The loss of clarity in overthinking: I TOLD you Ash was in a coma!*

[iSuckAtWriting]

A cool thing about art is its malleability in interpretation. The subject of the Mona Lisa is unclear, you could spend all your time trying to figure out The Persistence of Memory, and Dogs Playing Poker is either unexpected genius or a crude representation of 1900's America or both.

But that flexibility is lost as far as "conventional" storytelling is concerned. It doesn't matter how the show is built, you'd know a story about siblings bonding when you see one.

Or would you?

Granted with Oreimo the furthest an interpretation can go would probably be about the show being a tongue and cheek look at the anime fandom, but even then someone out there is probably gonna push things further and say each character is a metaphor for the audience.

Which brings me to my main point (wait, finally?)

Overthinking our Chinese cartoons to the point where we create meaning where there is none, or something completely different from what the writers intended, if at that. Is magical girls suffering and psychotic decline the only things to that story, or is it a clever metaphor for drug use? Does playing twister or brushing someone's teeth represent some form of trust, or is it really just twister and interpersonal tooth brushing? Are the cross-shaped beams of light there because the enemies are called Angels, or did the director think they're just cool?

Looking too closely can probably fog the original story. And you could come up with the weirdest ways to justify your character analysis to boot.

In general, what's your experience with story interpretation? The theories you've crafted? The guess others have barfed? Do you just take the story at face value? But then, what about the really open ended works?

And yah I know this goes beyond anime, but this is an anime bored so...

*There's a theory that Ash from the Pokemon anime has actually been in a coma for the entire series and that everything in the show is a representation of a part of him.

[Sackett]

Chinese cartoons? I've never seen any Chinese cartoons before.

Anyway, anime is much the same as other art (and other storytelling for that matter). Sure there are some pieces of art that have multiple interpretations, but most paintings are exactly what you see represented. Portraits for example, and some historical scenes. Others have a clear metaphorical meaning. It's not too hard to understand what this one says about the french revolution.

There are also plenty of artworks that pretend to having some depth of meaning but are either overly pretentious or confused and so actually say nothing.

Much the same can be said about storytelling. Most stories are pretty straight forward in the story they are telling. Cross Game for example is pretty clearly talking about what it's talking about. Others are obviously more metaphorical while still being rather straight forward, Sailor Moon for example. Others are a confusing mishmash that never provides solid meaning.

Only some are full blown multiple meanings and deep stories. Mawaru Penguindrum, Evangelion, etc.

Some stories have a simple surface level meaning, and have a deeper underlying meaning.

So I don't really see storytelling as different from any other kind of art.

[Jan-Poo]

It has been my personal opinion since the time Evangelion and Final Fantasy VII were all the rage that the more people think, analyze and try to find meanings in works that are, in the end, meant for the masses of young people and not some exclusive circle of intellectual scholars the more they get farther from a proper understanding.

Or rather I think that, like in every thing, there is a line that shouldn't be crossed. Not thinking at all is bad, and thinking too much is equally bad... or even worse.

Sometimes some people like to go on a series of tangents starting from particulars that have generally no other function apart from adding colors and flavors to the story and build upon them complex and majestic theories, with a plethora of walls of text capable of brainwashing convince even the most skeptical of the fans. And I guess it's all good for them, I mean, I believe that they are actually having a lot of fun with that, the problem is that they are not doing a good service to the authors at all by replacing the actual message with something completely different.
Then again there are some authors that actually purposely leave their works open to various interpretations or (more often) never thought of one, but those aren't exactly the kind of artists that I love and respect; it's as if they said: "I actually have nothing in particular to say, just think and believe whatever it pleases you best".

But I guess some could say that I have no right to judge. I guess some could say that if they have fun elaborating complex theories who am I to tell them that they are doing something wrong? Of course I can't say they are, but I can say that I personally don't quite like to delve in such extreme interpretations. Moreover if they get too popular and accepted they kind of get in the way of what I really care: a proper understanding of a work.

Generally if I initiate or participate in a discussion about a particular anime or manga it's because I want to confront my impressions with those of other peoples, and it is not unusual that I learn something that I had missed or that I get confirmations of what I had already evinced. That is what I actually seek from a forum such as AS.
However I don't get anything of value (to me) if a particular thread is highjacked by a crack theory who spawns pages and pages of pointlessly animated discussions, obscuring in its wave anything else.
Unfortunately, in my experience, the advocates of the most unusual interpretations tend to be peculiarly persistent and assertive. In other words they rarely are content in exposing their "findings" and be done with them, they obnoxiously seek acceptance and recognition.

Originally Posted by Sackett

Chinese cartoons? I've never seen any Chinese cartoons before.

It's a sarcastic term spawned from 4chan I think. It makes fun of the fact (or presumed/exaggerated fact) that to most western people Chinese and Japanese are all the same, so when they see the typical Otaku watching anime they call them with disdain "Chinese cartoons".

[Triple_R]

I think that complex interpretations or theories have some value, and may in some cases even reflect what the author/director were aiming for. But I also think there's some ideas that should be considered here.


1) Occam's Razor still applies. If a simple interpretation can solidly account for whatever is being discussed, then that's probably more likely to be accurate than a more complex interpretation. With this in mind, complex theories have the most value when simpler ones don't seem to be able to account for key parts of what's being discussed.

2) Most fanservice is just fanservice. If you like it, then there's no need to find some hidden meaning behind it to justify liking it. If it works for you as fanservice, that's the main thing. On the flip-side, those who find it poor and/or unappealing as fanservice, probably aren't going to think more highly of it just because somebody makes an argument for a hidden meaning to it. Sometimes it's best to just accept taste differences, and move on.

3) Don't lose sight of the actual story. Whatever certain characters and plot points may represent at a meta or thematic level, they still need to fit the plot-as-is, and be evaluated in that vein. Absurdist or abstract comedy can be an exception here, admittedly.

4) The way an anime frames itself, and its typical tone, is important. If an anime show is aiming to be deep, it will probably give some indication of that, between its OP, its ED, the way its directed, its dialogue, its monologues, its bgm, etc... Sometimes a show is just trying to be pure zany fun, and there's nothing wrong with that, really.

[itisjustme]

Painting is suggestive in nature, storytelling's goal is to be understood, I think that's a fundamental difference. (And as an aside people like Da Vinci are once in a century genius and a well known trickster, it's not very relevant to compare that to commercial mass media productions).

I think if a story is trying to show a theme or make a point it should be visible enough, whether by tone, presentation, focus, repetition, etc. Especially in anime, given the target demographics, it's a failure or an afterthought at best if it's too obscure. If an author puts a blank page in the middle of his book you know he's trying to say something there. If Evangelion makes every effort to look mysterious and deep you know it's trying to make you think and speculate. (Although my personal opinion is that it's pretentious and pseudo philosophical instead of being the real thing but that's another matter).

On the other hand constructing grand theories based on meaningless details is rather delusional if the show makes no effort to make such details deliberately relevant. And lets face it many of those theories are born from shows that are painfully in your face about the points it does actually want to make.

My theory is that a lot of it is rationalization (in a psychological sense; Wiki actually subtitles that as excuse making). A fan likes a show for maybe something as trivial as loving a girl in it, and he wants to add metaphorical/allegorical/mythological meaning to it to embellish the show's value and justify his own fandom. I think that level of theorycrafting is rare with shows that are actually smart and subtle for the same reason.

[IceHism]

I don't think there is anything wrong in trying to find things in something regardless of whether it actually exists or not. I treat all art the same and judge each on an individual basis equally, grandiose or not. I do believe that an author's intent is far more superior, meaningful, and more true than anything the audience could ever interpret the work to be. I don't care if you don't care about an author's intent and rely on your interpretation but i can't find any reason to not put the author's intent on a pedestal.
I suppose that it comes down to how i feel about most classics. How do i know whether everyone, scholars or regular people, are just making crackpot theories or not (regardless of how accepted the theory may be) when the author is dead and hasn't elaborated on what they made their work for? I like Shakespeare but even if i accept what the scholars say about him, i still can't confirm to myself that these works mean exactly what they say. In fact, i would say the only reason i accept them is because not only do they make sense to some level but mostly because everyone else has accepted that they mean as the scholars say.

Needless to say though, making theories is fun with other fans of series. Even if it's just to circlejerk or however far removed we are from the original intent, it's fun and makes discussion just as a forum intended. We may not be right but then the point of Art and entertainment is escapism. So lighten up a bit.

Proper interpretation of work though? That requires the author to explain his thoughts imo.

[Eragon]

I guess it depends on the anime and the director.
Like, for movie example, Mulholland Drive is pretty open to interpretation. There are a ton of things in the movie that require you to think them over to make any sense of them.

A recent anime example would be Kill la Kill. Many consider it a satire on fanservice. The show itself kinda provides a context from which you can interpret something from an instance/s which you would normally take at face-value.

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It has been my personal opinion since the time Evangelion and Final Fantasy VII were all the rage that the more people think, analyze and try to find meanings in works that are, in the end, meant for the masses of young people and not some exclusive circle of intellectual scholars the more they get farther from a proper understanding.

It depends on the show. Love Hina is exactly what it is, and any attempt to interpret Keitaro as an incarnation of the Buddha seeking enlightenment is futile. But we also have series like Penguin Drum that are so full of symbolism that past a certain point its not even clear what elements of the story are actually real.

[Archon_Wing]

You have any number of sources of cultural knowledge and interpretation to fall back on to draw a conclusion about what a story is trying to get at. Sometimes, a popsicle is a popsicle, and sometimes the character in question wants to just eat a dessert-- it's not always a desire to suck on something else. Remember, folks, Freud was on crack.

It is of course, entirely possible that a show has crafted themes and thoughts outside of convention and its genius is so detached that the Hoi polloi could never grasp it, but if it is so, well I would say the line between genius and insanity tends to be that thin. Are you a genius because nobody has come up with whatever you just did, or are you crazy? Can be subjective, but in some cases we really just ignore people or take them away to a place where they can't hurt themselves with sharp objects. But sometimes the crazy person can be right too. Maybe Evangelion is actually a call against communism.

It's all a subjective look, of course. But that ultimately means your premise is flawed-- what do you mean what's known? You just described what you know. That differs from person to person; and to toss away the implications of what each individual thing would defeat the purpose of well, saying anything and dare I say it, sometimes, the work itself.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

It depends on the show. Love Hina is exactly what it is, and any attempt to interpret Keitaro as an incarnation of the Buddha seeking enlightenment is futile. But we also have series like Penguin Drum that are so full of symbolism that past a certain point its not even clear what elements of the story are actually real.

I agree with that and in fact I stated that it's not like you need to take everything at a face value. Like I said:

Not thinking at all is bad, and thinking too much is equally bad... or even worse.

There are of course shows that require more thinking than others to be fully understood or understood a bit more, Mawaru Penguindrum and Evangelion certainly are. However the fact that you are supposed to think, speculate and interpret doesn't mean that you are supposed to think, speculate and interpret... whatever pops in your mind.

In the case Penguindrum there is a certain metaphorical message that cannot be readily understood and you make a disservice to the authors by simply ignoring the hints and the keys to reach that interpretation, if everyone did so their efforts would be for naught, however, arguably, you make the same disservice by claiming they wanted to communicate something that they never meant.

Generally if some kind of interpretation is there to be seen, then once pointed out there will be very few persons that would oppose it. If only a very few persons after the explanations consider it true then either is bunk or the authors did a very poor job.