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Old 2018-06-11, 19:06   Link #81
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiss13 View Post
1. That adaptation change literally throws away three important points about her. Her bratty nature, her entitled nature, and her abuse and absurd reliance on her power are all part of her character arc and the manga establishes all in this scene while reinforcing it with others. But they're all thrown away because...can't make everyone's waifu FLAWED, right?
In this one throw a way scene? No sorry, but that is absoutely overblown.

Quote:
3. The idea that a teenager wouldn't really get involved in something unless it pissed her off is not 'edgelordism'.
No, but the idea that doing so makes you a boring paragon of justice is definitely edgelordism.

Quote:
4. You claim it's a minor change, but these 'minor' changes add up and turn the series and its characters into something entirely different. Replacing and changing the order of events does that to the point where the manga and anime feel completely different. I know too many people who watched the anime first and read the manga and felt that.
Here's another example. At the end of the Seventh Mist incident, Mikoto is the one who proudly proclaims her spiel about hard work and tells of how she rose from Level 1 in the manga, showing a bit of that pride and her own entrenched belief in a just-world fallacy as opposed to Kuroko being the one to give the spiel in the anime. Said belief is toned down heavily as it's a character flaw.
If that's another one of your examples then I'm even more convinced that you're just interpreting these wrong. The way Mikoto gives that speech at the end of Chapter 5 is clearly not meant to be seen as a character flaw but as a clear sign of Mikoto's virtues: the exact opposite that you're arguing.

Here's the scene so other people can decide:
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

The fact that it was instead given to Kuroko just goes to prove that there really wasn't an attempt to to make Mikoto look better.

For the record it also proves that Mikoto stopping those bank robbers the way she did in the anime wasn't OOC.

Quote:
It really isn't minor. It contradicts everything established about his character. It paints him in a darker light than the one in which he actually is. He's not a morally upright character (he's definitely not right in the head in the Sisters Arc), but the placement of his finger chewing scene in the novels feeds in very well to both his motives and his cognitive dissonance that became a part of his character. In the anime it's 'Look how fucking crazy and evil he is. He chews the flesh of his enemies and treats them as lower than gum on the sidewalk.' So, yes. That one scene is not minor. It's actually quite a major fuck-up. And that's just a small number of his screw-ups. I have a super comprehensive list (not made by me) that goes through a number of them for the non-filler arcs.
It is definitely minor. It's a complete throw away scene that really changes nothing much. At the end of the day, it's only a slightly less fucked up reason to be chewing a finger from a person you killed. Absolutely nothing of importance is lost.

Besides, the actual context wasn't even in manga, it's from the Index novel which doesn't make it into the Index anime. They just brought it from the novel as a shout out. The fact that we don't specifically know why he was chewing that finger has got to be one of the most minor things to be throwing up your arms in the air about. People watching Railgun S will have already seen the first season of Index so not knowing why he chewed the finger doesn't result in anything. We already know what his shtick is. We don't need the full context of a finger chewing because that was only just a hint in the original novels which isn't required here.

Quote:
Yet all of this gets past him. He is responsible. As the one in probably the highest position, if he doesn't have the sagacity to put his foot down, he is responsible. If he was the one who did it, he's responsible. No matter what, responsibility lies with him.

Everything you said seems to be trying to deflect criticism as 'minor' or 'overblown'.
Responsibility is one thing. Hating on him for it is another. And it's still overblown as far as I can see.
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Old 2018-06-11, 19:46   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Hiss13 View Post
Everything you said seems to be trying to deflect or dismiss criticism as 'minor' or 'overblown'.
I told you didn't I?
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Btw, I'm interested in the list too, it's been years after all.
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Old 2018-06-11, 20:24   Link #83
Haak
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Listen, I'll own up to the fact that I'm biased towards Nagai. He's done a lot of great stuff recently over the years that I rate faaaar higher than the Index franchise. And he's had a hand in what is probably my most favourite aspect of the Index franchise. I won't lie that I have certain amount of reservations with his ability to write but it's something I can forgive. I don't worship the Index franchise and I've already been burned by it, so I guess to me if his greatest sin is that he directed a subpar anime adaptation of one of the most overrated franchises in the medium (imo), I guess I just can't find it in me to hold that against him.

@ Hiss13 - Apologies for being so defensive on the matter. I didn't mean it personally. But whatever this "comprehensive list" is I'm not interested in picking it apart one by one. If it's anything like examples you've been giving me so far, I've no doubt that I could given the time but I've already spent way too much time on this subject. But I'm glad you took the time to explain these things to me as opposed to being a snide little prick in the corner of the room.
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Old 2018-06-11, 20:27   Link #84
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Offers peace, then proceeds to say "a subpar anime adaptation of of one of the most overrated franchises in the medium". Yeah.

EDIT: Also, you guys still arguing over Mikoto? Really? It's been going on for fucking years already.
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Old 2018-06-11, 20:44   Link #85
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Offers peace, then proceeds to say "a subpar anime adaptation of of one of the most overrated franchises in the medium". Yeah.
Listen, it's my honest opinion on the matter: I can't help that. Better that you know where I'm coming from so you can decide for yourself right? That wasn't meant to be derogatory either. The Index franchise is one of the biggest franchises out there. Anything less than amazing would be automatically considered overrated. If I thought Evangelion was only "good but not great" I'd probably consider it overrated by default too. It's just as well that I love it to bits.
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Old 2018-06-11, 20:46   Link #86
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*reads the whole thread so far*

When the most popular character in the entire franchise gets a pass from doing pretty much the same things our TouMAN does because she is a top-tier waifu. /LUL

And people actually prefer a new season of Railgun than a new season of Index just to see Mikoto doing cute things again. /MegaLUL

And if they do prefer Index over Railgun, it's because they want to see Accelerator's edgelord moments. /SuperLUL

My goodness, TouMAN just can't catch a break.
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Old 2018-06-11, 20:51   Link #87
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I understood that reference.

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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
.

EDIT: Also, you guys still arguing over Mikoto? Really? It's been going on for fucking years already.
It happened before with Index II's key visual back then.
I know some give it importance but isn't THAT important.
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Old 2018-06-11, 21:08   Link #88
Haak
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
*reads the whole thread so far*

When the most popular character in the entire franchise gets a pass from doing pretty much the same things our TouMAN does because she is a top-tier waifu. /LUL

And people actually prefer a new season of Railgun than a new season of Index just to see Mikoto doing cute things again. /MegaLUL

And if they do prefer Index over Railgun, it's because they want to see Accelerator's edgelord moments. /SuperLUL

My goodness, TouMAN just can't catch a break.
This is probably a joke but if this is directed at me then let me clarify a few things for the record.

1) I've never had an issue with Touma being a paragon of justice. It's actually what I've liked about him. The only thing I dislike are the stupid debates that he has with the antagonists but I pin that down to lousy writing and shitty antagonists rather than a reflection on his character.

2) I'm not really that into Misaka Mikoto. Her character is good and I really enjoyed the Sister arc in Railgun S but that's as far as it goes.

3) I'd much prefer a new season if Index than Railgun. For me, Railgun is just a side story at the end of the day. I think it's had moments that has exceeded the main series but I still prefer the main series due to its relevancy.

4) Accelerator was ironically one of the few things I liked about Index Season 2. XP
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Old 2018-06-11, 21:18   Link #89
judasmartel
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
This is probably a joke but if this is directed at me then let me clarify a few things for the record.

1) I've never had an issue with Touma being a paragon of justice. It's actually what I've liked about him. The only thing I dislike are the stupid debates that he has with the antagonists but I pin that down to lousy writing and shitty antagonists rather than a reflection on his character.

2) I'm not really that into Misaka Mikoto. Her character is good and I really enjoyed the Sister arc in Railgun S but that's as far as it goes.

3) I'd much prefer a new season if Index than Railgun. For me, Railgun is just a side story at the end of the day. I think it's had moments that has exceeded the main series but I still prefer the main series due to its relevancy.

4) Accelerator was ironically one of the few things I liked about Index Season 2. XP
No worries, it's not directed at you, the thread so far just reminds me of some peeps on FB who really dislike Touma the Preacher and prefer Waifu Mikoto and EdgeLord Accelerator over him. But anyways:

1) That is why I am glad to see more villains in NT who are actually smarter about fighting Touma and can actually break his spirit.

2) Same here, and I actually like it how she turned better in NT despite getting fewer and fewer screen time sometime after her fight with Brynhildr.

3) Same here, but if there is only one thing I am hyped about on Raligun III, it's the team up of Touma and Gunha vs Level 6 Mikoto (Level 5.53 to be exact).

4) I like Accelerator as well, I hope his Round 2 with Touma gets some justice on Index III.
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Old 2018-06-11, 21:54   Link #90
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I definitely don't see the problem with Mikoto, so with her friends she acts differently than when she is around Touma... Isn't that part of the point of her side of the story? To show us how she spends her time when she isn't around Touma... Am I missing something?

You have to remember that Railgun is far more tame than Index is (as difficult as that maybe to believe) and is supposed to be a kind of slice of life anime with cute girls doing... Whatever they do in AC, so Mikoto being shown in a slightly better light isn't exactly as dissonant as some make it.

The thing is she IS a goody two shoes just like how Touma is selfless to a fault. Both of them are similar in this aspect, they are trouble makers in their own right but when it comes to it they are probably the most selfless people in all of AC (as fucked up as AC is that is a miracle in and of itself), especially after learning of the Darkside of Academy City.

I feel like some of you just see her interactions with characters like Misaki who are really good at bringing out the brat in her, or just saw the first episode of Index and thought that she actively looks for fights and trouble and just decided that that was her default mode. She is as much of a pure ojou-sama as Misaki, Kongou and the other girls from the Garden, the only difference being that Mikoto is a little more street savvy and rebellious than the majority of them. And just like Touma, she is prone to get involved in situations where her moral compass and the fucked up antagonist makes her into the "paragon of justice"

As for taking out scenes like Accelerators finger chewing, I am totally ok with it's omission seeing as those kind of scenes add nothing to the characters development or narrative.
Eh, I disagree. I mean, only partially. I'd say that she was always a crazy vigiliante, not a goody two shoes, lol. Also, though, it's pretty clear that at the beginning of Index in vol 1 she was this crazy psycho girl, and then that got retconned to give her much more of an interesting personality in Volume 3. But, that being said, either way, I don't mind the director. I was just pointing out that railgun paints her a little too brightly at least in the anime. I don't really care though. I like that side of her too, lol. I honestly think fans are more fine with that since she's a girl and tsundere and moe or whatever so it's okay for her to do it while for Touma he's a guy so it's just annoying.

Also, @JudasMartel I agree that Mikoto got a lot better in NT especially recently. It's been pretty encouraging.

Edit:

Lastly, the thing I'm most excited for in season 3 is getting Hamazura some deserved fans.
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Old 2018-06-11, 23:35   Link #91
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Thumbs down

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Originally Posted by dniv View Post
Eh, I disagree. I mean, only partially. I'd say that she was always a crazy vigiliante, not a goody two shoes, lol. Also, though, it's pretty clear that at the beginning of Index in vol 1 she was this crazy psycho girl, and then that got retconned to give her much more of an interesting personality in Volume 3. But, that being said, either way, I don't mind the director. I was just pointing out that railgun paints her a little too brightly at least in the anime. I don't really care though. I like that side of her too, lol. I honestly think fans are more fine with that since she's a girl and tsundere and moe or whatever so it's okay for her to do it while for Touma he's a guy so it's just annoying.

Also, @JudasMartel I agree that Mikoto got a lot better in NT especially recently. It's been pretty encouraging.

Edit:

Lastly, the thing I'm most excited for in season 3 is getting Hamazura some deserved fans.
She was never a "crazy psycho girl" (I personally never got that impression). As I said, she is a rebel and she likes doing things her own way while also being an ojou-sama. In the first episode it is established that she like to test her abilities and that she felt defeated when Touma not only helped her but stopped her most powerful attack which made her recognize him as a worthy rival, outside of that nothing screams "crazy psycho girl" about her personality (if anything it was more close to the type of tsundere that was popular at the time it released, something that gladly didn't stick around).
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Old 2018-06-16, 06:44   Link #92
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Old 2018-06-17, 14:05   Link #93
dniv
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She was never a "crazy psycho girl" (I personally never got that impression). As I said, she is a rebel and she likes doing things her own way while also being an ojou-sama. In the first episode it is established that she like to test her abilities and that she felt defeated when Touma not only helped her but stopped her most powerful attack which made her recognize him as a worthy rival, outside of that nothing screams "crazy psycho girl" about her personality (if anything it was more close to the type of tsundere that was popular at the time it released, something that gladly didn't stick around).
I'm specifically talking about when she first chases the delinquents around and fights Touma on that bridge by trying to Railgun him and she asks whether he's a genius or a disaster. At that point in time before we saw her side of the story and what was going on in her head, she looked she was a psychopath having fun doing crazy things. Later on we realize her side of the story, but I'd argue that at the beginning we didn't get her perspective properly and only later did she get fleshed out enough to have her personality changed upon her being fleshed out. At least, that was always my take... If you look at the LN versus the anime, the first portrayal of her is totally not the same.
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Old 2018-06-22, 13:16   Link #94
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I've only seen the Index animes, and skipped Railgun because I don't care for Mikoto, and wasn't interested in watching an anime mostly focused on her and her sisters. However, is Railgun integral to the rest of the story, and what may happen in Index III?
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Old 2018-06-22, 13:20   Link #95
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No. It's just cash grab on Mikoto character. Also, second part of both series was filer so only first 12 episodes of both Railgun series was even based on it's manga.
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Old 2018-06-22, 13:41   Link #96
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No. It's just cash grab on Mikoto character. Also, second part of both series was filer so only first 12 episodes of both Railgun series was even based on it's manga.
Thanks, good to know.
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Old 2018-06-22, 17:37   Link #97
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I've only seen the Index animes, and skipped Railgun because I don't care for Mikoto, and wasn't interested in watching an anime mostly focused on her and her sisters. However, is Railgun integral to the rest of the story, and what may happen in Index III?
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No. It's just cash grab on Mikoto character. Also, second part of both series was filer so only first 12 episodes of both Railgun series was even based on it's manga.
No it is not a cashgrab (unlike other spin off series for LNs), a lot of the arcs have ties to the main series and you also get new perspectives on certain arcs from the main series, for example, Daihaseisai Railgun side (when it happens in the next season) is definitely a must watch for anyone following the main series.

It's fine if you don't like it but please don't spread misinformation based on your bias.
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Old 2018-06-26, 17:21   Link #98
dniv
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No. It's just cash grab on Mikoto character. Also, second part of both series was filer so only first 12 episodes of both Railgun series was even based on it's manga.
I wouldn't call it a cash grab. It's a side-story with main plot that ties into Index. And the Railgun anime is on the whole superior to the Index anime even though the Index novels are far superior to the railgun manga (which is also solid).

Mikoto is a solid character in Railgun and she acts differently when she isn't with Touma so even if you don't like her interactions with Touma it's probably worth watching.

The railgun filler is also good... but anyway... yeah.
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Old 2018-07-05, 18:20   Link #99
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Old 2018-07-05, 18:26   Link #100
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Looking good, i really am looking forward to this. At least itsuwa and Kanzaki were shown.
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