Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Keroko]

What, you mean the lab that Signum and Agito were inspecting? Yes, clearly Signum and Agito are corrupt and the scientists didn't just use their 'when the authorities come nosing around' plan the moment things went to hell.

And a precedent reinforces proof, it is not proof on its own.

[Tiresias]

Precedent? Yeah, you know what had also happened before? That the majority of the Bureau are actually decent folks

And if you're going to press through with the conspiracy theory, why not go all out, Raiser?

Maybe all this were a totally cost-effective, not in any way ridiculous venture by Caladfwelch to get rid of their competitors!

Maybe a TSAB general was doing it because he was afraid of losing his precious fluids!

Maybe, after all is solved, it turns out that the real mastermind every event in Nanoha was actually her own father Shiro, as a way to prepare her to become the Queen Witch of the Universe! Oh, and he can conjure legendary weapons out of thin air! Oh, and Momoka was actually a True Ancestor! And Mars is actually filled with magic-based civilizations!

MWAHAHAHAHA! What a tweeeeeestt!

No if you'll excuse me, I'm going to restock my supply of salt while you people go in circle with all these conspiracy theories. Hey, if you keep throwing them no matter how ridiculous they get, who knows! Maybe one of them (out of a million) turns out to be correct! And when that happen, feel free to pat yourself in the back~

EDIT: While you're at it, don't forget to populate the TVTropes Wild Mass Guessing page for Nanoha!!!

[Akiyoshi]

Let my try:

Uhm... uuhhhhmmm... Cypha is in Reality a Stealth/Trickster Mentor to Signum xD

Ta-dah!

[Kuze]

Is this another "the effective part of the TSAB is getting too monolithic" sort of but not actual discussion that's about something else?

Let's go back to the campsite meeting between Lily, Isis, and Touma. Touma wouldn't talk to any of the Land Patrol Officers, or random TSAB personal; He was looking specifically for Subaru (or he probably would've talked to any of the Wolkenritter, his family, Erio, you know), but he and Steed were fully expecting to get into hot water for this one, which they would accept, not gladly, but willingly, because Lily deserved the same kind of chance that he got.

And to be fair, it was and still is a pretty sticky issue. You go with the people who you can trust in those cases. If it was just himself, I don't doubt that he would have turned in immediately, but Lily changed everything, and he just didn't want to take any kind of chance.

Compare:

Six of one: Touma doesn't have the same kind of infallible faith in the general rank and order of the TSAB as he does with the StrikerS and their company.

Half a dozen of another: Touma accepts the authority of the TSAB without any problems. Barring insane emotional distress.

Remember, Touma was a lonely orphan, doing hard work for what, eight, nine years? before the Huckebein blew down Kansas. Hell, he might not have actually cried for real until Subaru asked him if he wanted to be family. That he has some minor issues with trust isn't exactly unexpected.

But if we're going back to "the TSAB should be a lot more expansive than just the big three families, and Regius was stupidly incompetent for the sake of driving forward the point that Hayate knows best", then no, I wouldn't have any problems about /effective/ but opposing interservice factions appearing. Even DC Comics, as dumb as they are now, was able to illustrate the point respectfully when Wonder Woman and Superman argued about what the moral line is for a super hero.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Keroko

What, you mean the lab that Signum and Agito were inspecting? Yes, clearly Signum and Agito are corrupt and the scientists didn't just use their 'when the authorities come nosing around' plan the moment things went to hell.

Even then they had to explain what Thoma stole and why it's important to get it back. Which would lead to questions like "Why do you have this in the first place?" and "What were you doing out here with it?" Signum and Agito may not be corrupt, but they could have been told not to ask those question.

It could even be something like the Bureau is funding them, but the scientists aren't entirely honest about what they're doing with the money. I've been saying the Bureau could have a hand in things, but that doesn't mean they're knowing conspirators.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

And if you're going to press through with the conspiracy theory, why not go all out, Raiser?

Because I'm not spouting out random crap, I'm saying what's plausable. I'm not saying that's what's happening, but I'm saying that's what could be happening. There's more than a 0% chance that it is the case.

But what do I know? I'm wrong and everyone else is right so I should just shut my mouth.

[Kaijo]

I will say that discussing theories as to motivations and what's going on with the plot, is a valid topic for discussion. Until we figure out what exactly is going on, and who knows what, I'd really like to see less "shouting down of someone's theory" and more "less discuss the implications if this is true."

For my part, it makes sense that there is good and evil in any organization. StrikerS showed that. As well as a lot of grey. And our heroes may or may not know about it. I'll wait to see.

[Tiresias]

Why not? It's a shame if we let this thread goes to waste

[Kuze]

To be fair with Signum, she's a knight, not exactly a gumshoe. She gets her orders, and she doesn't hesitate. Noted as far back as A's. Why is she there? Because there's no one else, noted by the Enforcer Aide.

If they could've erased all the evidence of the human remains, then Vandin looks clean at a glance. And considering that they have heat emitters that can melt steel, that was certainly possible.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Even then they had to explain what Thoma stole and why it's important to get it back. Which would lead to questions like "Why do you have this in the first place?" and "What were you doing out here with it?" Signum and Agito may not be corrupt, but they could have been told not to ask those question.

It could even be something like the Bureau is funding them, but the scientists aren't entirely honest about what they're doing with the money. I've been saying the Bureau could have a hand in things, but that doesn't mean they're knowing conspirators.

Now you're using maybe's to support maybe's. You can't plug the holes in your speculation with more speculation, that just pokes even more holes in it.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I will say that discussing theories as to motivations and what's going on with the plot, is a valid topic for discussion. Until we figure out what exactly is going on, and who knows what, I'd really like to see less "shouting down of someone's theory" and more "less discuss the implications if this is true."

Very well. If it's true, then it opens a gargantuan window for the Hucks to receive a flood of pity and understanding. After all, being hunted down and treated like labrats would make almost anyone lash out at those responsible. It could potentially be a way to excuse the Hucks, going the whole "it's the responsibility of the TSAB these people turned out this way" route.

[Justin_Brett]

Even then they had to explain what Thoma stole and why it's important to get it back. Which would lead to questions like "Why do you have this in the first place?" and "What were you doing out here with it?" Signum and Agito may not be corrupt, but they could have been told not to ask those question.

Maybe that's just bad writing? I know you like to excuse this kinda stuff, but it could easily be that.

Very well. If it's true, then it opens a gargantuan window for the Hucks to receive a flood of pity and understanding. After all, being hunted down and treated like labrats would make almost anyone lash out at those responsible. It could potentially be a way to excuse the Hucks, going the whole "it's the responsibility of the TSAB these people turned out this way" route.

That would be awful.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Well the Zero seemed to be more than just a magic drain, considering everyone was effected by them, even eclipse infected and Subaru's cybernetics designed to be operated in AMF conditions. In fact, we're not even sure what it exactly does.

So I guess not even Touma's Force NEXT has any info on it?

[dahak]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

I specifically said that the Bureau as a whole isn't evil. All it would take would be to have some one like Lex giving out orders, and those orders have to be obeyed.

That of course worked so well for Admiral Graham and General Regius.

Oh wait, it didn't.

No sane scheming plotter who is still in the TSAB senior heirachy is going to do this to Thoma. Not that there are likely to be all that many after the post Regius witch hunt.

Because Thoma is Suberu's dependant and nothing is going to blow his plot open like dubious medical experiments on a near relative of one of TSAB's aces. Especially given her friends and relatives and their history of neeming the shit out of those sort of plots. The last thing such a hypothetical plotter wants is Teana, Fate and Verous having reason to look for him. They are famous and he can't buy their compliance.

Better to cut your contacts with the lab of evil and look for another plot. If your devious and sure of your cutouts you might even try helping RF6 take down the Lab of Evil so they owe you a favour. There will be another Lost Logia or dubious weapon program along shortly.

Remember Ship captains and Enforcers seem to get a lot of latitude so long as they can point at the results being in accordance with the ideals of TSAB and so it isn't just a matter of Orders will be obeyed or Graham would have ordered Chrono to follow his plan.

[mechdra]

I guess the whole issue about TSAB being corrupted, evil and such are akk cause by how we view our world. In general, I believe most people in the world always says that the police is corrupted and such. Remember guys, this is MIDCHILDA not EARTH. Their culture is diffrent, their history is diffrent and their philosophy is diffrent from us Earthlings.

Their society is not as screw up as our. Killing of a whole village is a big deal to them. In comparison to our world, lauching airstrikes and killing a city is not a crime.

[CrowKenobi]

Not to interrupt this fascinating discussion of the TSAB's ethics, but wouldn't the phrase "the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing" be a better fit? (and allow for the under-the-table dealings that a corrupt <or semi-corrupt> official would have going on...)

[Kaijo]

We've seen Graham enact his own "unethical" plan, even though he felt it was for the right reasons. We've seen the brain council flat out create Jail to handle a ton of illegal research (and who exactly were the scientists that created Jail? They were never caught... were they?). And we've seen Regius play a party to that "unethical" plan, believing it was for the right reasons like Graham.

With repeated examples that people in the Bureau (and at the very top!!!) can and do work at unethical and secret plans, there is no reason to hold so much skepticism that it could be happening again. Not sure how much our aces know and how much they may be kept in the dark, but they are going along with the new weaponry.

It actually makes for a nice setup for an interesting angle down the road, as the Aces get pulled further and further down the slope, a little bit at a time, until they look at each other and go, "...What have we become?"

Dunno if it'll even end up that route, but my personal gut and desires go more for seeing multiple factions working at cross purposes, such that they go back and forth from allies to enemies to allies again. So far, we have RF6, the Hucks, the Scientists, and these various corporations. Who knows how much anyone in the Bureau knows, but I kinda like the ever shifting landscape that leaves you not knowing exactly who the bad guys are.

Frustrating, ain't it? We want our clear black and white. We want to know who to hate and who to love. We want a clear villain, and I can see it driving some people nuts that the Hucks might not be the clear villains here.

That's the mark of a good story, in that it really plays havoc with your emotional mindsets, heh. So I dunno about you guys, but I'm keepin' my mind open.

[Proto]

I'll give your post the Kyuubei seal of approval.

[Tiresias]

Well that's definitely a personal taste. I mean, do everybody else here consider mind screw plot as instant quality?

The marks of of a good story are IMO good writing and presentation. Fail on those, and all those oh-so-awesomely-complex plot will taste like an overcooked and over-seasoned meal

And I'm not against seeing things as not-black-or-white. Unfortunately, that the heroes of Section 6 are playing full white kind makes me feel cheated - as if Tsuzuki promised something intriguing only to chicken out at the final detail because he feared angering the fans (only to do it anyway due to other issues). And then there's the inevitable morality argument, where people will start saying "See? There's a greater evil! The Hucks ain't that bad!". It's like saying thieves shouldn't go to prison because bank robbers did worse.

[mechdra]

I guess the story will focus more of the clash of ethical and moral philosophy. Graham, the brains and Regios uphold consequentialism. The Aces on the other hand hold on to deontological ethics and also virtue ethics. The Hucks on the other hand holds onto the ethics of care.

I guess this is a possible moral dilemma story and we will need to see how it develops.

[Kaijo]

You aren't going to find pure white and pure black in real life. Everyone has some degree of nastiness or blood on their hands. So I'm not saying you should love the Hucks, but you don't spend 20 years chasing a thief when there is a murderer on the loose.

And I'm almost not convinced our heroes are completely white here, either. The whole air battle didn't feel as if the heroes were really trying to be on the right side, and they are a party to the new weapons. While I can understand the need, it's just another step on the slope of self-justification.

But we're all like that. We think what we do and what we say, are the right things, even if other people say differently.

[Tiresias]

Real life?

Real life doesn't have magic.

Real life ancient artifacts doesn't stood well against the test of time, let alone being more advanced than the current one.

Real life parents wouldn't be so understanding of their little girl risking her life to save the world, nor would they handle the revelation of and interdimensional government with an "oh".

Real life doctors would never let a sick girl live in a house alone, no matter how filthy rich she was.

Real life spies would pay good mony for the ability to change into ferrets for infiltration purposes.

Real life militaries would abuse the bejeezus out of teleporation, instead of saving them for last minute deus ex machina.