2012-05-10, 21:40 | Link #28741 | |||
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However I am all for a "peaceful" version of the story. Umineko isn't a mystery: it's an anti-fantasy. I agree though that it was an accident. My thoughts about it differ slightly. I'm still trying to tie some loose ends with my accident theory. I'm also unsure about the time Yasu's bottles were written. I still believe that they contain almost exactly what we see as the Episodes (I know this is a discussion of its own), and if I believe that I would conclude that the bottles were written afterwards. How can this tie into an accident theory I wonder... Maybe despite Yasu's existence as Shkanontrice, his/her bottles were just a way to deal with the pain, similar to Tohya's reasons for the forgeries. The bottles weren't Yasu's "plans" at all, but a way for Beatrice to get her message out to somebody. It can tie in with the Ikuko = Yasu theory which I'm not a fan of though but whatever...
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2012-05-11, 00:03 | Link #28742 | |
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I've been looking at EP5 differently lately, ever since I noted that Erika had explained to Battler exactly what she expected would happen after the gold's discovery would be revealed to the whole family (although instead of the contents of Erika's predictions, we readers got the Kinzo vision instead). I'm beginning to think that the fake murders were as much for messing with Erika (like in EP6) as they were for messing with Natsuhi. The conspirators may not all have had the same agenda. An example scenario would be: there are people (say Jessica, Battler, Krauss etc.) participating for the sake of screwing with Erika; then there are people (say Eva, Rudolf, Kyrie etc.) who play along with the anti-Erika game, but actually intend to somehow use the game to corner Natsuhi; meanwhile someone (say Yasu) is secretly real-killing the people who were hiding somewhere for the sake of the murder ruse. Something like that. Yasu survived and was in some way culpable for the accident. She expressed her guilt through fictional self-vilification. |
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2012-05-11, 07:45 | Link #28743 | |
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Shkanon(trice) died for me as a theory at the latest when Will tried to confront Shannon and Kanon at the funeral scene and was denied to do so. :x And I still can't accept it as an satisfying solution.
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That theory might be wrong, sure, but we never know as we never got a decent and believable confirmation on ANYTHING. Ad 1.: Why DOES Eva have to survive in the first place?! Sure, if you believe Ange's world is the continuation fo "Prime", then that might be. But even if we suppose that "troll theory" is true (I don't find it in any way less trolling than "lol Maid holds bazillions of personas who "die" on a whim", seriously), why is it impossible for Eva to surivive? o_O I don't see at all where you're coming from. Ad 5.: And Shannon going over to Battler in Kanon's clothes just for the heck of it, letting him out, switching personalities again because it's oh-so-fun and convenient and letting the other "die" because...well...she's in the mood for it, is better? oO I thought that someone had already established waaay back that it was perfectly possible for "normal" Kanon (or anyone else at that) to leave the room during the timespan Erika was sealing the windows from the outside, which is a plausible solution for the logic error...?
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Last edited by Saorin; 2012-05-11 at 08:27. |
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2012-05-11, 09:57 | Link #28744 | |
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But for the location check to have any value whatsoever, Erika's retroactive room sealings (at least for the guesthouse) must occur at the time of the location check. Otherwise, as you said, the solution to the Logic Error is just "Kanon left the room before Erika finished sealing it," which is silly and something Erika should have thought about. Basically the entire Logic Error took place within a compressed single moment even though it isn't physically possible for Erika to have sealed the two guesthouse rooms, teleported to Battler's room and repaired that chain, and then for Battler to have switched places with Kanon while Erika was distracted. We realize that these activities all took time (and largely only Erika's bathroom adventure was described in the Logic Error debate as taking any length of time), but we basically just kind of ignore them. Things like "How long did it take Kanon to get to the room Battler and Erika were in?" are basically handwaved as irrelevant values. It's the old "spherical horse in a vacuum" joke, used for the sake of argument.
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2012-05-11, 10:07 | Link #28745 | |
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re: Ad 1.: It is more credible, because compared to the "troll theory" it does not disregard 6 Episodes completly. re: Ad 5.: 95% of Umineko consists of the thoughts of people, or shows the content of fictions. Escpacially the message bottles are in my opinion, "symbolic fictional stories within physical possibilities". We already discussed, that for no one in the whole story, a real motive to kill everyone else exists. |
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2012-05-11, 10:30 | Link #28746 |
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Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Pretty much what Renall said.
There is however no way to settle logically which is the right approach to solve this particular riddle. There are substantially two kinds of riddles which challenge your problem solving abilities. There is the kind that is honest in its exposition and that is challenging because the solution itself is something that requires an high level of intelligence. There is then the kind that is "challenging" only because it tricks you with words or let you assume things never mentioned (even when such assumption is a natural process of narrative interpretation). Since in general the first kind is more appreciated to the first, most people would rather think there is an intelligent trick behind a riddle and not a stupid trick. In this specific case we also have a character who is supposed to be extremely intelligent, and one would be left with a feeling of inconsistency if Battler and Beatrice managed to win only because this superintelligent villain couldn't see an obvious hole in her defense. The instantaneous sealing of the locations checked is therefore assumed to be implied. But this kind of logic kinda fails when you consider the riddles that were used in EP8 (Erika vs Battler and Beatrice vs Ange), which are textbook examples of riddles that seems to be challenging only because of a lack of a clear exposition of the setting. None of them would even raise a question in someone who'd actually be there. Anyway discussing whether the solution of the final EP6 is shkanon or not is kinda moot at this point, because shkanon is widely accepted for a plethora of others unrelated reasons. And since shkanon is practically a certainty there's no need to find another explanation for that riddle.
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2012-05-11, 10:30 | Link #28747 | |
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Eva allowed EVA to exist as a way for her to keep the catbox shut. Maybe Yasu also had reasons to keep the catbox shut and used Beatrice to do it. For what reasons would both these people have to keep it shut? I think "Troll Theory" (9 hour video theory?) is more or less what we're supposed to do though. Chiru wasn't meant to give answers. I don't agree with it, and I'm on the "Rokkenjima Bomb ACCIDENT" theory. If we just read through Requiem and think "Oh okay, that's how it was..." then it's just as bad as giving into the witch back in 1-4. Requiem's Fragment conflicts with itself even. I wouldn't go so far as deny Yasu's fragmented existence as Shkanontrice, but I would like to free Yasu from guilt...
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2012-05-11, 10:35 | Link #28748 | |||
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Still, I find the Shkanon-"solution" ridiculous. Quote:
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Also, Ep 7 was surprisingly straightforward for Ryu's style, and he said so often he wouldn't just "reveal" the truth so it would be easy to see - but then Ep7 was kinda stating it, it could be seen even if you hadn't thought about Shkanon before. So that was merely a "hint" and a "puzzle"? It's still screaming "fishy!" to me. 5.: Well, this doesn't address that "killing personalities", especially without a proper reason do to so in that particular situation is still stupid! I'm still wondering how Yasu even went about that. "Oh, you need to die now *plop*"? If it was at least triggered by something persona-related, whatever, e.g. rejection from Jessica, then I would at least see a connection... Even if I accepted Shkanontrice, all the Eps make the impression of there being a 2nd culprit (killings after the epitaph was soved, killings that differed greatly from the ritual killings or closed room killings), so either way I'd have to think there was someone capable of and willing to kill many - of course that is just my take on the whole thing. Concerning motives, I'd actually even think the exact other way : of the Ushiromiyas, almost everyone had SOME kind of motive implied for them, at least in the case of George it was even stated he'd be killing others, including his parents. I also see the point with the message bottles to which I mostly agree (though I have to say I think it had little to do with my original issue here, but okay), though I can and do still believe that they ought to have a "basic common structure", also from a mystery point of view, or else, I do find them rather pointless.
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2012-05-11, 10:58 | Link #28749 | |
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Just think about the solution that Battler proposed at first, does that really make any sense to you? Natsuhi would take Battler's place and let him outside? Is that realistic? What exactly she planned to tell Erika then? In the first place the fact that Battler prepared that "trap" with the shower suggests he knew Erika would come. How did he know that? That can be explained if he knew the room had been sealed. But how could he notice the seal from inside the room? This could work if someone outside told him, except we know that all the people that could tell him that were killed. But let's even disregard that, how did Battler know that Erika wouldn't check the most obvious place one would hide in? And how did Battler know that Erika wouldn't reseal the room from inside rather than fixing the chain? But more importantly: why Erika herself, as a character in the gameboard, would do that, if not for furthering the plans of her meta self? There is no way to make sense out of all that without using meta-logic or sounding ridiculous. When you consider all that, the shkanon gimmick isn't really that different.
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2012-05-11, 11:10 | Link #28750 | |
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Thanks Jan-Poo, that explanation is appreciated. So basically, the meta is the important factor here and the gameboard made to fit that "at any cost" and regardlessly, is that it?
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I'm not defending any other "theory" against Shkanon or whatnot, I personally just believe it's a stupid and disappointing way to wiggle out of the entire business and I also tend to believe (!) that Ryu might not be entirely honest in interviews and so on. He always made the impression to me to enjoy tricking his readers continously and leaving them dangling - if he had no problem with acknowledging Shannon's fake breasts in interviews and whatnot, why was he reluctant about being specific about that "truth" he always talked about and never said "that readers reached the truth of Shkanon / Yasu" blah? But as always, this is subjective. However, I guess as long as there's no red text from Ryukishi himself, I can go on merrily preferring other possible cat box solutions . ^_^ Well, I can also keep finding Shkanon blatantly stupid even if it was true, so.. >_>
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2012-05-11, 11:46 | Link #28751 | ||||||
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But still i would prefer the inworld solution to EP6's "Kanon does not exist in the guestroom" to be "a personality died, but the body still exists inside the room", instead of "meh he somehow died in the closet, i refuse to explain how" But overall I do have to agree with you that "shkanontrice" overall was a lame plot device and there could have been other ways. Quote:
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I sometimes have a hard time to state my point, so if you didn't understand something just ask me about it. |
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2012-05-11, 11:46 | Link #28752 | |
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Don't worry you are not alone in thinking shkanon is blatantly stupid, just ask Renall! I'm not that much judgemental about it, but I always thought it needed to have a very good explanation. There have been theories that more or less make it sound more plausible and acceptable, but to be honest I'm not 100% satisfied, and anyway I think that when you write something absolutely outrageous that's when you owe your readers an explanation, you can't just let them speculate on their own when the easier explanation "bad writing" is just around the corner. But well, I started not to bother anymore about this particular issue.
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2012-05-11, 11:48 | Link #28753 | ||
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ShKanon does constitute a ridiculous world view, but hey, some people have ridiculous world views. |
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2012-05-11, 11:51 | Link #28754 | |
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As for the seals, I seem to remember Erika making a comment about climbing around outside and Battler simply telling her they will work from whenever she wants, or did I make that up? Finally, there was a reason for the personalities to die at that point, they were needed to to fulfill the epitaph. I always thought the resistance shown in some of the games was Kanon/Shannon personalities not just giving up and getting murdered, however they still lose anyway. Of course this requires meta-logic to be at play, but since our confession implies it was always in the story that is also fine. Furthermore, the whole point about them dying at specific times was addressed by Erika when trying to beat Beatrice's riddle at the wedding: there are multiple possible truths until confirmed. From a meta standpoint, a character could have died at any point that doesn't conflict with another red truth. This is why personalities can be killed at will at the perfect time, it was retroactive. |
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2012-05-11, 11:57 | Link #28756 | |
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Yeah this would fall under the second type of riddle I explained a few posts before: i.e. lame...
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2012-05-11, 12:00 | Link #28757 |
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edit: Took too long writing this message on a mobile and got ninja'd. 8) i was responding to Saorin.
I also think that Shkannontrice is a pretty weird thing for Ryukishi to use as his central mystery in Umineko, but I think he did trap us into a certain kind thinking with episode 7. I think what it did was try to portray Yasu as a normal person, like without going into the why of her personality making abilities. And perhaps the red text flashes at the end were hints that the story didn't go 100% as nicely as portrayed. But anyways what this does is create two alternatives to why she does what she does. She's either just playing around with roles, like an actor or it's like she's insane. And if course neither answer is satisfactory. I think that the story with Tooya's brain damage and subsequent personality change (i.e. Battler's death) was the very last clue to Yasu. I personally believe Yasu suffered some kind of brain trauma as well to make her like this. However she actually came like this is not that important for understanding Umineko though. I think what's important is to know that she isn't lying, pretending or faking. If you try to believe instead that she somehow had no choice but to act this way, and say the things she did, then a while new interpretation opens up. The straight interpretation. I outline my theory in the my first signature link, with quotes from episode 1 and 2, where it seems the answer was laid out in its entirety for us. |
2012-05-11, 12:02 | Link #28758 | ||||||||||
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(and I really wonder who provided the clue about Kinzo's hometown. In Ep 1 they are thinking to the wrong location while in EP 5 there's no such problem and in EP 7 is even said the siblings all know to which city the epitaph referred... so maybe people was supposed to have troubles figuring it out due to the storyline purpose?) Quote:
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Even though the Ushiromiya might have been nicer then what one can assume they still were a wealthy family and Shannon might have been viewed as someone who was trying to trick them for money. Honestly I've various theories about how things could have gone but none of them is 'perfect'. I guess there are still too many missing pieces. Quote:
It's sort of saying: me and my childhood crush used to play cards together as a kids so now that we meet again after 6 years let's play cards again. In a fashion that's kind of depressing because it drives home that after 6 years all we might have in common are memories and the same love for card games... though at the same time, working with what we know we still have in common we can find other things we've in common and rebuild our relation... or we can realize we're really grown too far apart so well, it was nice to see each other again (or maybe it wasn't even that) but well, it's not an experience we'll look forward to repeat. So I think Shannon was searching a way to see if she could connect with Battler again as she did when they were kids... through for the others the game was likely merely a way to amuse themselves. Quote:
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If the Rokkenjima tragedy hadn't happened people who were to find the bottles might have wondered about them, maybe someone could have even reported them to the police or the Ushiromiya in fear someone WAS planning a murder but the things would end here. Quote:
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Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-05-11 at 15:26. |
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2012-05-11, 13:29 | Link #28760 | ||||
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This is counter to what we're told about Yasu, of course, but it's one way that Battler's stupidity could be explained. Quote:
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The fact that my joke solution doesn't even address Shkanon is my favorite part, because I actually wasn't thinking about it in any way when trying to be as funny as possible. In fact, the Shkanon equivalency would be a red which could instantly destroy the Battler Joke Solution. Kind of funny, that.
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