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Old 2013-07-28, 04:28   Link #32561
GoldenLand
Eaten by goats
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
Turn the Chessboard Over, we state that Krauss's reason for covering up Kinzo's death is because he embezzled money. Is Natsuhi keeping up her delusion for Krauss? The Golden Sorcerer Battler clearly stated at the end of the 5th game: That Natsuhi was pure and faithful
No, you need to look at that red in context. Battler specifically said that in response to accusations that Natsuhi was having an affair with Kinzo. He's saying that she was faithful to Krauss.

The full red is
Quote:
"Because of this, Grandfather's absence has been verified, and the dishonorable relationship between Natsuhi oba-san and Grandfather has been removed from consideration!!"

"Natsuhi oba-san is pure and faithful! I won't permit this vulgar tale you're all so fond of!!"
See, this is why context is important for reds. What Battler was really talking about is very clear. It's not relevant to Natsuhi's conduct other than to her faithfulness to her husband.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
However, I don't believe Krauss embezzled money. Because the Ushiromiya wealth as a whole was drying out.

All of the Adult siblings were losing money hand and foot, Kasumi pretty much admitted this in her pursuit of Ange during the 4th game.
The other adult siblings were losing their own, personal fortunes, not Kinzo's fortune. Krauss was the only one of the siblings with access to Kinzo's money. The fact the other siblings without that access were individually having money trouble doesn't mean anything in regard to Kinzo's fortune.
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Old 2013-07-28, 04:48   Link #32562
ALPHA-Beatrice
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone
From now on I will clearly state, which part of the discussion has become "offtopic", because we either agree on it more or less, or it has nothing to do with the main points (Kinzo's death time and "Beatrice") that we disagree with. Beware the power of copy & paste!
Interesting, truly interesting! **I clapped my hands and created a Tea Party**

I think a splendid intellectual argument like this deserves some tea, no? **I poured in a cup for both of us and began to sip mine**



Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
I shouldn't have entered this part of the discussion, as it does not strenghten the point of any of us.




I shouldn't have entered this part of the discussion, as it does not strenghten the point of any of us.


I shouldn't have entered this part of the discussion, as it does not strenghten the point of any of us.
Very well, we shall drop this part of the discussion.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Very well. Struggle as you wish!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
"sacrificing herself to protect her family (preventing Krauss's siblings from law suiting him) and the family's honor (prevent Krauss's inability of using money to become public knowledge)" would, as far as I see it, fit that red truth. Usually people would say that her actions are "noble". So I don't see a problem with that.
An interesting attack, in fact a large segment of your argument against my theory that Kinzo Died on October 4, 1986 at 0:0:00 depends on the theory that Natushi knew the truth about Krauss.

However, Knox's 8th! A case cannot be resolved without presentation of evidence. Was there ever any actual evidence that Natsuhi knew the TRUTH about Krauss? If there wasn't any evidence, this theory cannot be permitted.


In fact, the opposite: If this theory was known, then the 'red truth' that Natsuhi was "pure and faithful" could not possibly be a red truth. And/or, you could make the argument that it only referred to Natsuhi's sexual affairs. But it appears that Battler stated that in it's general, true meaning of not GUILTY




Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
It was clearly shown that Natsuhi loves her family and would do anything to protect them (Krauss and Jessica). In this case, the only way to save them is to lie, as "appeasing the siblings somehow" is impossible, as all of them are after money to save their own asses as well, which does not exist anymore because of Krauss's incompetence.
I can disprove this theory by presenting another solution to Krauss's problem! The siblings can pool together and use what resources they had. Instead of antagonizing each other all the time, Krauss himself admitted this in the 3rd game in his confession of his feelings to Natsuhi before being magically killed by Eva-Beatrice

I also feel as though we have to put reasonable LIMITATIONS on Krauss's incompetence. I mean, it's not like the island home has been foreclosed, the servants are still(assumingly) being paid pretty well and he's still clothed fairly well. It may very well be true that Krauss lost a lot of money. But all of his financial assets? Not likely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Oh, look! Natsuhi is drinking tea together with the family alchemist Beatrice! Nope... "Right now Natsuhi is drinking tea alone in the garden". And even if you say "that scene was a complete narrative lie", if she had to lie in order to protect what was dear to her, she would do it. She was doing it all for her faithfulness and convinction. I would consider that "pure" as well.
I won't say you lied. To say you lie, would also weaken my argument using the narrative to strengthen my Kinzo's time of death theory However:

Knox's 9th! It's permitted to all observers(other than the detective) to have a non-subjective VIEWPOINT!

Natsuhi can earnestly believe she was having a conversation with Beatrice and still not be classified as 'insane'.

In fact, it's entirely possible that Natsuhi's "conversation" in all realism was her gathering her thoughts with the 'character' Beatrice as an antagonist to those thoughts! This is my most beautiful blue truth yet

*Bern's Ahaha wav, just because she's a bad ass like that*


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Let me propose the following theory: Krauss did indeed want to get rid of the corpse. As he was convinced that he was the new family head, he ordered Genji to do it, while being sure that he would follow his order. However the true family head, Yasu (also known as Beatrice), ordered him to preserve and hide Kinzo's corpse instead, to be able to use it for blackmailing Krauss and Natsuhi at a later point, or possibly as revenge against Natsuhi for throwing her down the cliff. This theory is only possible with BOTH Shkanontrice being the truth and Kinzo being dead, so it is impossible for you adapt it for own use.
Knox's 1st! It's forbidden for the culprit to be someone not shown in the story. Even if "BEATRICE" as the witch was shown to us, the characterization of Yasu didn't exist until the 7th game. In fact, much like Lion and Will she's a fictional character! Yet, she has her importance. Namely, giving us more information about what took place on Rokkenjima. But she's fictional

Furthermore, if we believe Yasu=Shannon/Kannon=Beatrice. At what point did either Shannon or Kanon rise up to be the head of the family?Shannon's relationship with George hasn't even come close to developing by this point, partly because she's still fixated on Ushiromiya Battler! (For that matter, even assuming she could use a family member, like say George's influence. That influence doesn't come remarkably close to have Krauss change his ideas

It's more reasonable for the mistress of the night to be someone in high enough status in the family to be called the second head. This could be the Kuwadorian Beatrice(but I already dismissed the intelligence of her character entirely) OR it could be Rosa, though the youngest of the siblings her connection with the Kuwadorian Beatrice puts her at a higher plane in Genji's eyes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatrice
That doesn't change the fact that his siblings would want to have part of the inheritance. So when they would come to the mansion and say "give us our share", what was he supposed to do?
My apologies, I already spoiled a portion of my argument above. **sips more tea** But I purpose something else to you: The siblings agreed to a lump-sum payment upfront. It's possible for Krauss to negotiate a reasonable monthly or even yearly payment plan. This would give Krauss some time to get things in order and to entirely divert suspicion from his embezzlement or Kinzo's death.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented! Has there been any indication that the siblings, aside from Krauss himself, had access to Kinzo's bank account? If not, then "Kinzo's wealth" would remain untouched and it is known, that Kinzo has always been successful with money (in emergencies he also had access to the gold). So it is out of the question that Kinzo would go bankrupt by himself
Can you claim Knox's 8th in terms of the narrative? You yourself said that the narrative should be permitted. If you declare Knox's 8th in terms of the narrative, I can also claim it to refute the notion of Natsuhi truly ever knowing of Kinzo's death, or Krauss for that matter.

Indeed, if we refute the narrative, we can go back to my argument that Kinzo died on October 4th, 1986 at 0:0:00. Or died in the First Twilight, with Rosa as the murderer(through subtle poisoning) and Genji/Nanjo as accomplices

And let me note before hand that in my example I used sugar, or anything natural that could have tipped his heart.(Though Nanjo advised Kinzo to stop drinking, he never did use his authority as his physician to truly stop him. A family member could claim neglect of responsibilities). In other words, I'm not using supposition, as in Knox's 4th or any other supernatural agency as in Knox's 2nd. It's a true natural death, which covers up a homicide.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
You just hurt yourself with that! This just makes my point stronger, that the only person who is known to be truly successful in terms of money in the Ushiromiya family, has died in 1984!
While it was never shown the other siblings personally accessed Kinzo's bank accounts or any of his wealth, it was shown that Kinzo openly gave them upstart capital to their businesses. And they mostly all flopped. Rosa's little dress store was on the verge of collapse, both due to a staggering market interest and her own neglect while she chased every possible boyfriend who possibly dumped her due to her Yandere-tendencies to latch onto them with her own irrational thoughts about Lady MARIA.

Rudolf's business was being sued by the American Government(AKA IRL like a Megaspace or something). Hideyoshi's came from naivety in allowing his company to go into the market without the slightest hint of protecting his company.


And so on it goes, of course naturally the wives such as Kyrie at best were probably upper class workers and not necessarily company leaders themselves. In fact, while the Kyrie Theory is dismissable Kyrie's actual feelings aren't.

It's entirely possible that she felt neglected, that she felt that pride and envy and lust in her heart.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Krauss said, that he has contacts to the black market, that could convert the gold into money over time!
But wait... why am I arguing against that?
I shouldn't have entered this part of the discussion, as it does not strenghten the point of any of us.
Acknowledged, but the fact remains solid that Unless otherwise shown, Krauss never had knowledge of Kuwadorian. If he did have knowledge of it, he could've very easily paid off his siblings, hid the embezzlement and the whole Umineko story is basically wiped out by that point


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented! Also I don't see the relevance of that.
True, that's why I never tried to solve it with that theory. It's a plausible theory with the Truth of Humans.

Doesn't necessarily mean it happened. I can refer to Battler's numerous false truths in the 1st-4th games.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique!
No supernatural agencies were used. It was reading into the magical interpretation and bringing into the real world with real world probabilities. Is this not what Battler and Erika attempt to do as the Detectives of the Umineko story?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
All of that is pure speculation and doesn't have the power of red truth at all! The "miracle" could also be just referring to the so-called "resurrection of Beatrice".
Duly noted, but you can't deny it can also be referred in reality to initial successes, followed by a dull in said successes later.

I can make that argument by stating that Ushriomiya Kinzo was not the Ushriomiya's first choice to be successor! Only after the Great Kanto Earthquake did he become the successor(IE: One of the few survivors left)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Dlanor said that pieces can not be out of character!
And there's nothing out of character for Kinzo to favor one of the cousins(IE: Ange in the 8th game), more than the adult siblings.


This is proven in the 4th game. In fact, since we're here I'll reveal what I think about Rokkenjima Prime.

Rokkenjima Prime, as we acknowledge might possibly not be one of the games. However, that leaves it to be: Pieces of all the games, here and there. The 4th game for example, I argue that the actual events happened the other way around.

Before teenage Ange fell off the tower and committed suicide, she went to Rokkenjima to find out the truth. We can omit the obvious tribute to Hollywood and the whole chase scene as utterly unrealistic. OR, what occurred was that after finding out the truth, Kasumi's group was following near by and rather than the equally dubious summoning of the seven stakes of purgatory, what really happened was that Ange committed her suicide on Rokkenjima to symbolically be with her Onii-Chan and everyone else

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Therefore neither the description in the initial Episodes, nor the description in Episode 8 can be considered "out of character". Since both are "in character", the description of neither is absolute and must be somewhere between strict and kind. Therefore him "hating" his children is not an established fact!
Let it be spoken: It hasn't been subjectively been proven that Ushiromiya Kinzo felt anything for the Adult Siblings. In fact, he goes out of his way to ridicule even Maria.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
So you finally admit defeat at least regarding Krauss? A wise decision! Now just Natsuhi, Kinzo and Rosa are left! You sacrificed Krauss to strenghten Natsuhi's defense, but don't worry, I will crush that as well!
I admitted that Krauss was deceptive at times, yes to strengthen Natsuhi's defense but I also didn't resign over Krauss not knowing of Kinzo's death.

I suppose I want to have my cake and eat it too, fitting for Lambda's student no ^.^?








Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
But his buisness connections are what almost led him to being bankrupt to begin with! He said himself, that he used the ideas that his buisness partners gave him, but none of those worked out! Just like the idea to "turn Rokkenjima into a holiday resort" didn't work out!
I'll concede to this. If the ideas from his partners failed and he lost money hand on foot, there exists the plausibility for Krauss to embezzle Kinzo.


However, the siblings also admitted that the reason his ideas flopped was the timing, and Krauss's optimism. It's entirely possible that Krauss is anticipating a rebound, and any money he lost(or embezzled) would eventually be returned to him.







Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Krauss embezzlement already happened before Kinzo's death in 1984! He was sure he could get all his money back by "borrowing" some money from from his father, but due to his own incompetence, he only had losses as well. After Kinzo's death in 1984, Natsuhi, who was hiding behind her husband all the time, started to involve herself into that matter as well and Krauss started to be more careful with his money, but he was not able to gain back what was lost until the conference in 1986.
In the first game, we saw that Krauss openly objected to Natsuhi's involvement. The excuse given was that she'd worsen her headache, but he made it very clear that he believed in Kinzo's male supremacism during that confrontation with the Gold. There's no way he would've allowed Natsuhi into his personal life or financial situations.

On the flipside, that interpretation allows you to claim that because Natsuhi wasn't involved with his financial life, it was possible to deceive Natsuhi into believing that the financial side of things was taken care of.

But I'll cut up that objection before you try: It's clear Natsuhi was vaguely aware of Krauss's money problems, maybe not so much the embezzlement but she knew things weren't rosy. She'd be the first to suspect embezzlement.

At least as it pertains to Kinzo and the Ushiromiya's honor, Natsuhi is pure and faithful.


Even if it's her husband, if she found out Krauss embezzled "Father"(Kinzo), she'd go on an outrage. She'd inform the other Ushiromiya family members. In a way, this would allow her to gain more leverage and approval from the other Ushiromiya's, indeed to even be acknowledged as a true Ushiromiya.

Natsuhi's pure and fateful, but she's no martyr. If she knows the gig's up, the very first thing she'll do is better position herself to succeed in a post-Krauss world and secure Jessica's future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Again, your assumption, that Kinzo lost all of his money by himself like his children, is very unlikely, escpacially considering that he was still in possession of the gold. In fact I still didn't see any clue regarding Kinzo going bunkrupt, aside from "that miracle" which you can interpret in many different ways aside from yours. And what about the 1 billion credit card? Will you dismiss it as a "narrative lie" as well?
No, I won't dismiss the card as a lie. It factually and truly happened.(It was Rosa's way of bribing Nanjo and may very well have been, as speculated Rosa's way of thanking Kuwasawa for helping to raise her during the aftermath of Kuwadorian Beatrice.)
]


This following theory can't be proven by the games, but it's plausible that Rosa, like Krauss also had access to the black market. After accessing the Gold, she had a portion of it converted into monetary funds to be delivered to the siblings of Nanjo/Kuwasawa.

Also, you misunderstand my argument. It's not that Kinzo himself went "broke"(in the traditional sense that there's no money, we know the gold existed.).

There was a family fund of money, open access. The family members accessed this fund and all of them squandered it. This means the only monetary wealth left is the gold. But Krauss is never aware of it, neither are the other family members. The only Sibling aware of the gold is Rosa.

Presentation of Evidence: Rosa is the least bit engaged among the siblings in the adult conversation. After all, why would she be? She's the freaking billionaire criminal mastermind in the series.

It's partially due to this squandering of family funds that has Kinzo upset. But the reason he's also upset that they want his money after he's dead is that he knows they'll squander it too!

To Ushiromiya Kinzo, there's no true successor not even Battler(who doesn't return to the island until 1986 and if you believe Kinzo died in 1984, the two couldn't have possibly met) and even in my theory that Kinzo died at least during 0:00:00 of October 4th, 1986 or during the First Twilight(in which he's never confirmed to have ever come out of his room) he couldn't have possibly met Battler or in any way logically changed his mind about Battler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Again, Kinzo is still in possession of the gold and there is still the "1 billion credit card".
None of which accessible by the Ushiromiya household.(The Caveat being: Unless they solve the epitath)

The only one truly shown to solve the epitath is Ushiromiya Eva.But if we assume that Yasu=Rosa then we also know that Rosa solved the epitath and knows where the gold is.

But neither Krauss nor Natsuhi knows. In fact, as far as Krauss knows he's fucked unless he finds the gold

So it's absolutely confirmed that the only ones who had access to anything beyond any public funds made by Kinzo is Eva, Rosa, Nanjo and Kuwasawa's descendants via the credit card!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
FIXED! And I have to disagree. According to the Ikuko=Yasu theory, she can (almost, more or less) live happily ever after with Tohya.
Except, I just dealt Yasu=Shakanontrice a hard ass blow. There's no way either of them as individuals or as a unified person could have ever had access to the Gold, to the card or to any of it.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
No, I've got a valid reason why Natsuhi must have lied at least once, but I will write that at the end of this post...
Duly noted and will be addressed there.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Kinzo is dead at the starting time of all games! The starting time itself was never told in red. However it was said multiple times that the game spans 2 days: October 4th and October 5th. Since it was never said that one day is "longer" than another and no one has narrowed down the time of beginning more than by the date, which is October 4th, I can only reach the conclusion that the game lenght is the whole two days, or in other words: 48 hours from 4th of October at 0:00 until 5th of October at 24:00! At 4th of October at 0:00 Ushiromiya Kinzo was definitly dead and his moment of death must have been before that. But I like your argument that his "actual death date" is outside the catbox. So to respect that, all I say is this: It is impossible for Kinzo to be alive during the game and also impossible to actively influence the game in any way!
I concur. There's absolutely no way for Ushiromiya Kinzo to actively manipulate the game board.

Even if we accept that Kinzo died before October 4, 1986 at 0:00:00 I believe the 1984 date is utterly implausible. I cannot, I will not wrap my head around the "logic" of an invisible character named Yasu telling Genji to preserve the corpse for 2 years, just to play out the Epitath. I'll go so far as to say he died on October 3rd, 1986 at 23:59:59. I will NOT use that 1984 date. Without Love, the truth can't be seen. Natsuhi wanted to bury Kinzo's body with the respect and dignity the Head deserves. However, the reports of the Typhoons and the sudden passing of Kinzo's death made it unrealistic to do so.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
I actually don't even need Krauss "embezzlement" anymore, because you just admitted that he is deceitful and admitted defeat regarding him! You also didn't deny Kinzo's access to the gold and the 1 billion credit card yet, both that prove that Kinzo simply could not have been in a dire situation!
Ushiromiya Kinzo wasn't in a dire situation, the family was. Or even if Kinzo's weath was drained personally, Kinzo didn't care. He was going to die anyway.(And according to his "promise" with Beatrice, all of his wealth would go with it.)

Irregardless of precisely when Ushiromiya Kinzo died, we can concur that his last, dying wish was to find a successor(as well as see his delusional Beatrice.) It pained him to dawn that not only wouldn't he see Beatrice, but that there's not a single sibling qualified to be the successor

If no one solved the epitath, Kinzo would've selected no one. Or he would've selected George in his will, which is why he was assassinated by Rosa and Genji.









Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Kinzo is dead at the starting time of all games! I covered the "most likely starting point of the game" already too, which is the 4th of October at 0:00!
Now I'll use the power of Witches. Hempel's Raven.


In a world before 1986, Ushiromiya Kinzo died.

That world is not a part of the Umineko story and cannot be verified or proven beyond the paux-character Yasu

The statement that Ushiromiya Kinzo is dead at the starting time of all games, literally means he died at October 4th, 1986 at 0:00:00. Or even October 3rd, 1986 23:59:59.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Grayzone
Krauss always needed "just a bit more time". Even if that sounds like an excuse to us, as long as they believe that they can get out of the crisis with that, they will go through with it. All of them are desperate, he and his siblings. They even evidently seriously tried to solve the epitaph, but that just didn't work out in most games.
That's true, but is that really all that Krauss could think of? He's obviously inept with money but how inept? He has some skill clearly, so I'd think rather than "buying himself time" with every little petty excuse, he thought his way through some of this.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Woa, hold on there! I agree that none of the games are actually Rokkenjima prime, but to say that EP1 is prime is a very daring claim! For an individual episode to be "prime" you must meet following 2 conditions:

1. At the end of the game, Battler must have enough time to escape the "Reaper" and must still be alive at that point!
You already don't fulfill this condition as he is still in the mansion at 5th of October at 23:59!

2. At the end of the game, Eva must have enough time to escape the "Reaper" and must still be alive at that point!
But Eva is probably already dead!

So even if you would try to make an Eva culprit theory there at this point, you still cannot explain how Battler escapes!

This may not be relevant to our discussion, but I just had to correct that.
In my opinion, the main reason episode 1(or a collection of episodes, with episode 1's ending) is prime is Lady Bernkastel's statement:

This game shall not have an happy ending

*Ahahaha.wav**

In other words Eva never escaped. The only thing that existed was Maria's diary and the bottles.

But why is Maria's diary and the bottles even necessary? Because no one escaped. No one COULD escape!

Any account of escaping, the account of Eva's "existence" in 1996 is pure and utterly fiction. Just the same as Eva wanting to mistreat ANGE is also nonsense.

After all, it's widely accepted that EVA-Beatrice's existence is mainly to defend the cousins. It's the same reason that if you believe in the fictionalized account, that Eva never tells Ange the truth about what happened in Rokkenjima

**Slashes the fiction with a sarcastic blue sword, Lambda-style and smirks** That fictionalized account is an allegory for the true sadness Eva feels about losing both her husband and her son(to his own madness in helping Rosa). In short, at that time before the bomb went off, Eva had no sympathies or even the slightest desire to remain alive! Ushiromiya Eva committed suicide on the night of 1986!

Or, even if Ushiromiya Eva did want to remain alive it's a freaking bomb. Lady Beatrice said in Red:

Right now, you're the only person on the island and yet you will be killed.

Not "maybe", "will"! There's no way without any boats or lifesavers that any of them could've survived in any way, shape or form.

Die the Death!
Sentence to Death!
The Great Equalizer for the Ushiromiya Family is death!

Umineko's 8th magic ending was a compromise to the inane desires of ANGE, as well as foolish readers(Lady Bern's words) to have some comfort in the idea of a "happy" ending.

Another final nail in the coffin is precisely why the bomb was even on the island in the first place. Who was the original Game Master? Lady Beatrice. And what is Lady Beatrice's specialty? Sealed rooms.

The Rokkenjima massacres is one big closed room murder that cannot be opened up. It can only be peered through with the lenses known as the diary and bottles.


Hell, it's even discovered the bottles and Maria's diary have the same writing. And if Rosa's Beatrice, then even ANGE's diary is little more than Rosa's confession to premeditated murder.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Embezzleing money is more than just "incompetence" or "inability to deal with money" though. Embezzlement is already going into criminal territory. Even more hiding Kinzo's death is. Natsuhi and Krauss gambled with a second crime to hide the first crime. And should any of his siblings find out about even just one of those "crimes".... then he should probably prey to whatever god(s) he believes in.
If Krauss truly did hide/or preserve Kinzo's corpse, how did he do it? If you try to claim that Genji acted on Krauss's behalf, you already played that card for Yasu(Rosa), who you made superior to Krauss. If he hid Kinzo's death, how'd he hide it from Natsuhi who was personally observing Kinzo's room?

Neither Krauss nor Natsuhi knew of Kinzo's death in the case of Rosatrice, or in the case of them knowing I claim that Kinzo died at October 4th, 1986 at 0:00:00 or October 3rd, 1986 at 23:59:59. We can actually use that October 3rd date to completely explain Krauss's actions within that day, as well as fulfill the notion of no participation in the game.

I'll claim with the truth of Humans that my theory of the public funds drying out, and the theory of Krauss's embezzlement are on the same standing. The reason being is that there's no red truth to indict Krauss on embezzlement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
As long as no one has proof that he hid Kinzo's death or embezzled money, he had nothing to fear about.
I concur









Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
You should reread what you just wrote. I could claim victory regarding Kinzo now, because you actually admitted either way that Kinzo died by 1984, be it August (in that case he was missing from that year's family conference as well), October or November. But the "game" begins about 2 years later in 1986! Do you see your mistake now? I allow you to revise it though. Of course if you simply changed your mind, then it is OK too.

Or I completely misunderstood you, so assuming that: August is the 8th month of the year and November is the 11th month of the year. The prediction was "3 months". So using basic math: 8+3=11! And also imagine, it would just be one month! Would you say the time that Passes would be August to August? Of course not! You would say from August to September! The same applies to the 3 month period which means from August to November!
**Sips tea and plays Kuruki**

Indeed, that attack hadn't come out quite as I planned Chaos Sorcerer, so allow me to revise it in simplicity.

Yasu proclaimed that Kinzo died on November 4th, 1984. However, Dr. Nanjo predicted a 3 month time frame. I'm saying that November couldn't have possibly fit in that 3 month window(not without counting August as a month anyway).

In other words, the progression would have to be like this.

August> September >October> November
(zero)> (One)> (Two)> (Three)


But if we count August physically as a month, it's obviously four months.

If all of that's confusing(and it is, even to me). Let me just simplify it by saying we start counting from September if Yasu's theory holds true.

**huff puff**

I myself wish I didn't go there, what a long and tedious rebuttal point. But the point is to fictionalize Yasu's account in any form.

This is trickery on my part to claim that Kinzo died in October, and could only have died in October. Or at any segment in which the prediction was made 3 months before Kinzo's death.

In of itself, this doesn't mean I agree with the 1984 date. It just means I contest against Yasu's claim that he died in "November". That to me is the weak point I attacked. He didn't die in 1984 in any other worlds outside of Umineko and I sure as hell contest he didn't die in 1984 in the Umineko world. I will NEVER accept the notion that Krauss and/or Yasu hid his body for 2 years for the hell of it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
*Cackle Cackle* Maybe you should go back to primary school! *ahaha_low_pitch.wav*
Chaos Sorcerer, in this wonderful Witches debate between us, I never once insulted you. If, however you want us to go into that realm of debate, I can gladly do so




Quote:
Originally Posted by Grayzone
The storm only comes when the all people already arrived, in other words after the 4th of October at 0:00, which means after the game started. And as we know, Ushiromiya Kinzo is dead at the starting point of all games! so the Kinzo we saw there was most certainly not "Ushiromiya Kinzo". That scene could not happen like that!
**I used a blue shield and a red sword to deflect these truths**

It's certainly a scene within the Magical Realm and I'm not alleging that it happened in real life!

But what I am doing, is using it as an allegory for what could've possibly happened in the "real world" of the Umineko Series!

In accordance with the new theory I created in this post, I have two new Human theories about what took place just before Kinzo's death!

If Ushiromiya Kinzo died on October 3rd, 23:59:59 then it was of a natural heart failure of no complications! At the time, he called Genji to his guide and gave him the ring with final instructions!

Though there's no direct proof of this, it's a Devil's Proof And I can prove the validity of it being a Devil's Proof through the fact that Kinzo called Genji his "old friend"

For my Rosatrice theory, I have to make a slight adjustment because the times are important(and we've both concurred that Kinzo doesn't exist in the First Twilight). In this case, I won't use Shannon but Nanjo!

Nanjo gave Kinzo medication during the night of October 3rd, 1986. The medication in of itself is relatively harmless. However, combined with alcohol could possibly produce poisoning or a heart attack.

Because the medication was harmless, Dr. Nanjo didn't directly kill Kinzo and bypasses the red truth that "Nanjo is not a killer", Kinzo could've easily have drank water or anything reasonable with a prescription drug but chose not to. Kinzo himself declared that he didn't care for his life at his dying moments.

Knox's 4th cannot apply here because the type of drug referenced to is a legal drug from a doctor for medical conditions. And due to the Devil's Proof I have no reason or obligation to speculate exactly what kind of disease or disorder Kinzo was afflicted with at the end of his life. All I have to do is speculate(a rather modest speculation IMO) that a doctor would give a prescribed medication.

The door was sealed until one of Rosa or Genji discovered the body(Let's go with Rosa, because "none of the servants are culprits" and calling Genji an accomplice is a mere cheap cop out). Rosa discovered the body, took the ring off and from thereon became the next head.

As for the letter she gave Maria, she easily could've asked Kinzo for an envelope during a time he was alive. It might've been for example a back and forth between herself and Kuwasawa. Other than Maria, Rosa's known to be on relatively friendly terms with the rest of the cousins(and logically this includes Jessica, whose at the island)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Insolence! How dare you ask me something that I answered in the post before already? You even wrote that you accepted my red truth regarding that!
**Sips more tea**. My apologies Chaos Sorcerer, but I don't recall your red truth. Nor do I recall accepting it. That's not sarcasm, I'm reading the previous posts and I cannot read it. If you'd copy and paste it, that would be excellent.

But I contend that at the very least, by proclaiming Yasu to be the new head of the house, Krauss in no way whatsoever was able to retrieve information about Kinzo's death, his whereabouts or anything at all. Genji himself serves "Beatrice" far above any of the other servants





Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
I was actually referring to the tea party of the 7th game! Regarding the 8th game I agree, as Aurora herself clearly stated that.
I'm referring to the 7th game too. I watched an epic video on Battler solving the Logic Error. He did so using a loop hole of Beatrice's closed room definition made in the first game.

Just as the closed room definition was universal, I declare that Aurora's statement was universal for games 5-8. Aurora, in no way whatsoever had any interest at any point writing the Umineko story. In effect, she was among the observers from the Senate.











Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Nothing suggests that 2 years was actually enough time for him to get the money back, especially considering that he is deemed incompetent. That Eva is antagonistic toward her siblings is of course an established fact, as is the fact that Krauss and Natsuhi did expect the siblings to be more aware of Kinzo's absence in 1986's conference than they were in 1985's conference. But I don't know what Eva is supposed to have to do with our discussion.
Just as I attacked Yasu's proclamation of death to open a window to further truly define Kinzo's death, I'm attacking Eva's credibility to establish an alibi for Krauss.


And I have to add that while she's antagonistic towards all of the siblings, she is more antagonistic towards Krauss, far more in fact than the others. She wouldn't pass at any chance to dethrone Krauss, even if it means lying herself!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
All of this can be explained if the person responsible for that was actually Yasu!
Knox's 1st! It's illegal for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early parts of the story. We can excuse the fake death drug for game 5, but Yasu is introduced in game freaking 7! Yasu is either a fictional character altogether, or among Rosa's aliases.(or whoever 'Culprit Theory' you'd like to use).


You personally seem to be a believer in Shakanontrice. Even though None of the servants are culprits and none of them killers

But ignoring that hole Ryukishi put in his own theory, it begs the question: How could Kanon dress as Shannon? Apart from Shannon's curvy body, I sware she has a 30 D. Mere pillows can't do that(and they'd slouch down which would be very suspicious considering Shannon's young age. She's not a old woman.

If however you believe it to be Rosa, that blue statement is actually quite true. It's Rosa who burns the body, likely to make an autopsy difficult for whatever reason.(Since we've denied that Kinzo existed beyond October 4th 00:00:01. I can no longer claim Rosa planned his death via poisoning.)

Maybe it was to hide the pill that Kinzo took or the alcohol in his system, I guess if they couldn't distinguish how Kinzo died it would save Nanjo from medical malpractice charges.







Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
I acknowledge that you use "red" only for cosmetic purposes. I however will try to keep my usage of red tied to the rules.
I do wish to elaborate in blue that in no way, shape or form am I being deceptive. I use the argument of the "Witches" or in other words, an argument that while plausible, doesn't actually exist on the game board.

You can deny my red truths, and thereby of course they aren't "truths" in the actual sense, but neither are they lies. I'm not using the Purple Declaration after all, and I'm not a culprit . I just happen to be someone who got hooked to Umineko and well, Rping it like this is fun..




And now my first attack that is not of responsive nature, so beware:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone
If you claim that Natsuhi is always truthful, then tell me, how is Natsuhi's claim that Kinzo was in his study possible? We don't have enough details for EP1, but for EP5 we know exactly that it isn't possible!

The windows were never opened after it started raining!
**smirk**. Here,I'll use the knowledge I learned from that Logic Error video .Never, at any point was it defined precisely when Natsuhi entered the room and when Kinzo left via the window.

The Windows could've been opened at any time before it rained on that day.

Or the day after

Or after that

Or on any day at all that doesn't meet October 3rd, 1986 October 4, 1986 or November of 1984!

None of that, whatsoever conflicts with any of Dlanor's red truths. Hell, it no longer becomes a sealed room whatsoever and he can leave by the door!

**Wahaha.wav**

Last edited by ALPHA-Beatrice; 2013-07-28 at 05:28.
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Old 2013-07-28, 05:18   Link #32563
GoldenLand
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ALPHA-Beatrice, I'm sorry, but although a lot of effort has clearly gone into your posts, they are on the long side and filled with distracting random reds, which means it's too difficult to follow your arguments and work out what the theory or theories you are proposing are. Would you consider writing a short summary of what your theory is? Maybe of around the length of a paragraph, if possible?
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Old 2013-07-28, 07:17   Link #32564
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
ALPHA-Beatrice, I'm sorry, but although a lot of effort has clearly gone into your posts, they are on the long side and filled with distracting random reds, which means it's too difficult to follow your arguments and work out what the theory or theories you are proposing are. Would you consider writing a short summary of what your theory is? Maybe of around the length of a paragraph, if possible?
My deepest apologies, I shall do so now.(Part of the reason it was so long, was that I was defending original theories that I must admit the Chaotic Sorcerer put a few holes in).

Yasu's statement:
Ushiromiya Kinzo died on November, 1984.


My theories:
Ushiromiya Kinzo died at least on October 4th, 1986 at 00:00:01(IE:At the start of the game) or October 3rd, 1986 at 23:59:59.(Legally outside of the catbox)Or my weakest argument: Kinzo died during the First Twilight, before any other murders occurred.


Erika's theory(and the accepted one by many):
That Krauss and Natushi covered up Kinzo's death for the purpose of embezzlement and family honor


My theory:
Krauss couldn't have possibly of known of Kinzo's body and thereby wasn't covering it up. It might be that he knew, but that it was implausible during either October 3rd or October 4th to give him a proper burial. In regards to embezzlement, I argued that Kinzo had a public trust fund open to the family in general, and that other than the gold this was the Ushiromiya wealth. That pond essentially ran out and the siblings want to extort even more money(which doesn't exist outside of the gold) from Kinzo(Krauss).
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Old 2013-07-28, 07:34   Link #32565
GreyZone
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I don't have time for everything right now, so I only bother to discuss the most important part for now:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
**smirk**. Here,I'll use the knowledge I learned from that Logic Error video .Never, at any point was it defined precisely when Natsuhi entered the room and when Kinzo left via the window.

The Windows could've been opened at any time before it rained on that day.

Or the day after

Or after that

Or on any day at all that doesn't meet October 3rd, 1986 October 4, 1986 or November of 1984!

None of that, whatsoever conflicts with any of Dlanor's red truths. Hell, it no longer becomes a sealed room whatsoever and he can leave by the door!

**Wahaha.wav**
That won't work! You cannot defend Natsuhi anymore, just give her up!

The window was never opened after it started raining. A window, per Beatrice's definition, must completely isolate the room from the outside, which means that the moment the window was destroyed by Rudolph, the window stopped existing! Therefore it couldn't ever be opened afterwards. Until here it was just more or less cosmetic, but now for the real thing:

It started raining before Erika even reached the island. Therefore the moment Natsuhi entered, it was definitely raining, regardless of the exact time, as it was still raining non-stop until the investigation itself! Also Battler himself claimed that Natsuhi would without fail realize that the window is opened, when she enters the bedroom, which is natural, as she always checks how well done the cleaning of the servants is, while being a perfectionist about her own cleaning and she would immidietly spot water drops that got into into the room through the window!

Just give it up. I can only say that regarding Natsuhi, this is Checkmate!



Hmm I DO have enough time to answer another thing after all:

You claim that Shannon and Kanon are different people? OK, fine... it is NOT!
Even if Erika joins the people of Rokkenjima, there are 17 people! How is that possible?


And regarding the red truth you asked for:
Everything that is part of the narrative is enough to be considered a "clue"


Also let it be known that I only argue about the gameboards! If your main motivation is to argue about the events of Rokkenjima prime, then consider this logic battle finished in an eternal stalemate, as neither I can, nor I want to argue about that!
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Old 2013-07-28, 09:17   Link #32566
GoldenLand
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Thank you very much for the summary, ALPHA-Beatrice. I can follow the argument now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
Yasu's statement:
Ushiromiya Kinzo died on November, 1984.


My theories:
Ushiromiya Kinzo died at least on October 4th, 1986 at 00:00:01(IE:At the start of the game) or October 3rd, 1986 at 23:59:59.(Legally outside of the catbox)Or my weakest argument: Kinzo died during the First Twilight, before any other murders occurred.
I don't think that Yasu ever gave a red like that one for Kinzo's death, did she? At any rate, I can't find one.

Anyway, let's see.

We know that "Beatrice's game board lasts two days, from October 4, 1986 to the 5th." and that "Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games!" And we also know from Ryukishi's interviews that "...Kinzô is someone who died before the construction of the gameboard...".

But I'd say there's no need to argue over the fine details about whether he could, perhaps, have died in the last second of October the 3rd or in the first second of October the 4th, because we have clear reds showing that he had already been dead for a long time before then.

It's not possible for Kinzo to have died in 1986, because in game 5, we are shown scenes taking place prior to the 1985 family conference, followed by reds that Kinzo is already dead and Grandfather is dead at this point in time. He can't possibly have died in 1986. He can only have died prior to the October 1985 family conference.

In the absence of any other information, the day that Beatrice claims to have become a true witch, November the 29th (in 1984), is probably that day, although I don't believe there is any clear red specifying that. However, in Umineko, we do ourselves a disservice if we only pay attention to the red text. So it's more likely than not that he died on that day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
My theory:
Krauss couldn't have possibly of known of Kinzo's body and thereby wasn't covering it up. It might be that he knew, but that it was implausible during either October 3rd or October 4th to give him a proper burial.
But, given that I've just proved that he died before October 1985, it would be next to impossible for Krauss not to have been aware of Kinzo's death for that long. Realistically he must have known. It might have been possible for somebody to conceal it from him for a day or two, if they had a sufficient motive (not that I can think of one) but not for well over a year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
In regards to embezzlement, I argued that Kinzo had a public trust fund open to the family in general, and that other than the gold this was the Ushiromiya wealth. That pond essentially ran out and the siblings want to extort even more money(which doesn't exist outside of the gold) from Kinzo(Krauss).
I don't think there's any support for that idea in the text. It seems contrary to the things we've been shown, that Krauss is in control of all of Kinzo's assets (except for the gold) and that the others don't have access to it. Of course, I can't prove that in red, so your theory there could be true (assuming that such a trust could exist in Japan at that time), but there's no particular reason to doubt the plain text of the game. Have you found something in the text supporting the idea of a dried out trust fund?
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Old 2013-07-28, 09:20   Link #32567
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I don't have time for everything right now, so I only bother to discuss the most important part for now:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
That won't work! You cannot defend Natsuhi anymore, just give her up!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
The window was never opened after it started raining. A window, per Beatrice's definition, must completely isolate the room from the outside, which means that the moment the window was destroyed by Rudolph, the window stopped existing! Therefore it couldn't ever be opened afterwards. Until here it was just more or less cosmetic, but now for the real thing:

It started raining before Erika even reached the island. Therefore the moment Natsuhi entered, it was definitely raining, regardless of the exact time, as it was still raining non-stop until the investigation itself! Also Battler himself claimed that Natsuhi would without fail realize that the window is opened, when she enters the bedroom, which is natural, as she always checks how well done the cleaning of the servants is, while being a perfectionist about her own cleaning and she would immidietly spot water drops that got into into the room through the window!

Just give it up. I can only say that regarding Natsuhi, this is Checkmate!
It's useless....Absolutely, absolutely useless!

Certainly, your red truth denies my ability to open the window after it rained. But, what about before? This is a two-pronged attack!


It's true that Natushi would absolutely notice the window open. Unless, as Battler deduced with his red truth that Natushi was in a space where she couldn't notice Kinzo for that one second. And again, it doesn't necessarily have to be during the Game itself! Kinzo could have left the room, and existed in the room, before October 4th, 1986.

I'll add another Red Truth Beatrice said that you can't mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight, but no one ever said you couldn't "see" Kinzo in your mind.


In other words, just like her conversation with Beatrice "the alchemist" was real to her, so too was her conversation with "Kinzo" real to her. This doesn't change the fact that the "conversation" "happened", even if Kinzo as a person doesn't exist!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Hmm I DO have enough time to answer another thing after all:

You claim that Shannon and Kanon are different people? OK, fine... it is NOT!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grayzero
Even if Erika joins the people of Rokkenjima, there are 17 people! How is that possible?
Because there was never an 18th person to begin with!

Ushiromiya Kinzo is already dead at the starting point of all games. We both concur to this. This means that 17 people exist on the island.


Furudo Erika has the same status as Kinzo, in Rokkenjima Prime she was never actually rescued. She is only Lady Bermkastel's piece on the game board, little more.

If I claim that Furudo Erika doesn't actually exist, then there's no contradiction that allows for Shakanontrice's existence.

Knox's 1st! It's forbidden for the culprit to be someone who wasn't introduced in the early parts of the story

Allow me to twist Knox's decalogue a bit.

It's forbidden for the story to be resolved by a as yet unknown character!



And regarding the red truth you asked for:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Everything that is part of the narrative is enough to be considered a "clue"
Ah, I see. And the narrative infers to the possibility of Krauss/Natsuhi hiding Kinzo's corpse.

I did certainly accept that, and will continue to accept that. After all, I can use the narrative to my side as well.

I find it utterly implausible that Krauss waited 2 years to deal with Kinzo's corpse. I mean, I'm sorry. If Kinzo died in 1984, that's the perfect opportunity, before Eva's investigation to get him buried, get his assets and start to cover his ass.

I think the 1984 date is actually symbolic of Beatrice, and I'm going to play the Battler here.

When did we all stop thinking? As far as preserving the body is concerned. That requires embalming, among other things that might cost quite a hefty sum of money for the supposedly broke Krauss. Furthermore, there's no one not even a servant with that expertise!

1984 is what Ryukishi wants me to think, wants me to believe and I definitely, definitely won't believe it! It's inconsistent.


Wooooooooooooooooooo! It's all useless(Lol)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grayzone
Also let it be known that I only argue about the gameboards! If your main motivation is to argue about the events of Rokkenjima prime, then consider this logic battle finished in an eternal stalemate, as neither I can, nor I want to argue about that!
It wasn't necessarily my argument **finishes another cup of tea**. I just thought as a fellow fan of Umineko, a discussion of Rokkenjima Prime might be interesting. I wouldn't have contested your beliefs one way or another about Prime.

Especially since we have the same basic view that Prime doesn't exist.
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Old 2013-07-28, 09:57   Link #32568
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I'll just enter and exit this discussion with two sentences after this.

Ushiromiya Kinzo is already dead before the family conference in 1985!

Thank you Manga-Ange for clearing that up.
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Old 2013-07-28, 10:04   Link #32569
GoldenLand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I'll just enter and exit this discussion with two sentences after this.

Ushiromiya Kinzo is already dead before the family conference in 1985!

Thank you Manga-Ange for clearing that up.
Red text from ep 5 already proves that, I think, but good on the manga for making it extra clear. It's really not leaving any wriggle room, is it?
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Old 2013-07-28, 10:36   Link #32570
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Red text from ep 5 already proves that, I think, but good on the manga for making it extra clear. It's really not leaving any wriggle room, is it?
**Grumbles** I Resign... The Witch of Intellectualism resigning....It's truly a shame.

But even as I resign, I have some weak questions.

According to Lady Erika there's 3 main components to solving a mystery: The Who Dun it, Why Dun it and How they did it.

In my opinion, who and why is partially solved, but partially not solved.

I still can't fathom why Krauss, assuming he's embezzling money from Krauss, allows his corpse to stay in his father's room for a year and a half?

If I were Krauss, in 1984 I would've at the very least said something like 'Kinzo wishes to be buried in his room' or something. If they didn't want to do a proper burial.

And if they preserved the corpse, how could they have possibly done it? I won't bother with who, that'll be unfair. Ryukishi likely didn't give us that information. But surely he gave us enough of a hypothesis to explain the "how dun it'

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Old 2013-07-28, 11:26   Link #32571
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To think I could have saved so much time just by remembering that one little red truth... well anyway, I refreshed my memory of Umineko a bit, so maybe it is not that bad. A fun "competition" once in a while is not bad either.
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Old 2013-07-28, 12:48   Link #32572
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To think I could have saved so much time just by remembering that one little red truth... well anyway, I refreshed my memory of Umineko a bit, so maybe it is not that bad. A fun "competition" once in a while is not bad either.
Agreed. I still believe there's some kind of flaw, Kinzo was dead before either family conference but I don't think there's absolute confirmation that Krauss hid the corpse or that if he did, that Natsuhi could be implicated.

If those things can be implicated, then I still insist that a part of Erika's argument, somewhere is unfounded. During that game in particular, Erika was intellectually dishonest. Especially when she tried to infer an affair with Kinzo.

Basically, I'd like our game to continue somewhere. If you'd like, you can start our next game, Chaos Sorcerer ^^.
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Old 2013-07-28, 14:32   Link #32573
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
I still can't fathom why Krauss, assuming he's embezzling money from Krauss, allows his corpse to stay in his father's room for a year and a half?
Because, in case he is actually kept in the study, this is the safest room to keep him. His occult hobby leaves enough room to put all kinds of incenses, perfumes and horribly smelling substances in the room that cover any smell that Kinzo's corpse might produce. Considering that there are enough stories of corpses being discovered years after people died in their own apartment and the study is practically a fortress it's not even necessary that any odor would be noticeable if only slightly concealed.

Also, visitors only come to the island on a rare basis and with the obvious assistance of the servants it's not hard to create the illusion of "hermit Kinzo" for at least a while. On the mainland or outside the mansion, somebody could have stumbled over the digging site, a dog or bird might have dug up a bone, even in the ocean there's the risk of him being washed ashore somewhere else.

Also, it is exactly that point that Kinzo needed to be alive for Krauss' purposes.
He not only used the Ushiromiya fortune as collateral but also the island itself. As soon as Kinzo had been declared dead, people would have come to collect on Krauss and that would have shown that he has nothing and would have thus lost even their home.
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Old 2013-07-28, 23:56   Link #32574
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Mmmmmmmmmm.

I still disagree with that assessment ; there's no reason to hold onto Kinzo's corpse, at all, since they plan for it to go missing, anyway. The study is a strong holding room, but not impenetrable - if one of the siblings were very insistent, they could still climb into the window, or strong arm Genji into giving them the key.

The land outside the mansion is still uncultivated ... so while the odds of someone finding his corpse out there are technically higher than 0%, it's very insignificant. I don't think there are any overly large animals on Rokkenjima (probably just birds, insects, rodents), or someone would've mentioned it, so if it's buried in an inconspicuous spot, maybe somewhere difficult to reach, it's very unlikely it would ever be found unless the island were to see some major development in the future.

...or we can go fly off the morbidity scale and say they buried him under the rose garden, which causes that one, singular flower to wilt every year.
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Old 2013-07-29, 00:38   Link #32575
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Mmmmmmmmmm.

I still disagree with that assessment ; there's no reason to hold onto Kinzo's corpse, at all, since they plan for it to go missing, anyway. The study is a strong holding room, but not impenetrable - if one of the siblings were very insistent, they could still climb into the window, or strong arm Genji into giving them the key.
They COULD, but that's always the risk factor involved in such games (sounding like Kinzo himself here). It's just very unlikely for somebody among the siblings to randomly climb up ladders or force Genji to do anything, so that Krauss has a certain percentage of luck on his side.

But on the other hand you're slightly off I think, because I believe that Kyrie and Eva were hitting on something in I think it was EP3 that Krauss and Natsuhi also knew very well, Kinzo can't go missing. Kinzo has to die, best a natural death or in an unforeseeable accident, because if not Krauss looses the inheritance and his position as well. To the position of the next head the care-taking of the estate including Kinzo is bound. Should Kinzo die due to the negligence of Krauss or any of his family members or staff, he would loose everything.

Quote:
it's very unlikely it would ever be found unless the island were to see some major development in the future.
Like the development of the Rokkenjima resort?
Also don't forget that the island technically doesn't even belong to the Ushiromiya's anymore, so in case he is forced off the island he would at least like to have the corpse close to him, where he can easily move it.

It's also a pretty common thing to do for people who hide a death, even though it is technically a stupid idea. But you feel better if you have close watch over the thing you are hiding instead of tossing it away somewhere where everything could happen to it. And like already said, they need the corpse of Kinzo.
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Old 2013-07-29, 01:50   Link #32576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
They COULD, but that's always the risk factor involved in such games (sounding like Kinzo himself here). It's just very unlikely for somebody among the siblings to randomly climb up ladders or force Genji to do anything, so that Krauss has a certain percentage of luck on his side.
It's true it's unlikely, but not impossible. They have so much sheer space available to them, it seems so illogical to bother keeping him in the house at all, where the odds of finding him are anything higher than 0.


Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
But on the other hand you're slightly off I think, because I believe that Kyrie and Eva were hitting on something in I think it was EP3 that Krauss and Natsuhi also knew very well, Kinzo can't go missing. Kinzo has to die, best a natural death or in an unforeseeable accident, because if not Krauss looses the inheritance and his position as well. To the position of the next head the care-taking of the estate including Kinzo is bound. Should Kinzo die due to the negligence of Krauss or any of his family members or staff, he would loose everything.
Not necessarily - an autopsy would probably be able to tell if he'd been dead for such a super long time, as opposed to just recently, yes? And it's been, like, 2 whole years. I don't remember the specifics of what Eva and Kyrie said at that time, but Kratsuhi's plan was certainly to say Kinzo had gone missing... you say they need his corpse, but I'd say having his corpse examined would just ruin them. If they're going to have to lie about it, they may as well take the lie with the better odds of success.


Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Like the development of the Rokkenjima resort?
Also don't forget that the island technically doesn't even belong to the Ushiromiya's anymore, so in case he is forced off the island he would at least like to have the corpse close to him, where he can easily move it.
Aye, that is true. Rudolf seemed confident, though, that nothing would ever come of the resort because of it's relatively bad location. And if he were forced off the island, I imagine it's not like getting evicted from an apartment, where you come home to find your stuff on the lawn ... if they know the spot theu buried him under, it wouldn't be unreasonable to go and get it, with Genji and Kanon's help.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
It's also a pretty common thing to do for people who hide a death, even though it is technically a stupid idea. But you feel better if you have close watch over the thing you are hiding instead of tossing it away somewhere where everything could happen to it. And like already said, they need the corpse of Kinzo.
Agreed that Kratsuhi is easily the weakest pair, brain-wise, so they might not think all their plans out to their logical conclusions. However, this isn't just "anywhere" - very, very few people have entire islands to themselves. The worst that would happen to Kinzo's corpse, in an isolated spot in Rokkenjima, buried several feet under, is that a storm might knock it a few inches this way or that. I'm not suggesting they chuck him into the bushes behind the chapel.
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Old 2013-07-29, 08:07   Link #32577
Renall
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The bushes behind the chapel are still a safer spot than anywhere in the house. If Krauss's surveyors turned up the hidden mansion (and I can't see why they wouldn't have), putting it there is even safer still.

The one and seemingly only advantage to keeping it in the house is that it makes it harder for a servant to betray them. If Kinzo were buried out in the woods and Kanon knew of it, how can Krauss be sure that Kanon didn't let slip that secret to Eva for money and show her? Since he'd be nowhere near the storage/burial site most of the time, there's no way he could prevent it. At least with the study as a barrier and his office not far away it'd be harder to betray him.

Of course that assumes Krauss never actually leaves the island, as once he does there's always that same prospect unless he brings Kinzo with him. And well... I'm not sure how that would go over. So I guess Natsuhi could just be extra-vigilant since it seems like she never leaves.
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Old 2013-07-29, 10:18   Link #32578
ALPHA-Beatrice
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I have a new game to play, why don't we try to figure out the culprit for the 5th game. We know it's not Natsuhi, and I utterly Deny Black Battler

In lieu of the game, I suggest a Krauss-Culprit for specifically the 5th game! The motive: Assassinating all of the family members(except Jessica and Natsuhi of course)to protect the family.

Erika's Seals are precisely that, her's. The Culprit never used them and frankly are inadmissable as evidence. I'm sorry to burst her bubble, but creating a crime scene doesn't mean one actually exists.

Because of Battler's red argument, the "truth" that Krauss died is hereby implausible.

Along with Natsuhi and Genji, Krauss was the only one in the mansion.

Krauss either used the fake death drug or created a false corpse for Jessica's body, hiding her somewhere(likely her room) while the others are most certainly dead. The existence of one paux-corpse allowed for the validity of Battler's statement.

Just because Genji doesn't exist inside the mansion, doesn't necessarily mean he couldn't have done any illegal activities while walking out of the mansion. He could've been Krauss's accomplice.

For the fifth game, Krauss is Yasu!

Of all of the culprits, Krauss's physique makes him the most plausible(aside from Gohda) for some of the brutal deaths that we've seen from the Umineko series.

Feeling the pressure from the siblings, might've been what pushed Krauss over the edge to commit the murders.

The phone call that Natsuhi received from the man from 19 years ago, may very well have been a former accomplice of Krauss, further blackmailing the family and pushing them into making the decision to murder.
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Old 2013-07-29, 14:06   Link #32579
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
I have a new game to play, why don't we try to figure out the culprit for the 5th game. We know it's not Natsuhi, and I utterly Deny Black Battler

In lieu of the game, I suggest a Krauss-Culprit for specifically the 5th game! The motive: Assassinating all of the family members(except Jessica and Natsuhi of course)to protect the family.

Erika's Seals are precisely that, her's. The Culprit never used them and frankly are inadmissable as evidence. I'm sorry to burst her bubble, but creating a crime scene doesn't mean one actually exists.

Because of Battler's red argument, the "truth" that Krauss died is hereby implausible.

Along with Natsuhi and Genji, Krauss was the only one in the mansion.

Krauss either used the fake death drug or created a false corpse for Jessica's body, hiding her somewhere(likely her room) while the others are most certainly dead. The existence of one paux-corpse allowed for the validity of Battler's statement.

Just because Genji doesn't exist inside the mansion, doesn't necessarily mean he couldn't have done any illegal activities while walking out of the mansion. He could've been Krauss's accomplice.

For the fifth game, Krauss is Yasu!

Of all of the culprits, Krauss's physique makes him the most plausible(aside from Gohda) for some of the brutal deaths that we've seen from the Umineko series.

Feeling the pressure from the siblings, might've been what pushed Krauss over the edge to commit the murders.

The phone call that Natsuhi received from the man from 19 years ago, may very well have been a former accomplice of Krauss, further blackmailing the family and pushing them into making the decision to murder.
Well, ok...

Ushiromiya Krauss is not the culprit. And he was killed shortly after Natsuhi heard his voice over the phone.

Furthermore there were no indications or "clues" that Krauss had multiple personalities and at that point he was not considered to be "Kinzo" either, as that title was given to Battler.

I don't plan to write any 100-lines walls of text anytime soon...
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Old 2013-07-29, 18:03   Link #32580
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Well, ok...

Ushiromiya Krauss is not the culprit. And he was killed shortly after Natsuhi heard his voice over the phone.

Furthermore there were no indications or "clues" that Krauss had multiple personalities and at that point he was not considered to be "Kinzo" either, as that title was given to Battler.

I don't plan to write any 100-lines walls of text anytime soon...
My apologies, my apologies. But we are in this thread to discuss theories no? So presenting theories, no matter how unlikely is what keeps the conversation alive.

Did anyone verify Krauss's death? If say, Dr. Nanjo or anyone didn't exactly examine his corpse, it's possible he might've been attacked! Let's take George, while Krauss was trying to murder George, George saw an opening and fought back.

Krauss doesn't have to be "Kinzo" to carry out the murders, he just needs a motive and I gave him a damn good one

In this case, any following of the epitath whatsoever(if it even matters at this point) is purely coincidental. I eliminate all fantasy and am turning this into a cold-blooded mystery, where to save every penny a man is committed to murdering almost his entire family.
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