Kingdom Hearts 3

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by GDB

The meta logic is they needed a way/reason for Sora's stats to reset for the third game. "Going back to the basics" is the best way to explain that. If he became a Master, it'd be weird for him to suddenly have level 1 stats.

Originally Posted by Akashin

0.2 made the reason for Sora's failure a bit more clear. It wasn't so much that Sora failed to show the Mark of Mastery as Riku did (though even then, one could argue that had the reason for Sora's failure been purely a result of outside influence, it would have been no different from Terra), but rather that because of that outside influence, Sora never fully obtained the power they were supposed to obtain from opening the Sleeping Keyholes. And getting that power was the Mark of Mastery.



This is it too. Though with that said, they probably care far more about this than they need to. It would be easy to have him be level 1 from a gameplay perspective, but have the storytelling make it clear that in reality he's level 1 on a totally new scale. Which is to say, KH1 Sora was level 1 relative to what he had to deal with then, and KH3 Sora would be level 1 relative to what he's dealing with now.

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

well in this case it is stated I think in 2.8 that he lost his abilities again due to the attempted possession by Xehanort

Yeah, I kow that they mention him losing his powers but they always do that:

KH ReCoM: Castle Oblivions rule of to lose is to gain.

KH 2: Sora regaining his memories and merging with Roxas.

KH DDD: He was in a different realm.

And now this. But still, while I do like that they at least put some effort in giving a reason as to why he is level one at the beginning of his adventures, that ending still bothers me a bit because there was blatant outside intervention from the very beginning unlike with Terra where it wasn't as obvious. And yes, while the main reason was that he didn't gain the power of waking he could have still been sent back to unlock that power quite easily since he was able to unlock all the sleeping keyholes on his side even while kidnapped, but then Yen Sid added that "But one of you went into the darkness willingly and came back and proved himself..." (I am paraphrasing) and basically overwrote the condition for the test on the fly from, gain the power of waking to "but he can now resist darkness so he wins".

I am not hating on the fact that Riku got to be a master first (it has been known from the beginning of the series that Riku is smarter and faster to understand things) just that to me personally it felt like they were trying way too hard to downplay Sora's character throughout the entire game. I mean, Sora can be goofy but DDD at times made him look like one of those idiotic generic anime mcs that is always lost because he isn't as smart as everyone else (They have Riku and Joshua basically making fun of his intelligence in one scene that didn't come across as endearing as they may have wanted it to).

I also felt like Sora spent half the game getting knock out by some nightmare to justify him not being able to help someone, even KH 1 Sora didn't feel this incompetent during his first adventure. Heck, in this very game alone you can see the contrast between how he is shown acting in front of the Organization (his real self appears in these moments) and how he is made to act in front of everyone else outside of those scenes.

I know I am complaining a lot but I didn't hate the game, the parts with the true Organization XIII were compelling and as I said, Riku's fights against Young Xehanort and Sora inside of the corrupted armor are some of my favorites from the entire series, it is just that at certain parts (at least in my opinion) it was obvious that they were forcing things a bit too much for my taste.

I'll leave it at that for now since I am typing this while half asleep, all in all I can't wait for KH 3. Also, I keep getting amazed at how many famous/well known actors and actresses actually voice characters in these games, how the hell does Disney even sell these games to them in the first place?

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by GDB

The meta logic is they needed a way/reason for Sora's stats to reset for the third game. "Going back to the basics" is the best way to explain that. If he became a Master, it'd be weird for him to suddenly have level 1 stats.

That's not really fair, considering Riku has been playable in past games and will likely be playable in some form for this game without being reset.

No matter how you spin it, the explanation doesn't make sense because:
A) if what you say is true, then it's weird for Riku to be a Master with his stats reset to level 1, and
B) if Riku isn't level 1 in KH3, then it makes no sense that Sora has to be either.

Even if resetting Sora's stats was a necessity, there are also better ways to do it. For example, they could have just tied Sora's abilities and strength to the number of Keyblades he had, and that the Keyblades signified his connection to the other worlds. When the worlds and their inhabitants are in turmoil, his connections with those people are severed, and his powers weaken as a result.


Though honestly, discussing the story of this franchise is a lost cause, considering whenever a complaint about it being either inconsistent or convoluted is brought up, someone else always feels the need to explain it as if we haven't already played the games before.

All I want is a fun Disney crossover action RPG with interesting worlds to interact with. Is that too much to ask now

[Rising Dragon]

Chances are that Riku won't be playable right away, or if he's a guest party member (pretty much guaranteed), it'll be mid-to-late, or late-to-end game, justifying him having a high power level.

If they do a different character for tutorial stuff, like KH2 did with Roxas in Simulated Twilight Town, my personal guess is that the playable character will be Kairi, as she's just starting out as a Keyblade warrior herself. It'd be easier to justify her going through things that Sora, powerless or no, would already know how to handle. Like Riku I suspect she too will be a guest party member later in the game.

[Galaxian]

They could have Riku playable later on and with a locked skill set like in CoM.

The one place in which the meta-narrative falls apart is actually BbS in which Aqua and Terra are already taking the Mark of Mastery exam, with Aqua even becoming a Master, yet their level is still at 1 with almost no skills learned.

[Mad Pierrot]

Chosen_Hero, Sora wasn't even intended to be playable in DDD as the game was going to solely focus on Riku. However, fan demand resulted in Sora getting the short part of the stick despite being playable.

[cyberdemon]

well with Riku they could use the excuse that with the breaking and replacing of his keyblade he had to redo his training in order to master his new keyblade which is a different type from Way to the Dawn. Hence having to start from scratch since some of his old powers could be tied to the light/dark aspect of Way to the Dawn. That it broke shows that his abilities are shifting thus needing to re-train.

or the starting experience could be Lea since he really is just starting on a brand new path.

[Rising Dragon]

Between getting to play as Lea and getting to play as Kairi... I'd prefer Kairi. That girl's gotten too much of a short stick in the games.

[cyberdemon]

Kairi isn't a warrior of light from what we know. She is likely being trained under the chance that they are unable to save Terra, Aqua, or Ventus and just so she could protect herself since the princesses of light are going to have importance again. Axel likely will become the 7th wielder of light. Plus I feel he is going to be important to the saving of Ventus/ Roxas aspect of the story.

[Rising Dragon]

And? I'd still rather play as her over Lea. :V

[cyberdemon]

Starting as Axel would likely be a good way to introduce new mechanics like keyblade transformations since he could probably transform his keyblade into the chakrams that we are used to seeing.

[The Green One]

As I understand it, the warrirors of light are:

Sora
Riku
Mickey
Aqua
Lea
Ventus
Kairi

It's Terra who is left out due to being lost by being possessed by Xehanort. He even mentions it during his little monologue at the end of DDD. The bad guys still have Terra's body. Which is why Kairi was brought in as a replacement and the fact that she already has a keyblade.

Furthermore, if she's not intended to be a warrior of light, why even give her a keyblade in the first place? If she's not intended to be, then giving her one is completely pointless.

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Mad Pierrot

Chosen_Hero, Sora wasn't even intended to be playable in DDD as the game was going to solely focus on Riku. However, fan demand resulted in Sora getting the short part of the stick despite being playable.

... Well that was a stupid move, and I say this even though Sora is my favorite character in the series.

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

well with Riku they could use the excuse that with the breaking and replacing of his keyblade he had to redo his training in order to master his new keyblade which is a different type from Way to the Dawn. Hence having to start from scratch since some of his old powers could be tied to the light/dark aspect of Way to the Dawn. That it broke shows that his abilities are shifting thus needing to re-train.

or the starting experience could be Lea since he really is just starting on a brand new path.

He will most likely get the Keyblade of Darkness that Mickey uses while Mickey will go back to his original Keyblade.

Originally Posted by The Green One

As I understand it, the warrirors of light are:

Sora
Riku
Mickey
Aqua
Lea
Ventus
Kairi

It's Terra who is left out due to being lost by being possessed by Xehanort. He even mentions it during his little monologue at the end of DDD. The bad guys still have Terra's body. Which is why Kairi was brought in as a replacement and the fact that she already has a keyblade.

Furthermore, if she's not intended to be a warrior of light, why even give her a keyblade in the first place? If she's not intended to be, then giving her one is completely pointless.

Are we even sure that Sora truly is one of the Guardians? Think about it this way:

1. Aqua
2. Ventus
3. Terra
4. Mickey
5 Riku
6. Kairi
7. Lea

Remember that to this day Sora still isn't a true Keyblade wielder (They really beat you over the head about this in DDD) like the rest, and that Kingdom Key isn't his true Keyblade. I mean, isn't it convenient that Lea's Keyblade appeared at the end? Kairi was already foreshadowed to be one since she is a princess of heart and a keyblade wielder.

So I have a theory that Sora's real Keyblade might possibly be Ventu's Wayward Wind. Let's look at the evidence:

1. In BbS like 25% or so of Ventus's heart is part of Sora's heart.

2. In BbS when you clear destiny islands (or the midpoint in the game) with each of the MCs you are given the true form of each of their Keyblades. Aqua and Terra get them except for Ventus who gets an entirely different Keyblade called Lost Memory that does not resemble Wayward Wind at all.

https://www.khwiki.com/Lost_Memory

Now remember that a Keyblades form is basically a reflection of the owners heart (that is why each keychain for each world reflects what that world is about). So if theu are getting their true Keyblades then that would mean that the Keyblade that Ventus gets is his true Keyblade (also notice the design of said Keyblade, it is an incomplete Keyblade just like Ventus's heart).

Go back and watch the beginning of BbS, Ventus only gains Wayward Wind after his and Sora's hearts merge, also notice that Master Xehanort is surprised by a Keyblade appearing, he doesn't seem to recognize the Keyblade at all which is weird considering that Ventus was his apprentice, which means he already had one before MXs experiment fractured his heart and Lost Memory might be it.

You might be thinking, "but Sora's Keyblade is Kingdom Key", but remember that Kingdom Key is a Keyblade that choses it's master based on how strong their heart is and is the Keyblade of Light which is hinted to have been locked away behind the door on Destiny Island just like how it's counterpart (the one Mickey found) was hidden away in the Destiny Islands over on the Dark Realms in KH 2.8. Anyone could potentially become Kingdom Key's master just by proving their heart is stronger than the current Master (as we saw in KH1 when Riku reclaims it in Hollow Bastion).

At least that is what I think, I could be wrong, but the pieces connect a little too well to be a coincidence and remember, everything in this freaking series has a meaning, I mean, the freaking X in the names of the members of Organization XIII had a deep meaning, at this point anything is fair game.

[The Green One]

Sorry but I can't really swallow the theory that Sora is not one of the warriors of light simply because he's the viewpoint character and the primary protagonist.

Sure he may not of been "The Chosen One" from the beginning, but part of his original character growth was growing into that role even if he wasn't chosen by "Destiny". He's earned his slot.

He earned his keyblade after he took it back from Riku at Hollow Bastion. Riku had to get his own keyblade after that.

Sure DDD said he wasn't a "True Keyblade Wielder" but that was from the villains who's motivations are suspect as they're trying at the time to break Sora's will to possess him. Sora himself acknowledges his non chosen one status but that doesn't mean he hasn't grown into a hero from his own right.

If you want to look at the flip side, do remember that Mickey specifically name drops Sora as one of the seven guardians of light.

While I admit you do have some good points here, I don't feel it's enough to change my view on this. But it was definitely worth considering.

[Galaxian]

Sora is a Keyblade wielder, he simply isn't a Master yet.

It is quite possible that, within the narrative, the Warriors of Light roster hasn't been finalize since in one of the trailers it seems that Sora is trying to find a way to bring back Roxas. The Light side is really trying to get whoever they could find, so the final team may have some surprises.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Are we even sure that Sora truly is one of the Guardians? Think about it this way:

1. Aqua
2. Ventus
3. Terra
4. Mickey
5 Riku
6. Kairi
7. Lea

Remember that to this day Sora still isn't a true Keyblade wielder (They really beat you over the head about this in DDD) like the rest, and that Kingdom Key isn't his true Keyblade. I mean, isn't it convenient that Lea's Keyblade appeared at the end? Kairi was already foreshadowed to be one since she is a princess of heart and a keyblade wielder.

By that theory neither is Kairi a true keyblade wielder, nor is Lea. Neither underwent the ceremony that Riku did. Kairi just happened to touch Aqua's keyblade by accident. She had the ability to use a keyblade but didn't have her own keyblade much like Sora got the ability because his heart is connected to Ventus. She instead had to get a keyblade by different means like Sora who took his from Riku. We don't even know why Lea can use or have one yet.

Yen Sid obviously recognizes Sora as a true keyblade wielder or he would not have sent him on the Mark of Mastery exam. Kairi is likely just being trained as backup incase Terra couldn't be saved. She is a princess of heart, one of those that Yen Sid said needed to be protected. He wouldn't send her to the front lines unless the need is dire.

so the line up is most likely:
1. Sora
2. Riku
3. Mickey
4. Aqua
5. Ventus
6. Terra (tentative pending rescue)
7. Lea

and Kairi is a back up in case the 7 can't be brought together.

[The Green One]

True, Kairi could simply just be making sure she's her own last line of defense. A sensible idea.

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

By that theory neither is Kairi a true keyblade wielder, nor is Lea. Neither underwent the ceremony that Riku did. Kairi just happened to touch Aqua's keyblade by accident. She had the ability to use a keyblade but didn't have her own keyblade much like Sora got the ability because his heart is connected to Ventus. She instead had to get a keyblade by different means like Sora who took his from Riku. We don't even know why Lea can use or have one yet.

Yen Sid obviously recognizes Sora as a true keyblade wielder or he would not have sent him on the Mark of Mastery exam. Kairi is likely just being trained as backup incase Terra couldn't be saved. She is a princess of heart, one of those that Yen Sid said needed to be protected. He wouldn't send her to the front lines unless the need is dire.

so the line up is most likely:
1. Sora
2. Riku
3. Mickey
4. Aqua
5. Ventus
6. Terra (tentative pending rescue)
7. Lea

and Kairi is a back up in case the 7 can't be brought together.

Actually Kairi did, accidentally in BbS when she touched Aqua's Keyblade and it responded to her. Both Mickey and Aqua noticed. As for Lea, either Yen Sid or Mickey must have performed the ceremony, otherwise why would Yen Sid agree to training him before his keyblabe materialized?

Kingdom Key (and probably the Keyblade of Darkness since it is it's counterpart) is the only keyblade that chooses it's wielder, every other keyblade is awakened by their owners after going through the ceremony. Sora is only a keyblade wielder because Kingdom Key stays with him, he definitely has the potential to wield one (Aqua did think to perform the ceremony on both him and Riku but decided not to after she noticed that Terra had already done it on Riku), but he isn't a true keyblade wielder. That is why in DDD Master Xehanort says that Sora is a "keyblade wielder unlike any other", someone that was not supposed to have a keyblade but was chosen by one (especially the Keyblade of Light) even above other keyblade wielders.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Actually Kairi did, accidentally in BbS when she touched Aqua's Keyblade and it responded to her. Both Mickey and Aqua noticed. As for Lea, either Yen Sid or Mickey must have performed the ceremony, otherwise why would Yen Sid agree to training him before his keyblabe materialized?

Kingdom Key (and probably the Keyblade of Darkness since it is it's counterpart) is the only keyblade that chooses it's wielder, every other keyblade is awakened by their owners after going through the ceremony. Sora is only a keyblade wielder because Kingdom Key stays with him, he definitely has the potential to wield one (Aqua did think to perform the ceremony on both him and Riku but decided not to after she noticed that Terra had already done it on Riku), but he isn't a true keyblade wielder. That is why in DDD Master Xehanort says that Sora is a "keyblade wielder unlike any other", someone that was not supposed to have a keyblade but was chosen by one (especially the Keyblade of Light) even above other keyblade wielders.

But Kairi didn't perform the ceremony. so she would be as much of a keyblade wielder as Sora. They have the mark to use one as a result but never properly inherited a keyblade from Aqua or Ventus. Riku did the ceremony and inherited his original keyblade from Terra before he lost it to Sora.

I do like the idea that Riku's new keyblade though is the Kingdom Key D that Mickey has been using and gave to him while going back to his original.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

By that theory neither is Kairi a true keyblade wielder, nor is Lea. Neither underwent the ceremony that Riku did. Kairi just happened to touch Aqua's keyblade by accident. She had the ability to use a keyblade but didn't have her own keyblade much like Sora got the ability because his heart is connected to Ventus. She instead had to get a keyblade by different means like Sora who took his from Riku. We don't even know why Lea can use or have one yet.

Yen Sid obviously recognizes Sora as a true keyblade wielder or he would not have sent him on the Mark of Mastery exam. Kairi is likely just being trained as backup incase Terra couldn't be saved. She is a princess of heart, one of those that Yen Sid said needed to be protected. He wouldn't send her to the front lines unless the need is dire.

Ehh, much as I wish it weren't the case, I think that touching a Keyblade is the only requirement; from there, whether or not you wield one is up to the Keyblade. The rest seems like an official sort of ceremony that, while nice and all, isn't strictly necessary. Terra even says during the ceremony that it's the taking of the Keyblade that matters.

That having been said, while Sora never did undergo even the slightest bit of that sort of ceremony like even Kairi and Lea did, I'd have thought he properly earned the Keyblade when he took it back at Hollow Bastion. And whether that's true or not, there's no doubt that he's one of the seven.

[Rising Dragon]

Everything online I've seen states that Kairi was Bequeathed her Keyblade when she touched Aqua's back as a child. Physical contact and a strong heart are the only requirements, and that physical contact is all that's needed to determine if the heart is strong enough.

Sora is the only one of the three that did not undergo a Bequeathing. His Kingdom Key chose him specifically because his heart already contained the heart of a Keyblade wielder. Ventus' heart inside his own is also why he can dual-wield Keyblades in his Drive Forms, because the second one is actually Ventus' Keyblade. Presumably, if Ventus' heart is removed from Sora's, he'll lose the ability to summon a second Keyblade.