(L) Kotetsujo no Kabaneri (Knocking on the Walls of the Armored Fortress)

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

Would killing Ikoma or Mumei really count as "at least unpredictable" in this context?

Yes, because the 2nd last episode was very much leaning towards an "Ikoma saves the day (and Mumei)" finale. Ikoma surviving what happened to him in the 3rd last episode was extremely remarkable at an in-universe level as it is. So that alone makes it look like he has an indestructible character shield at a meta-level. So him dying in the final episode would have been at least somewhat surprising given what he had survived so far.

I believe plenty of folks were speculating about such a thing here and elsewhere. Even me. Mumei dying would also further reinforce the Guilty Crown comparisons, so it's almost the opposite of hard to predict (nor would it lead to less criticisms in that regard).

Spoiler for Guilty Crown comparison, some major implied spoilers.:

Ikoma's character arc is very different from Shu's in Guilty Crown. Honestly, the Guilty Crown comparisons only work, perhaps, on a basic quality/stylistic level. The two shows have a lot of major differences. One is that Ikoma never endured moral compromise to the degree that Shu did. A case can be made that the more unhappy elements of Guilty Crown's ending was the penance that Shu had to pay for his 'Fuhrer Shu' period.

Ikoma is consistently shown to be right in this show, especially right in a moral sense. So his big promise to Mumei made back in Episode 7? There's every reason to think the show will have Ikoma make good on that promise. So him not making good on that promise would have been surprising. So Mumei dying would have been surprising. It would be a clear-cut case of Ikoma being wrong for a change.

But we can't let our morally perfect hero be wrong now, can we?

In fact, letting both of them live is actually a more "bold" or at least novel decision when compared to the staff's previous record.

For the staff themselves? Maybe. For anime as a whole? Not at all. Overall, the bolder choice would have been to have Mumei or Ikoma die in the final episode.

The survival of both characters is not what the audience expected out of them

It's completely what I expected. So no, I was not wrong about that. And do you have any evidence that the audience were not expecting both characters to live?

But like I've also said before, it sure seems impossible to please everyone at this point, since we would be having a similar conversation even if they had died.

We, as in you and I, wouldn't be. I would have appreciated the boldness in having Ikoma either fail (Mumei dies), or die as the price of his success (Ikoma saves Mumei, but gives his life to accomplish that - this, in my view, would have been the most emotionally impacting choice, and likely would have ensured that Kabaneri remains memorable for a long time).

There might be more stakes involved, which was definitely applicable here,

Was there more stakes involved? Biba had already successfully demolished the place. Casualties were already high. And given how ineffectual Monster!Mumei seemed, who's to say how much more damage she would have caused even if Ikoma had failed to save her? Ayame's people probably would have managed to survive and get away anyway. Biba might have ended up lost and without drive now that he has successfully gained revenge on his father.

Honestly, the whole thing almost felt like a mop-up operation.

I've already mentioned my doubts about the show's ability to further increase the focus on Monster Mumei as a threat without also adding more of a stereotypical element of angst between her and Ikoma.

"Adding more of a stereotypical element of angst" would have been worth it in order to make Monster!Mumei seem like the threat/challenge that she should have been.

Honestly, the zombies were already cannon fodder on an individual level in this setting even before the introduction of Biba.

When I use the term "cannon fodder", I mean more than simply "low threat level". I mean that they're easily disposal pawns on somebody's chess board - In this case, Biba's chess board.

Having a variety of kabane, where most (but not all) are quickly defeated, does not undermine the horrific "force of nature" basis of zombie and zombie-like characters. But having them be someone's cannon fodder army? Yeah, that really does very much undermine a zombie apocalypse motif, in my opinion.

Whereas I think those nice moments are not automatically transformed into terrible things, so to speak, even in this dumb show. It's why we will disagree. Ignoring them completely in exchange for more action

We didn't necessarily need more action. We just need flashier and more impressive-looking action, in my opinion.

[Blonto]

Welp, I watched the last episode and that was incredibly underwhelming. Hard to believe this was supposed to be the big finale, the excitement was non-existent. Mumei was built up in the last episode as this destructive horse thing and here she just falls apart without doing anything. Ikoma just comes and kinda kills Biba, but not really. Biba then...shoots him? But that saves him? What? And the samurai guy goes after a whole mass of zombies but yay, he's ok too! We just don't have the guts to kill anyone in this show, let's just have a happy end with no explanation because we're a shounen series and they're meant for 12 year olds.
And they try to repeat that sweatdrop scene but it just doesn't work. Everything goes full-shounen with shiny bits and superpowers and three worst characters in the show. Oh, and crushing a train with magical hand superpowers. I did not know what to say to that.

I expected a terrible over-the-top shounen finale with superpowers, instead we got a terrible underwhelming shounen finale with superpowers from someone who clearly has absolutely no idea how climaxes work. Or storytelling in general. No-one can still make sense of Biba's motivations, if the writers even thought that far. I guess they wanted to end on that note.
This whole anime is a huge disconnected illogical mess, I'd grade it 4/10 purely for the music and animation (though even the animation had significant portions where it sucked). Otherwise it gave me the same feelings watching Guilty Crown did.

I totally called that Biba was a kabaneri because he had to put up a decent fight with the MC. But with how badly made this finale was he didn't have to be because the final fight was absolutely pathetic. Felt like watching two kids messing around.

And lol the princess' speech. So let me get this straight, Biba's minions were drawing blood from you, keeping your friend in a cage, unleashing hundreds of flesh-craving zombies onto innocent people and murdering thousands with their own hands just a few days ago and you just let them onto your train? What a great idea!

[Top Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Blonto

And lol the princess' speech. So let me get this straight, Biba's minions were drawing blood from you, keeping your friend in a cage, unleashing hundreds of flesh-craving zombies onto innocent people and murdering thousands with their own hands just a few days ago and you just let them onto your train? What a great idea!

Its a good idea: place all the former bad guys into the same rail car, seal it with the Master Key so they can't get out, and leave it on a siding out in the middle of the wilderness somewhere, or drop it down a coal mine.

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yes, because the 2nd last episode was very much leaning towards an "Ikoma saves the day (and Mumei)" finale. Ikoma surviving what happened to him in the 3rd last episode was extremely remarkable at an in-universe level as it is. So that alone makes it look like he has an indestructible character shield at a meta-level. So him dying in the final episode would have been at least somewhat surprising given what he had survived so far.

Except the same 2nd to last episode and most of the finale had them setting up that he is going to eventually burn out and become a Kabane after using the blue liquid on himself. On a meta level, there were also plenty of claims, both here and elsewhere, including things such as "this writer usually kills his protagonists" (which is inaccurate, but that's another can of worms) so I don't see a lot of room for your argument about its "unpredictability" at all.

At least we are in fact in a basic agreement about Ikoma and Shu having different character arcs. Not going to argue about the details, but that much is fine. Then again, a few people kept going out of their way to say I was "wrong" by rejecting such comparisons before, which in turn supports my current argument that they believed both shows were going to be ending in a similar way. And yet they didn't, which confirmed the validity of my earlier dismissal of such ideas. Which some will continue to repeat even after the fact, but I digress.

For the staff themselves? Maybe. For anime as a whole? Not at all. Overall, the bolder choice would have been to have Mumei or Ikoma die in the final episode.

Evidently, I am not talking about "unpredictability" within anime as a whole. But in the context of this anime and its staff, neither of those choices would have been "bold" for the sort of people I've already described. It's very easy to imagine the amount of posts saying stuff like "Oh, Araki killed his main female lead again" or "Okouchi's so unimaginative, here's another male protagonist who dies at the end of the story!" and so on.

It's completely what I expected. So no, I was not wrong about that. And do you have any evidence that the audience were not expecting both characters to live?

Not everyone did, so I am not questioning your personal opinion. But the evidence for such predictions is in this same thread and beyond. Do you really need me to quote posts from earlier in this thread, MAL, Twitter, 4chan or other such places? I could do all that, if you really insist on denying such a thing, but it honestly doesn't seem worth the effort.

We, as in you and I, wouldn't be. I would have appreciated the boldness in having Ikoma either fail (Mumei dies), or die as the price of his success (Ikoma saves Mumei, but gives his life to accomplish that - this, in my view, would have been the most emotionally impacting choice, and likely would have ensured that Kabaneri remains memorable for a long time).

We, as in this thread's collection of various forum posters. I almost wish we had access to a time machine to confirm that, but I don't think the show would have had such an emotional impact even if they died. Not with this level of negativity in the air and what I've already pointed out before.

Was there more stakes involved?

Considering Ikoma and/or Mumei could have died (and you are even supporting that outcome), yes. That was more likely to happen in this episode than at any earlier point in the story, so there were higher stakes concerning their fate.

"Adding more of a stereotypical element of angst" would have been worth it in order to make Monster!Mumei seem like the threat/challenge that she should have been.

That's nice, but I strongly doubt a lot of people would applaud the angst.

Yeah, that really does very much undermine a zombie apocalypse motif, in my opinion.

Based on prior experiences and familiarity with zombie media, my opinion differs.

We didn't necessarily need more action. We just need flashier and more impressive-looking action, in my opinion.

Fair enough.

[Blonto]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

No, it merely stopped focusing on exclusively fighting zombies within said zombie apocalypse. But what happened later was still connected to the same apocalyptic setting.

You mean that fortified high-tech city where everyone lives a fine life? Wow, such apocalypse, such hard life.
Again, if you can easily get rid of the zombies and lose nothing, then your story is not a zombie apocalypse story anymore than Twilight is vampire horror. Just because you tell me this human being is a zombie doesn't mean I'll buy it. Show, don't tell, that's how storytelling is supposed to work.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

And, for the sake of the record, there have been other examples of zombie stories where the zombies are not the final threat.

You are again unironically using the fact that something is an overdone cliche to make it look like a good thing. I'm still baffled by how this is making sense in your head.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

More importantly, the show didn't only introduce zombies and nothing else.

Are you saying this is a good thing? On one hand you're saying people had too high expectations when we only wanted zombie action (which is what it promised to be, not shounen garbage with shiny superattacks), on the other you're trying to justify the show not being pleased with being simple and shoving in terrible attempts at complexity. Which is it? You can't tell us not to blame a show for trying to be something more than it is and failing, and at the same time say any bullshit it comes up with is ok because it's not trying in the first place. Pick one.
Zombies were working perfectly fine. Biba wasn't. You're trying to make an obvious flaw that everyone agrees is a flaw look better just by saying it's a cliche they put it in a show. Yes, they did, and they made the show suck by doing it. This is a positive thing how?

Originally Posted by Kusaja

The Kabaneri are also part of the same equation and arguably just as if not more significant. It's even in the damn title and OP sequence of this thing. The Biba arc, for better or for worse, relied upon the existence of both Kabane and Kabaneri. Both, not only one of them. It wouldn't make any sense to remove either element from the story.

So what you're saying is the latter half of the show is not a zombie apocalypse show. Ok.
The main characters are kabaneri, that's why they're in the show's title. Kabaneri of the iron fortress (i.e. koutetsujou). It's not called "Bishounen's revenge ploy against some guy".

Originally Posted by Kusaja

I am having trouble believing that someone who isn't a troll is telling me that accepting the existence of a cliche in a story (or a stereotypical story) as not being the worst thing known to modern media automatically means it's a good thing. I think it's something that can be normalized and internalized, or rejected and disliked, not good or bad as a concept. Storytelling patterns, including tropes and cliches, are not only good or only bad.

Kabaneri used shit cliches for a shit villain, for a shit plot and shit character motivations. So all this typical talk of cliches being good makes no sense. Every single cliche they used brought the anime one step closer to ruin.
You do realize that cliches are different from tropes and archetypes, right? Cliche is specifically something that's been so worn out everyone is sick of it (stuff like damsels in distress, making your zombie story revolve around a villain and a darwinist villain at that). At best you can make it work with great skills, skills that we all agree the writers of this show don't have. I didn't even go into just general stupidity and questions left in the air that the show has consistently been doing, that alone is enough to keep it in trash territory, cliches are what made it boring as tar and irredeemable. Also you know, totally different from what it promised to be.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

Does everyone or even the majority of the audience hate Ikoma?

You didn't read all those "can Ikoma say anything without yelling?" comments? People have gotten really annoyed at how useless he's been throughout the show. I don't think there's a single person anywhere who said Ikoma is a positive in a series as a whole. Lots of people liked him in the first few episodes before he became generic shounen protagonist #710935. Meanwhile a ton of people said how annoyed they were at his typical shounen antics. At very best he was ignored because he was overshadowed by Mumei Jenkins.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

Idealism often includes aspiring to accomplish either impossible or very hard things.

Yes and sometimes you need to save children. That means that turning Mumei into a damsel in distress was totally justified.
And I think most people who aren't shounen protagonists try to have possible goals because, you know, they actually have a brain and are not trying to force inspirational moments for the audience because their main character status will make these things come true regardless of reality.

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by Blonto

You mean that fortified high-tech city where everyone lives a fine life? Wow, such apocalypse, such hard life.

I was actually referring to the entire setting and not just the final location, which was painted as the strongest fortress in Japan and therefore something exceptional. Which does suit an apocalyptic setting. Those do include a few places, or even just one, where people can live a fine life.

You are again unironically using the fact that something is an overdone cliche to make it look like a good thing. I'm still baffled by how this is making sense in your head.

Looks like you'll never understand that accepting something does not equal praise. That's what rather bizarrely continues to baffle you so much.

But since you're ignoring the difference...are you saying that every single use of "humans are the ultimate enemy, not the zombies" has been as harshly criticized in other games and media as what happened in Kabaneri, to the extent that the concept itself is anathema? If the question is one of execution and not concept, then I would readily agree. But that's not how you're framing it.

Are you saying this is a good thing? On one hand you're saying people had too high expectations when we only wanted zombie action (which is what it promised to be, not shounen garbage with shiny superattacks), on the other you're trying to justify the show not being pleased with being simple and shoving in terrible attempts at complexity.

I was referring to the introduction of the Kabaneri in episodes one and two. And yes, I do think that's a good thing instead of a "terrible attempt at complexity" since it doesn't even qualify as "complex" in a medium full of fantasy races and half-breeds. Unless you believe Castlevania:SOTN is "a terrible attempt at complexity" because you can play as the half-vampire Alucard (it is a game with a weak story though, but that's not what people play it for).

I am not even "defending" Biba as character, as opposed to the larger fact that this was a story which included zombies *and* half-zombies right from the start, so you're aiming at the wrong target in your attack.

So what you're saying is the latter half of the show is not a zombie apocalypse show.

No, that's not what I am saying.

The main characters are kabaneri, that's why they're in the show's title. Kabaneri of the iron fortress (i.e. koutetsujou). It's not called "Bishounen's revenge ploy against some guy".

Of course, it isn't. The show is about Kabaneri in a zombie apocalypse. Said zombie apocalypse includes Kabaneri who fight an evil bishounen with a revenge plot as a final antagonist. He used Kabane and Kabaneri for his dumb plan. Resident Evil doesn't stop being part of the zombie genre when you blow up Wesker or some other Umbrella Corporation dummy at the end of a game.

Every single cliche they used brought the anime one step closer to ruin.

You do realize that cliches are different from tropes and archetypes, right? Cliche is specifically something that's been so worn out everyone is sick of it (stuff like damsels in distress, making your zombie story revolve around a villain and a darwinist villain at that).

I am including both, because you're the one treating every single trope and archetype in this show as being so inherently worn out that everyone is sick of it, when that is not the case. Everyone is sick of Biba? Yup, pretty much. Is everyone sick of Ikoma? No, not really. Some are, others aren't.

You didn't read all those "can Ikoma say anything without yelling?" comments? People have gotten really annoyed at how useless he's been throughout the show. I don't think there's a single person anywhere who said Ikoma is a positive in a series as a whole.

Then you would simply be wrong in your conclusion. I've read those comments as well as the less negative remarks you're conspicuously ignoring, despite being present in this very same thread.

You might not think so, but there is evidence of exactly that (Ikoma as a positive or at least more positive than negative), especially outside of this forum. Contrary to what you may imply, I have never claimed that nobody has issues with Ikoma. My point is that this isn't as remotely absolute as the general rejection of someone like Biba.

Lots of people liked him in the first few episodes before he became generic shounen protagonist #710935. Meanwhile a ton of people said how annoyed they were at his typical shounen antics. At very best he was ignored because he was overshadowed by Mumei Jenkins.

You're grudgingly acknowledging my point then, even if you won't admit it. That said, not everyone who may have been bored by or disliked his shounen antics has automatically reached the same level of annoyance that you are displaying here. When he was being useless, they did call him that. When he wasn't, such as the last episode and a quarter, they've been more open to him, even on a superficial level. Silly haircut and transformation included.

Yes and sometimes you need to save children. That means that turning Mumei into a damsel in distress was totally justified.

Which doesn't have much to do with what I said.

[Kanon]

Welp, that was not good. It feels like they were trying to make a new Attack on Titan without even a basic understanding of what made Attack on Titan such a hit. The writing staff are complete hacks. Araki should really just stick to adaptations. He's really good at that, but not at anything else.

[DMurphy]

I'm vexed, partly because they actually had an interesting concept here. Not really so much zombies, zombies are boring as all get-out, but tying them to the industrial revolution, and the overtones of allegory that the concept seemed to have, and the way the kabane seemed somewhat intelligent - those were all kind of interesting ideas.

But nothing was made of that concept. At the end of it all, the kabane were more like background noise to a terribly paced story about people on trains killing each other. You could have replaced the kabane with 'soldiers from a nearby country' and the only thing that would have changed about the plot is that you wouldn't be able to have Mumei become a big monster at the end. Which they didn't even do anything with.

[bakato]

For the sake of our heroes, I think it was a good thing Biba happened. This shogun would have probably killed Ikouma and co.

[HayashiTakara]

I'm sure that Biba injected the white blood into Ikoma to reverse the Blackblood to make him easier to kill, not necessarily to save him.

Was this the last episode?

[dark998]

Originally Posted by bakato

For the sake of our heroes, I think it was a good thing Biba happened. This shogun would have probably killed Ikouma and co.

Yeah, it was either the shogun or Biba the one that was going to assume the role of main villian in this part of the story. Also thanks to Biba we got to see an even more badass side of Ikoma, plus Mumei being able to break free of years of manipulation.

Kabane are dangerous in the grand scheme of things but Ikoma and Mumei always dealt with them easily, it was not till Biba and his hunters were introduced that the main charaters faced a real challenge.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by bakato

For the sake of our heroes, I think it was a good thing Biba happened. This shogun would have probably killed Ikouma and co.

That's not a valid argument. If you take Biba out of the picture, you can do the same with the Shogun.

Originally Posted by dark998

Kabane are dangerous in the grand scheme of things but Ikoma and Mumei always dealt with them easily, it was not till Biba and his hunters were introduced that the main charaters faced a real challenge.

Kabane weren't a major threat because they were gonna introduce Biba. Conversely, if they didn't introduce Biba, they would have made the kabane more dangerous (introducing different types, for example).

[xeviouses]

Welp, that finale was underwhelming...still I'm hoping for S2 there are still some things unanswered.

Biba feels like a wake-up call boss, the first real challenge Ikoma and Mumei faced.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's not a valid argument. If you take Biba out of the picture, you can do the same with the Shogun.

Oh, yeah. The shogun would've made it nice and easy. He would've killed most of his forces with a mindless zombie horde relatively easier to escape from than trained military and then send the remainder of his forces away to escape while he confronted the protagonist alone.

[Harbinger]

Biba was able, by himself, to wreck the whole train. His addition to the show was the turning point.

It should have focused on survival instead of this wannabe villain.

[Master_Yoma]

Ikoma is the new Ash just so awesome with that weapon but Kurusu got mad skill with that sword then theres Biba just such an ass he just wants to watch the world burn

Well this would of been better if it was a full 24eps

7/10 going to miss Mumei

[scififan]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

I'm sure that Biba injected the white blood into Ikoma to reverse the Blackblood to make him easier to kill, not necessarily to save him.

Originally Posted by Araki's comment in an open forum

荒木「美馬が生駒に打った白血漿は分かりづらかったかもしれないが、美馬は最初に生駒と出会ってから、彼に ずっと興味があった。生駒に未来を託す想いで白血漿を打った。」

Araki: It might be hard to comprehend that Biba shoots white plasma cells into Ikoma. When Biba first met Ikoma, he is interested about Ikoma. Biba's shooting white blood plasma to Ikoma is a metaphor that he handed over wishes of future to him.

Images

the best scene of the episode

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Ikoma becomes blind

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Ikoma injects white plasma cells into Mumei, and Biba shoots white plasma cells into Ikoma

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[Cerilla]

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CR will release Kabaneri in Bluray & DVD with dub.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-new...to-blu-ray-dvd

[Brother Coa]

I finally watched the ending and.... it was good. Rushed but good.

And I agree, Biba was completely unimportant and unnecessary part of anime. I agree with others that he has pretty much ruined it.

But alas, at least he is dead and that is godsend if they ever decide to do season 2. Which they should as they have all the important parts ready - country capital and leader dead without heirs, ever still present threat of extinction and new and idealistic bunch to fight the good fight.

But only if they decide to anime fully cover Kabane, bad humans cliche is what ruined this show.

This anime as it stands was unfortunately wasted potential. It could have been much, much more...

[moncikoma]

Once i had a "sister" who calls me onichan, but she was taken before i confess. this ani, gives me a second chance to find her (her name is Ann)

*i find out she's married , so guess i have to find another ;')

listening to Grenzlinie *cry a bucket

Best Anime? no.. best anime for me? Yes..
maybe this anime were meant for me (moncIKOMA)

because i can Love every little thing from it. . no matter how silly and dumb this show is..
"to Enjoy and to Judge a series is two different thing"

Special thanks :
#HaruhikoMikomoto
#SawanoHiroyuki
#Aimer
#WitStudio
#Egoist
#Chelly
#MikaKobayashi
#BenjaminAnderson
#TetsuroAraki