2010-12-13, 14:31 | Link #19701 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
|
To be honest I considered that too, but there's a problem - whoever planned this had to be able to predict Maria's reaction to rose's vanishing AND Rosa's negligence. Unless it was Rosa herself I don't think that is possible.
Also - I'm wondering ... Kanon - just who the hell is he? We do know that Yasu transformed into Beatrice leaving Shannon alone. But this implies that whenever we see Kanon this means that Beatrice's facade is moving about or... did he perhaps develop a THIRD personality ? Considering how Kanon seems to be younger and inexperienced it's somewhat a likely explanation but still.. |
2010-12-13, 14:37 | Link #19702 | ||
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
2010-12-13, 14:47 | Link #19703 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
|
What I like the most about the first novel is that it is so heavily spiced with Battler's opinions on whatever happens(those seem to be wrong pretty much 100% of the time) that it is a really interesting job to weed the facts out of them and interpret what's really happening
|
2010-12-13, 14:51 | Link #19704 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
2010-12-13, 15:40 | Link #19705 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
But it makes you wonder just what else Battler has accidentally led us to believe that isn't actually supported by anything but Battler's own assumptions, eh?
__________________
|
|
2010-12-13, 16:03 | Link #19706 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And even in that case how can an underground tunnel affect a flower bed? I don't think there's any relation.
__________________
|
|||
2010-12-13, 16:12 | Link #19707 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
|
Quote:
Also an observation : by the time of the conference Shannon has pretty much decided to go all the way with George. This implies that Kanon had to die not simply vanish, but become totally inexistent in the eyes of everyone. This leads me to a theory that what really happened - there could be not just one big plot, but several, one of which being Kanon recovering Kinzo's body from wherever it was to burn it as his own. I know this theory has a lot of holes but one fact remains - Kanon had to die, no way around it. |
|
2010-12-13, 16:44 | Link #19709 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
|
Not created just for Jessica, but being propped up by her. That is, if shkanon is real then Shannon side would have discarded the Kanon side already but since Jessica fell in love with him she can't do it without hurting her. Thats why Kanon or Shannon just stop existing if any of the love interests dies.
|
2010-12-13, 16:59 | Link #19710 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
|
Quote:
|
|
2010-12-13, 17:33 | Link #19711 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
|
As we're talking about rereading the earlier episodes: I haven't done so for Umineko yet, but Higurashi was much the same in that pretty much everything was foreshadowed from the earliest moments. It's very interesting to reread Onikakushi-hen after you've finished the work.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
2010-12-13, 17:56 | Link #19712 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
I think rationally, Meta-Erika could have reached the understanding that Erika is a fictional character. That's kind of self-evident, but it's easy to overlook in her position. She could then perhaps come to the "realization" that as a fictional character she doesn't really exist, and combined with her... disposable nature to Bern and her request which Beatrice agreed to grant could explain her conceptual denial. That isn't to say that, as a fictional character, she cannot exist. She simply reached the level of self-doubt and temporary vulnerability that allowed her to disappear (similar to Battler and ep5 Beatrice, perhaps?). It's at least insinuated that she wanted to be erased.
__________________
|
|
2010-12-13, 19:15 | Link #19713 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
|
You know, when I see all the debates about metaphysical existences and whatnot here...Sometimes I wonder if this isn't one of those "a cigar is just a cigar" cases.
I somehow have trouble believing that Ryuukishi really thought that far. |
2010-12-13, 19:42 | Link #19714 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
|
Quote:
**proceeds to watch Shannon / Kanon from Dawn continue living without batting an eyelash** And from EP3 red text, both Shannon and Kanon were dead at the First Twilight. And while I dont see many reasons to doubt it, I forget if Jessica was ever confirmed as dead in EP2. Quote:
It gets into the thing, though, where an author can make something that happens to extend farther than even they had intended. That is, they had produced themes and room for speculation that they didn't actively have in mind as a result. I mean, was reading Cracked today, and apparently Ray Bradbury wrote Farenheit 451 decrying television, and the whole "censorship" theme was, at most, on the sidelines of his intentions. Apparently this does nothing to stop people from outright telling him he's wrong about his own book in lectures. |
||
2010-12-13, 19:51 | Link #19715 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
|
Quote:
Also, at the sweet love fantasy ending in ep6. A farce a comedy! e- Preemptively guarding my flank: In EP5 they characters weren't dead till midnight and if they where dead in Virgilia's words "The game has no love" in regard to LD game. |
|
2010-12-13, 20:09 | Link #19716 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
|
Quote:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/what-if-...t-is-retarded/ Sometimes I just ask myself, what if Ryuukishi is retarded? |
|
2010-12-13, 20:12 | Link #19717 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
|
Quote:
Okay, wow, yeah, that post of mine was terribly composed. Yeah, sorry about that. I meant to point out that Shannon/Kanon lives, as far as we saw, in End, not Dawn. And in response, I was always wondering what Virgilia and Ronove meant when they said Lambda's game "lacked love". It was certainly very ... weird, but off the top of my head all I could think was that Lambda just wasn't taking her role very seriously, since she was almost refusing to defend the witch side of her mystery. I'd bring up that they were presented as dying after George/Jessica, except the time of death on EVERYONE in that game is a huge mind-screw anyways. ...and EP 2 Jessica never was confirmed as dead, right? I can't remember. |
|
2010-12-13, 20:14 | Link #19718 | ||
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
|
I don't think he's retarded, but Umineko as a whole can be a very confusing convoluted mess. Just look at Yasu as an example.
Yasu is not solvable by EP 4. I'm sorry, but that is bull. We didn't even learn of a child that Natsuhi received through Kinzo until EP 5 and without that part there's no way you can even think about a Yasu existing. Will said so himself: By EP 3 you knew there was a Kuwadorian Beatrice, but how could you possibly interpret there being a child. Just because Kinzo loved her doesn't mean we knew for sure that he got her pregnant. With the innocent way she was acting it also couldn't be interpreted that she was a mother and Rosa never mentioned anything about Kuwadorian Beatrice talking about a child. Only by EP 5 do we even know that it happened. Quote:
Quote:
|
||
2010-12-13, 20:16 | Link #19719 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Quote:
However we do get some dialogue from Battler. Saying "he's never performed an autopsy before", but "he's sure she's definitely dead!"
__________________
|
|
2010-12-13, 20:24 | Link #19720 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
|
They mention her corpse in red while simultaneously saying that persons where witnesses in that room. I don't know if Ronove's blue truth is effective under these conditions as they seem different (although very similar) from the one in EP5.
It goes like this, anyone who sees a corpse in rokkenjima will instantly know they are dead and not playing. But there isn't a rule for calling something other than a corpse a corpse. But in EP2s case with Jessica it confirms its a corpse by saying that other people where there with it. I mean its ambiguous, you could create a situation where she would still be alive but its very obtuse. e- By this very logic we could understand Erika's ability to determine with red that the victims of the first twilight in EP6 where actually alive. Her very act of doubt determined their status as alive. Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2010-12-13 at 20:35. |
|
|