[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[Leafsnail]

"Sorry, madam, Kanon is far too busy fertilizing the roses. I mean, you don't want a typhoon to hit a bunch of unfertilized roses, do you?"

[AuraTwilight]

Except never have ALL the servants been required to clean the chapel properly. Genji does one part and then at most two sevants can handle everything else.

As for "the plan", well....if Natsuhi's really trying to rehearse that shit with only three hours of preparation, then she's stupider than I thought.

Either way there's always simple ways for outs; there's apparently so much to do that I doubt that Natsuhi would ever make all the servants stop to address them all at once. EP7's backstory drops that a lot; if all the servants need to be addressed, she has Genji do it since she doesn't have the time.

[Cao Ni Ma]

...then she's stupider than I thought.

This is it, just suspend your disbelief right here but for every Ushiromiya and everything runs great!

[Leafsnail]

I think it varies from episode to episode. I mean... does Battler even see Kanon in ep4? He could just be an almost complete fiction on some of the gameboards.

[Chron]

Originally Posted by Sherringford

I'll take this one. It's unnecessary because there are better tricks to use in its place, it's unreasonable because it requires us to assume all characters are idiots, and it requires assumptions because up until episode 6 we had basically no evidence to support it. The only way to arrive at its conclusion was "let's try the most ridiculous theory that gets around red and reminds us of Higurashi in a way!" which is bad reasoning.

If you want to say that there were clues for Shkanon back in episode 1 or 2, like you have said in the past, go ahead. But really those come down to "now that I know the answer I can find evidence to support it." It's like arguing in favor of creationism.

Shkanon aside, I will totally argue in favor of creationism.

The beauty of it is that it can mean whatever I want it to.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

Hey, isn't Genji furniture too? But... perhaps we should leave that for some other time, heh.

In all seriousness, this is actually a pet peeve of mine. Almost everyone's refusal to address this frankly rather glaring point drives me straight up the wall.

[Leafsnail]

"As Shannon is to Yasu, Genji is to Kumasawa"

...Would be one possible resolution. Genji never gets any backstory or explanation or anything, it's kindof strange.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

In all seriousness, this is actually a pet peeve of mine. Almost everyone's refusal to address this frankly rather glaring point drives me straight up the wall.

Maybe if we had any backstory information on Genji whatsoever we'd know what he means by any of this.

Hey remember that flashback Kinzo supposedly had where Nanjo confirmed meeting him and Beatrice? No Genji there. Must've shown up later. What happened? Oh well, guess it doesn't matter.

[witchfan]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

This requires an explanation, yes. I'm dead tired, so the post was a bit incoherent. My original post had a link into a video which I thought showed Battler meeting Beatrice, but it turns out was not. I then tried to extract the script from Witch Hunt's patch (not having the game installed at present), but it turns out you can't read it from the text file (duh). Finally, I somehow mixed a theory of mine into the burnt corpse thing. I suppose it's a bit too late for me to be theorising, but hey. I'll present the theory itself:

Spoiler for Long theory:

I have been going on about "Kanon the actual person being dead before the games". What I've been trying to do is reconcile a few issues I have with the fictional Shkannon theory where Shannon and Kanon are considered imaginary characters written into the story as avatars of Yasu. I was trying to solve a few issues I had with it, for example:

- I do not like that you can consider purely fictional characters dead or alive. This sounds too much like regular Shkannon, which I've been trying to avoid. I don't like red text saying "Kanon is dead" when he is a fictional character.
- I want to reconcile the reds in the end of EP6 (I am the 18th visitor; there are 17 people even if we include you!) in a way that is more personally satisfying than some language game.

To do this I assume several things: First, Shannon is Yasu (not some imaginary persona), clear and simple. Second, Kanon exists as an actual person, and he is dead in R-Prime. The Kanon in the games is a fictional character. He is not a "magical character", in that he is an actual human in the story, but he is not "a real-world person". I also assume that Shannon writes Kanon to be both part of her psyche expressed in flesh, and an avatar of (dead) Kanon. Finally, I assume Beatrice's games contain the truth of R-Prime.

I separate the games into two categories: Beatrice's games, and, well, games that aren't by Beatrice. The latter kind - games not by Beatrice - are assumed to have an error in them, quite possibly deliberate: they consider Kanon an actual person, and count him among the "17 humans on the island" (why is the error necessary? Perhaps it is meant as a roundabout hint). This much explains the paradox in the end of EP6 (Erika is discussing the games she exists in, while Battler and Beatrice are discussing the original games).

The question is then, in the first four games, why can we say in red "Kanon is dead" if he is a fictional entity with no real-world human source? What are the privileges we can grant fictional characters?

It is fair game to narrate this fictional character's behaviour, and to allow him to be seen by the detective. To piece-Battler, fictional characters are real. Therefore he is allowed by the games' rules to see fictional Kanon as a human, despite being the detective.

Moreover, for as long as the red text does not have bearing on real-world Kanon, it is fair game. We can safely write "Kanon opened the doorknob" because this is a truth that is only relevant inside of the catbox. It does not need to be confirmed externally. However, red truth can also have bearing on the outer world. For example, when we say "Battler is not Asumu's son", we assume this to have bearing on more than that a particular game. The catbox cannot change the world outside of it. To assume otherwise negates the red truth of much of its power, and makes for some fairly awkward writing.

The conclusion is that, because Kanon has died before the crime, we cannot say "Kanon is alive". The secondary conclusion is that all red text discussing Kanon's life and death status refers to the life and death status of actual Kanon. This is supposed to solve the first issue I presented, among others.

(There is, of course, no problem saying such things as "Rudolf was alive two hours after arriving in Rokkenjima", regardless of its truth in R-Prime. Because Rudolf's life ended inside the catbox, we are free to determine his life and death status in a given time, as long as his final state is similar to his state in the real world. (We cannot say in red, for example, that Nanjo lives after the events of Rokkenjima).)

[Edit: Per Eva is dead - "Perhaps it's better to opt for a weaker requirement: red text cannot contradict the out-of-catbox past." (Should check to see if this botches some other part of the theory.)] [Edit 2: Don't make shit up, people.]

An obvious objection should be raised. Why is Kinzo not attributed fictional status, while Kanon is? My assumption is that it is possible to write him in as a fictional character, too, but it serves no purpose. The purpose of writing Kanon as more than a "magically alive" character is to weave him deeply into the story. This is because, as Chiru shows, he is supposed to be important in understanding the culprit's motive (I'll mention this is a poor choice on Ryukishi's part, though).

There are some flaws with this theory.
- It is fairly dodgy about fictional Kanon's privileges. I'll admit this is a stretch.
- There is no evidence whatsoever about actual Kanon's state before the games.
- It is less ridiculous than Shkannon in some ways, but it is definitely not more plausible.
- That and more.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

"As Shannon is to Yasu, Genji is to Kumasawa"

...Would be one possible resolution. Genji never gets any backstory or explanation or anything, it's kindof strange.

We get a "I OWE MY LIFE TO YOU MASTER" quick throw away line back in episode 2 or 3, but it never gets explained.

Episode 8 mentions something about him being a friend from Taiwan, but eh.

[Chron]

Originally Posted by Sherringford

We get a "I OWE MY LIFE TO YOU MASTER" quick throw away line back in episode 2 or 3, but it never gets explained.

Episode 8 mentions something about him being a friend from Taiwan, but eh.

Now if it were Thailand we'd have something to go on.

[LyricalAura]

@witchfan: From EP4, we have:

Kanon is dead. Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die. In short, he was the ninth victim.

So I think your argument to remove his life-or-death status from the cat box doesn't work.

Originally Posted by Sherringford

We get a "I OWE MY LIFE TO YOU MASTER" quick throw away line back in episode 2 or 3, but it never gets explained.

Episode 8 mentions something about him being a friend from Taiwan, but eh.

Huh, now that I think about it, wasn't there something early on about him meeting Genji during the war? Or am I conflating him with Nanjo?

[AuraTwilight]

Maybe if we had any backstory information on Genji whatsoever we'd know what he means by any of this.

Hey remember that flashback Kinzo supposedly had where Nanjo confirmed meeting him and Beatrice? No Genji there. Must've shown up later. What happened? Oh well, guess it doesn't matter.

My theory is that since Furniture = can't satisfy love, that Genji has a hardcore gay crush on Kinzo.

- I do not like that you can consider purely fictional characters dead or alive. This sounds too much like regular Shkannon, which I've been trying to avoid. I don't like red text saying "Kanon is dead" when he is a fictional character.

Eva is dead. Oh wait that death was purely fictional. Oops.

- I want to reconcile the reds in the end of EP6 (I am the 18th visitor; there are 17 people even if we include you!) in a way that is more personally satisfying than some language game.

No one can claim Kanon than Kanon himself, so someone impersonating Kanon is impossible.

I separate the games into two categories: Beatrice's games, and, well, games that aren't by Beatrice. The latter kind - games not by Beatrice - are assumed to have an error in them, quite possibly deliberate: they consider Kanon an actual person, and count him among the "17 humans on the island" (why is the error necessary? Perhaps it is meant as a roundabout hint). This much explains the paradox in the end of EP6 (Erika is discussing the games she exists in, while Battler and Beatrice are discussing the original games).

Now wait a minute; this is where I start to suspect hypocrisy. You're trying to build a theory that is deliberately built on the idea of characters in-universe being tremendously erroneous on a pretty critical point: But characters in a written narrative can't be mistaken about Shkanon being two people?

The rest is just stuff about Red Truth only being true for fictional contexts, which ironically supercedes your main argument against Kanon being a non-person.

[witchfan]

@LyricalAura: I'm well aware of this red and I've yet to find a satisfying explanation of it (there are some if you permit language games). I will give this more thought in the future.

@AuraTwilight

Eva is dead. Oh wait that death was purely fictional. Oops.

This is a good point, but not for the reason you think it is. Perhaps it's better to opt for a weaker requirement: red text cannot contradict the out-of-catbox past. I don't think this botches any other part of the theory.

No one can claim Kanon than Kanon himself, so someone impersonating Kanon is impossible.
--
Now wait a minute; this is where I start to suspect hypocrisy. You're trying to build a theory that is deliberately built on the idea of characters in-universe being tremendously erroneous on a pretty critical point: But characters in a written narrative can't be mistaken about Shkanon being two people?

The rest is just stuff about Red Truth only being true for fictional contexts, which ironically supercedes your main argument against Kanon being a non-person.

I'm not sure if I was unclear somehow, or if you're deliberately misreading what I wrote.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

@witchfan: From EP4, we have:

Kanon is dead. Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die. In short, he was the ninth victim.

So I think your argument to remove his life-or-death status from the cat box doesn't work.



Huh, now that I think about it, wasn't there something early on about him meeting Genji during the war? Or am I conflating him with Nanjo?

I think you are confusing canon with Will's explanation of Genji over at Golden Gameboard for that one forgery.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Sherringford

I think you are confusing canon with Will's explanation of Genji over at Golden Gameboard for that one forgery.

There is no way anyone could read that sequence and then confuse it with something else.

[AuraTwilight]

This is a good point, but not for the reason you think it is. Perhaps it's better to opt for a weaker requirement: red text cannot contradict the out-of-catbox past. I don't think this botches any other part of the theory.

But Eva survived. Her life and death status IS NOT a catbox. She lives, and so any red about her dying cannot be objectively true, proving that the Red Text only has contextual basis for fictional narratives.

With this, your entire argument against Kanon's imaginary existence falls to shambles unless you revise it.

I'm not sure if I was unclear somehow, or if you're deliberately misreading what I wrote.

There is literally a Red Truth statement that completely and utterly destroys your supposition that Kanon was a living person who died and then impersonated or adopted as a fictional existence by Yasu. Revise your idea.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

There is no way anyone could read that sequence and then confuse it with something else.

Child soldier Genji was something else.

[witchfan]

Now wait a minute; this is where I start to suspect hypocrisy. You're trying to build a theory that is deliberately built on the idea of characters in-universe being tremendously erroneous on a pretty critical point: But characters in a written narrative can't be mistaken about Shkanon being two people?

"quite possibly deliberate". I say it right there in the text you quoted.

But Eva survived. Her life and death status IS NOT a catbox. She lives, and so any red about her dying cannot be objectively true, proving that the Red Text only has contextual basis for fictional narratives.

With this, your entire argument against Kanon's imaginary existence falls to shambles unless you revise it.

Read what you quote. I am not saying red text has to be objectively true, I opted to say it has to be objectively true to (that is, possible when accounting for) the past. Unfortunately, this is where I'm being the most sketchy, as you need to be somewhat liberal when interpreting certain reds (but hey, I haven't seen a theory where this wasn't true yet). I still need to check if this holds, though.

There is literally a Red Truth statement that completely and utterly destroys your supposition that Kanon was a living person who died and then impersonated or adopted as a fictional existence by Yasu. Revise your idea.

No, stop being stupid. Whatever fictional Kanon symbolises outside the story, inside the story he is Kanon. Kanon is not different than any other character in the stories in that regard. The only thing I am doing is attributing Kanon a different meaning outside the gameboard. (This is not, mind, the same as Shkannon. For example, I do not assume Shannon and Kanon are interchangeable, or that they are somehow one entity).

[Renall]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

My theory is that since Furniture = can't satisfy love, that Genji has a hardcore gay crush on Kinzo.

Much as I love this, there's no proof for it, as there's really nothing about Genji at all. I'm fairly sure he actually existed though, as Ange remembers him.

Eva is dead. Oh wait that death was purely fictional. Oops.

Oh wait, you will not find that line anywhere in Umineko. Oops.

The only time Eva is even remotely associated with being "dead in red" is in ep2 and ep6's First Twilights, where she is never actually specifically named.

Matter of fact, the only red we ever get about Eva's life-death status specifically and solely is Eva is alive in ep3. Granted, that doesn't mean she couldn't be declared dead in red within a story, or that some other tomfoolery (such as the Battler is dead/Battler is alive dichotomy) couldn't get around it.

But at no point does anybody come right out and say "Oh yeah, Eva is dead."