Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[Rickketik]

and how does this relate to why gsd failed?

yeah I know, it's off topic. Someone was asking for the latest results so...

Well have to agree with SZ that CE is just like High school musical, highly popular but in time, will fade out. While UC will always be a cult classic and infamous like Star wars.

I disagree with you on the SEED / High school musical comparison. (I don't think CE will be THAT irrelevant) But I agree with you on the second part. MSG will always be the definition to 'Gundam'

LMFAO at lacus... she has nothing over sheryl nome.

So it's sheryl nome I didn't even know her name. (I still need to watch Macross F) I wonder where she will be next year...

Kira is a popular character but characters with emo'ish, indecisive, self-righteousness traits really doesn't interest me. But i must be the minority.

Yes you are..

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Originally Posted by winter45

Kira is a popular character but characters with emo'ish, indecisive, self-righteousness traits really doesn't interest me. But i must be the minority.

Well Japan has changed quite a bit, young female Mecha fans outnumber young male Mecha fans in Japan, because of characters like Kira Yamato, and other bishonen pilots, that's why they top in these popularity polls.

You sadly have the men more into moe lolis, then Mecha in this younger generation.

[zeroexia]

blame the moe otakus. it's rare to have true manly characters.

[aeriolewinters]

@Sanger and zeroexia: lets just wash our hands and let them talk all they want about CE. In my opinion, the moment that they had

Spoiler:

Lacus Clyne wins, Flawless victory

was the moment that sealed the deal for the CE and put it in limbo. They could have had Shinn still losing, but CF losing something important as well, like Kira or Athrun. Some fans may go: "It's like the perfect ending for Destiny" but it doesn't accomplish anything by ending Destiny the same way they ended SEED, in which SEED's ending was infinitely better(albeit bittersweet[for me at least]) because everyone was in a struggle, before and even after the battle. The moment 'Kira' stole the spotlight, I knew nothing good was going to happen. Because the guy changed for the worse. Instead of clearly understanding what 'to be in war' would mean, the guy goes the other direction and contributes to the chaos that's happening all around him and even so, he still has the same dilemma that he has during SEED. It's like Satoshi going to a whole new area, it seems like he hasn't learned lessons from his past.

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

@Sanger and zeroexia: lets just wash our hands and let them talk all they want about CE. In my opinion, the moment that they had

Spoiler:

Lacus Clyne wins, Flawless victory

was the moment that sealed the deal for the CE and put it in limbo. They could have had Shinn still losing, but CF losing something important as well, like Kira or Athrun. Some fans may go: "It's like the perfect ending for Destiny" but it doesn't accomplish anything by ending Destiny the same way they ended SEED, in which SEED's ending was infinitely better(albeit bittersweet[for me at least]) because everyone was in a struggle, before and even after the battle. The moment 'Kira' stole the spotlight, I knew nothing good was going to happen. Because the guy changed for the worse. Instead of clearly understanding what 'to be in war' would mean, the guy goes the other direction and contributes to the chaos that's happening all around him and even so, he still has the same dilemma that he has during SEED. It's like Satoshi going to a whole new area, it seems like he hasn't learned lessons from his past.

hmm I must agree with you on that. For me I always felt like that the reason that Kira and Archangel winning so easily was for a sequel to happen because we have the trio of heroes at the end. Shinn, the troubled kid who gets better, Athrun, who recovers his path, and Kira who is willing to fight for humanity and all have decide to fight to help humanity.

For me Kira had no idea what to do, all he knew was that had to do something. Of course he did a lot of damage but at the same time saved a lot of people. For me I saw that Kira and Archangel had sometimes doubted themselves on what they're doing. For me Destiny was part 2 of Seed where both Kira and Athrun truly reach their answer.

In Seed, they didn't know who they were supposed to fight for, ZAFT or EA? The answer was neither. In Destiny they're confronted again with what they should do, should they be isolationist like Kira and Lacus were for 2 years or join a side like Athrun, instead they all decide to not fight for any side or cause but to prevent wars again and that would be their fight.

Of course this is my interpretation of Seed/ Destiny which makes the series much better for me.

Either way, to me Destiny didn't feel like an ending to CE. Instead it made me feel it was incomplete and needed another series, movie, etc. Actually it made me feel like it should be another UC. Just that UC focused on the war and battles itself alot and that CE would focus on relationships in war, etc.

My dream is that Destiny would be that bad but necessary part of great and awesome story that CE could become. It has the wars and political tensions setting of UC and yet the interpersonal relationships for another audience. An example would probably be the success of the Gundam Astray mangas

[monster]

Originally Posted by Throne Zwei

Just because it's a sequel to an AU Gundam doesn't mean it's successful.

It certainly doesn't mean it's a failure.

Destiny already failed. Just because an AU Gundam was made as a sequel to it's previous series, does not make it a successful series. Shows that were branded as a "Black Sheep" series for such a stupid reason like Gundam X, did a lot better than GSD ever could.

Well, that's just your opinion. But there's no harm in it so feel free to keep telling yourself about it.

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

@Sanger and zeroexia: lets just wash our hands and let them talk all they want about CE.

With that attitude of yours, why are you in a thread about CE in the first place?

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Originally Posted by monstert

It certainly doesn't mean it's a failure.

Doesn't mean it was good either.

But this is all just subjective reasoning, it was a success financially.

Well, that's just your opinion. But there's no harm in it so feel free to keep telling yourself about it.

Do you think Destiny was a better show then X? Just asking.

With that attitude of yours, why are you in a thread about CE in the first place?

Seeing as s/he is Kira's 1# fan, s/he still enjoys discussing CE's faults probably.

Not all Kira fans are blind, just sayin.

[aeriolewinters]

With that attitude of yours, why are you in a thread about CE in the first place?

To tell people that they need to be patient? to tell them our interpretation?

Why am I in a CE thread?
Please read my member status. I think you'll understand why. Simple reason is because I'm a fan who frankly didn't want CE to end like this. Who would want an ending that is more or less like the First series' ending except there's not much emotion in it?

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

To tell people that they need to be patient? to tell them our interpretation?

Why am I in a CE thread?
Please read my member status. I think you'll understand why. Simple reason is because I'm a fan who frankly didn't want CE to end like this. Who would want an ending that is more or less like the First series' ending except there's not much emotion in it?

I must agree. I don't like how Destiny's ending. The only better ending was Final Plus and for me that was just like crying for a sequel movie, series, whatever.

[aeriolewinters]

@Sanger: Except that I'm not this 'Kira's' fan.
I don't need to explain why. Just looking at my signature/avatar would explain everything.

@zeroexia: Destiny's premise was good, but the execution wasn't. I would've digested kira-and-crew-are-evil path except for the fact that the staff sucked at presenting that to the audience, and that presenting a pink-haired-princess with her haro's as someone who's evil doesn't really seem to add up. I mean, what's wrong with copying

Spoiler:

Haman

when you've copied every other aspect of UC's background?

[monster]

Originally Posted by Sanger Zonvolt

Doesn't mean it was good either.

But this is all just subjective reasoning, it was a success financially.

Oh, I agree to all of that.

Do you think Destiny was a better show then X? Just asking.

Hmm, I can't say. In some ways, I enjoy X more in part due to the lack of recap episodes (at least, I don't remember X had any recap episode). The story was alright, but the characters weren't that memorable to me.

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

To tell people that they need to be patient? to tell them our interpretation?

Why am I in a CE thread?
Please read my member status. I think you'll understand why. Simple reason is because I'm a fan who frankly didn't want CE to end like this. Who would want an ending that is more or less like the First series' ending except there's not much emotion in it?

I'm talking about this washing of hands stuff you brought up. Do note that bashing on CE/GSD/Kira/etc by itself doesn't bother me. Sometimes I'll make a reply. But even if I don't, they can still be of interest to me. But this condescending attitude frankly does not make for an enjoyable read.

Of course, sometimes I might be guilty of the same thing (I'm not perfect, after all, so feel free to point it out when I do). But most of the times if I do it, I do it jokingly. (Like my post above about opinions, which was a reference to winter45's even earlier post in this thread for those who don't recognise it).

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

@Sanger: Except that I'm not this 'Kira's' fan.
I don't need to explain why. Just looking at my signature/avatar would explain everything.

@zeroexia: Destiny's premise was good, but the execution wasn't. I would've digested kira-and-crew-are-evil path except for the fact that the staff sucked at presenting that to the audience, and that presenting a pink-haired-princess with her haro's as someone who's evil doesn't really seem to add up. I mean, what's wrong with copying

Spoiler:

Haman

when you've copied every other aspect of UC's background?

For me Kira and Crew were never evil. They never seemed like they were the bad guys. Whenever i saw Kira and crew return I actually felt like they were the true heroes. After saying the insanity of Shinn , I couldn't accept him as a hero. Of course Lacus as an evil woman leader like Haman doesn't really seem all possible if what we are shown is true. Unless of course they somehow decide to make Lacus become actually the true evil mastermind who takes over the galaxy.

And every gundam series copies from other gundam series, it's just how they implement it into their story. Of course Destiny did a pretty bad job on some.

[Throne Zwei]

Originally Posted by monstert

It certainly doesn't mean it's a failure.

And you think it didn't fail?

Originally Posted by Sanger Zonvolt

Doesn't mean it was good either.

But this is all just subjective reasoning, it was a success financially.

It was successful financially for the part where it was popular from what I can think of from the top of my head, SEED fans.

Originally Posted by monstert

Well, that's just your opinion. But there's no harm in it so feel free to keep telling yourself about it.

I was using Gundam X as an example who's story is more consistent than Destiny and ended in a way where it made sense.

Originally Posted by zeroexia

I must agree. I don't like how Destiny's ending. The only better ending was Final Plus and for me that was just like crying for a sequel movie, series, whatever.

I don't even know what I watched with Destiny's original ending. Final plus was just longer in my opinion but it didn't improve on anything much.

[aeriolewinters]

Unless of course they somehow decide to make Lacus become actually the true evil mastermind who takes over the galaxy.

Not really, I actually enjoy Lacus being someone cerebral. I think that if you can remove all the fluff from her, she'd be infinitely better than what she is taken for in the fandom.

[zeroexia]

the Final Plus had a bit more smoother and a slightly better conclusion with what happens after the battle and the memorial scene linked together. of course it wasn't awesome but was better.

[Sanger Zonvolt]

@Sanger: Except that I'm not this 'Kira's' fan.
I don't need to explain why. Just looking at my signature/avatar would explain everything.

I think Destiny was not only harmful to Kira's character growth, but also as a pilot, an experienced pilot who fought in an entire war, he didn't showcase this skill in Destiny.

He sprinkled PIS fairy dust on his enemies, so they would hold still for him.

Going from someone who would think for himself at the end SEED, then taking away this development and turning him once again into a puppet, an extension of his girlfriend's will.

Actually I may have been fooled in SEED, and thought Kira was changing, but infact was just going to someone else to give him a purpose, instead of ever choosing his own reason for fighting, just fighting for the sake someone telling him to.

When I first saw Kira in Destiny, I thought he had finally matured into a stoic and mature pilot, much like Amuro in CCA, instead he was a self-righteous zombie, who might as well of been an emotionless android created for Lacus........oh wait.

[Throne Zwei]

Originally Posted by zeroexia

the Final Plus had a bit more smoother and a slightly better conclusion with what happens after the battle and the memorial scene linked together. of course it wasn't awesome but was better.

It was slightly better with more closure to Shinn but it was still a weak ending. There was just simply too many things that were left unexplained.

Originally Posted by Sanger Zonvolt

When I first saw Kira in Destiny, I thought he had finally matured into a stoic and mature pilot, much like Amuro in CCA, instead he was a self-righteous zombie, who might as well of been emotionless android created for Lacus........oh wait.

Well Kira's character never changed in Destiny.

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Not really, I actually enjoy Lacus being someone cerebral. I think that if you can remove all the fluff from her, she'd be infinitely better than what she is taken for in the fandom.

true but an evil mastermind Lacus would make her probably one of the most mind-messing and manipulative characters ever if you think about it. She would be in control of PLANTS, have a close friend in control of ORB, a destroyed EA to take over , the 3 strongest pilots in CE with seed to back her up, etc. Probably would be the greatest plot ever.

Of course that would make all the Lacus fans hate whoever made that story. I myself would laugh if that happen and like to see her die for being so evil to cause so much death to get rid of all enemies and cement her rule along with stringing along all her friends if that was true.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Throne Zwei

And you think it didn't fail?

It wasn't as enjoyable as it could be. But if I use that as the basis for failure, then most gundam series already failed, particularly most of the UC stuff, with the exception of 0080 and maybe the igloo ovas.

I was using Gundam X as an example who's story is more consistent than Destiny and ended in a way where it made sense.

Like I said before, if you think that makes GSD, taken as a whole, an automatic failure for you, then that's fine by me. Although, it's good that now you give reasons for what makes you think GX is better than GSD.

[aeriolewinters]

an extension of his girlfriend's will.

ho might as well of been emotionless android created for Lacus........oh wait.

Spoiler for My head working OT:

Maybe this is because the real Kira died? and what we see for SEED ep 35-up is a clone.

But seriously this was what I wanted to compound on. You would think Kira would learn his lesson with Fllay back then, yet you see him making the same mistakes he has done so many times in SEED.