiromiya Battler the person and Ushiromiya Battler the fictional character. Quote:
Therefore, if Writer X believes Battler returned because Rudolf apologized, they could and would write Battler saying "That's why I came back." They cannot know why "real" Battler actually did come back. We've learned this lesson before, with Kinzo. Who was the "real" Ushiromiya Kinzo? We have no earthly idea. His characterization is broad and impressive, yet we have come to draw conclusions about his true motives. In fact, Yasu existing at all requires that we make assumptions about Kinzo's true motives, assumptions that have never directly appeared in the fiction. As for Battler having an ulterior motive, it's quite heavily supported textually.
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What that sequence is clearly showing us is that Battler's departure is an independent event. Lion doesn't exist, Battler leaves. Lion exists, Battler leaves. We are then shown a difference: Lion doesn't exist, Battler returns. Lion exists, Battler does not return. The conclusion dangled before our faces is "Battler's return is conditioned on something which exists when Lion does not, but his departure is not so conditioned." If that isn't a hint, it's sloppy writing of the highest order.
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2010-10-11, 14:04 | Link #1495 | ||
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It is practically assured that 1-2 authors and 3-4 authors are distinct, see above. Ep2 author might very faintly mention a promise (Beatrice's "I keep my promises" and related meta-dialogue have to either derive from a bottle text or be present in it) and Ep4 author brings up the idea of Battler's sin. Ep7 author appears to be so certain that these are the same that they go and write that outright. But assuming we trust Ep7 author any, how the hell do they know of either?
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2010-10-11, 14:05 | Link #1496 | ||
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As for Battler and meta-Battler, your arguments do not stand, because the Metaworld is not fiction at all according to the author theory, the games are. The metaworld is a layer of existence that comes as a consequence of both real world and fictional world, however Meta Battler most certainly comes from the real Battler, which means he's a perfect carbon copy of the original. The story wouldn't make any sense otherwise. Quote:
In Lion's world there is an apparent heir. In the regular world there isn't any. In the normal world everyone, even Battler, has a shot at becoming the heir. In Lion's world, Lion is the only one who can take that place.
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2010-10-11, 14:57 | Link #1497 | |||
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And your argument, besides, makes not a lick of sense and has not an ounce of support. "I am certain this is the absolute truth, because I feel like it is the absolute truth." That line of argument can use some work. Again, I don't care if you think it, but you're throwing around absolutes here that you have no right to use. Quote:
The meta-world is fiction "of a sort." Exactly what kind of fiction, we don't know. It could be anywhere from higher-order thought and rumination overlaid on the "real world" to a portion of the in-universe fiction itself. We don't know. We may never know. Otherwise, I mostly agree with you up to that point. Then you go into this insane and wholly unsupported claim that Meta-Battler must be a carbon copy of "Real" Battler. Ummmmm, why? Because "the story wouldn't make sense?" Nonsense. The story can make perfect sense as long as the Battler in that story works the way the author thinks Ushiromiya Battler worked. Whether that depiction of Ushiromiya Battler is correct is known only to Ushiromiya Battler himself. Core aspects of his personality are undoubtedly correct, else people who knew him would object to the portrayal (such as Ange). However, Ushiromiya Battler knew things that nobody else knew. He had thoughts and feelings that nobody else had. And Meta-Battler may have finally understood that, and in so doing (ironically) came to that understanding of "himself." To call him a "carbon copy" is absolute nonsense. No one can be sure of that, and that aside, I believe that it is one of Ryukishi's major thematic points in all of Umineko that people cannot easily be understood solely from secondary sources (Kinzo, Eva, Natsuhi, the list goes on). Does that mean I'm right? I don't know. But you don't know either, so don't tell people their claims can't stand up to your invisible intuitive personal belief as to what the absolute truth is in a story that's missing its final chapter, and may be left with some very large interpretive gaps even after that. Quote:
There is considerable evidence, based on his fascination with the portrait and unfamiliarity with the epitaph, that Battler had no idea it even existed prior to October 4, 1986. It's possible, but seemingly unlikely. He'd either have to have secretly come to Rokkenjima or had somebody contact him to tell him about the epitaph. Otherwise, how can something motivate him if he doesn't know about it?
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2010-10-11, 18:52 | Link #1498 |
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Generally Im not on the same side of an argument as Renall, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and agree with him on this one. He certainly has a stronger grasp on the relative layers of fiction, Jan-Poo, and with regards to the Promise relationship, his conclusions are based in whats established in the text, rather than inferences about "what Ryukishi means" and "what makes sense".
The idea that we should just ignore that discrepancy between the two worlds "because thats not what Ryukishi is trying to say" is illogical. Moreover, no matter how you approach Author theory, Meta-Battler, BATTLER, and "Battler" are all fictional constructs from our point of view. And the fact of the matter is, we are hit over the head multiple times with the fact that the Pieces are not aware of everything, and that the Game Master is more informed than us. Extrapolate that the "Game Master" is the writer of the stories, and it makes sense that the writer is leveraging their awareness of the "truth" to make hints within the fiction pointing towards the real truth. What is the point of Battler's promise, if it doesn't affect his decision to return to Rokkenjimma? Why does it affect the outcome of the murders if he doesn't remember it at all? Remember, in Episode 4 the "promise" was brought up only after the majority of the twilights had taken place. Rendering it rather irrelevant to the actual deaths in that story. So if we're going to take Episode 4 and Piece/Meta Battler's reaction to the "sin" question (which at this point has only been hinted to be related to Battler's relationship with Shannon/Yasu) literally, then the promise itself is simply not related to the murders at all. And therefore, if it's not really related, how does "Battler's Sin" amplify the tragedy? Battler simply being there isnt enough of an explanation for the murders to be worse. He had to have some kind of reaction to it, which would imply he holds some memory of it. That being said, the idea that "19 years of difference could mean anything regarding why Battler returned or not, it doesnt necessarily have anything to do with Lion/Yasu". Sure it doesn't. Then why would Ryukishi even make a point of Battler not being there in Episode 7 unless it was relevant? And there really weren't any hinted reasons as to why Battler wouldn't be there, since Rudolph continues to beg him, and pretty much all other conditions (from Battler's perspective) are the same as in the Yasu-Rokkenjimma aside from the existence of Yasu herself. Battler arbitrarily decided that Rudolph's begging was good enough while Shannon existed, but it wasn't enough when she didn't? You assume Ryukishi is really lazy, then. |
2010-10-11, 19:10 | Link #1499 | ||
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2010-10-11, 19:28 | Link #1500 | |||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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This is a game, time will say if I was wrong or right. And not much time left at this point. Quote:
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Why this Meta-existence is almost like Battler but not 100% like him? The metaworld doesn't make much sense if the things you see in it come from somewhere. If Meta-Battler is, like it seems apparent even to you, a transposition of real Battler in the real world, then it is only logical to assume he is a copy. So we know where Meta-Battler comes from, he comes from real Battler. But where those differences you claim existing come from? And what kind of intervention caused the come to being of Meta-Battler to not get all the qualities of real Battler but just part of them? Quote:
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What I meant there was simply: "I know already that you won't agree with me, but there isn't much I can do about that except telling you that I don't agree with the very basic assumption that makes you think otherwise". Quote:
There is evidence that once they understand that gold=true they automatically take the heir issue a lot more seriously. And I don't think it can be said it is a sudden switch of their thinking. They all must have thought that the epitaph was meant to decide the new heir long time before the actual events of 1986. Evidences are the whole adults (except Krauss and Natsuhi but they are biased) in EP5 and Rosa and Eva in EP3 which think it's absolutely a given that Eva became the new family head. Hell they don't even think that Krauss can possibly make any serious opposition to that fact, and they take for granted that everyone else will acknowledge Eva as the new heir.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2010-10-11 at 19:42. |
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