How should we react to visual gameplays' featuring disturbing themes?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by -KarumA-

Must add that it doesn't matter if video games are or are not the cause of violence, frankly I don't care
This video game is disrespectful towards women and I as one who has been through such a situation am glad they are doing something about it when it comes to this game because as a victim the last thing you want is hear about people who actually play this game
If I were to even see someone play this game or hear one word that they play this I would be the one to have more violent tendencies towards them because they do not know what it is like to be in a situation like that and are having a good time doing in a game which ultimate goal is rape

Just to be clear, you are taking this same approach to any and all media which uses rape as a means of "entertainment"? Specifically, American shows like Law and Order: SVU which routinely has women and children raped and abused for the sake of entertainment, or to reach back into the archives, movies such as The Accused, Kids or American Psycho (which some may say make rape "sexy"), or what is possibly the "best" rape scene, Boys Don't Cry. To put it another way, are you a proponent of Inga Muscia and her book Cunt in which she says that any depiction of rape, no matter the context, is morally wrong.

[izmosmolnar]

Well, to be honest even though I'm disgusted with the idea of rape, I'm not particularly happy about banning such games.
Next time they could ban different kind of eroge, and in a few years time I have to hide my Visual Novel collection in the cellar...

[Kitsu]

Normally I hate it when people start banning things and I'm a very open minded person, but this time I have to agree.
Everyone says if we ban one thing then they will ban another thing.
I don't think they will be able to ban eroge cause it's the same as pornography only played, so your games are safe. In eroge you don't get points for using violence against women!!
but banning this disgusting rape-games is the right decision. It shows that many people are clearly against it and many people won't even try out those games. Rape-Games are an insult to women. in movies and games rape is portrayed negative but in those games rape is your highest goal and that totally disgusts me. I'm sorry but that's my opinion.
In this case there is no "gray" for me, no saying "People need their freedom".

[ChainLegacy]

People are becoming more and more content to toss any semblance of 'freedom' they possess straight into the trash. If you don't like the stupid rape game, don't play it, don't look at it, and don't talk about it. That's a quick, easy solution that doesn't involve thought policing or a ridiculous waste of resources.

This is the modern-day equivalent of book-burning, and you're all blinded by the fact that the content offends you. Wait until the 'good' stuff gets banned, and then come back to me.

[Kitsu]

modern-day equivalent of book-burning

Nope sorry.
I know of a special case of book burning(Of course I know the history of my country) which took place in my city many years ago. My grandparents told me about it. So I don't know it from some books but from real people. They burned books which represent other people opinions and believes! It didn't offend them in any way it was just not what they believed and their opinion. So they burned it. So you say raping-games which are for the sick enjoyment of some men are the same?
No seriously! Acceptance has it limits!
but well if you think so, then that's your opinion

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

modern-day equivalent of book-burning

Nope sorry.
I know of a special case of book burning(Of course I know the history of my country) they burned books which represent other people opinions and believes! It didn't offend them in any way it was just not what they believed and their opinion. So you say raping-games which are for the sick enjoyment of some men are the same?
No seriously! Acceptance has it limits!

It is exactly the same thing.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Normally I hate it when people start banning things and I'm a very open minded person, but this time I have to agree.

"Open minded" doesn't mean "but only when I don't care".

Everyone says if we ban one thing then they will ban another thing.

Indeed, the slippery slope argument isn't a very good one, if that's what you're getting at. But that's not the only problem with censorship.

I don't think they will be able to ban eroge cause it's the same as pornography only played, so your games are safe. In eroge you don't get points for using violence against women!!

Depends on the eroge, I guess. Anyway, eroge should be banned - or not - on the exact same basis as rape game. They offend a lot of people. They teach "wrong" values of promiscuity and underage sex to kids.

but banning this disgusting rape-games is the right decision. It shows that many people are clearly against it and many people won't even try out those games.

"Many people" are against a lot of things, and won't even try them. Not much of a basis for laws. Especially when no one's being forced to play.

Rape-Games are an insult to women. in movies and games rape is portrayed negative but in those games rape is your highest goal and that totally disgusts me. I'm sorry but that's my opinion.

So? Why should lawmakers give a flying fig about your "opinion"? Prove that rape game are harmful, in some way that's less abstract that "their very existence makes unspecified women cry", and then we can talk. Until and unless you do that, there's no reason to forbid it.

See, I'm liberal. Lots of things disgust me, like the color pink, but I'm not so conceited as to think we should forbid them for the sake of my well-being.

In this case there is no "gray" for me, no saying "People need their freedom".

What, because you're offended? Who died and made you absolute monarch?

[Vexx]

They burned books which represent other people opinions and believes! It didn't offend them in any way it was just not what they believed... so they burned them.

Please explain to me how that makes sense to you and differs from "I don't like that, lets burn it" o.O

[Kitsu]

Rape-games offend many people and is an insult to women , those books weren't
of course I get your point and why you are all saying that, but like I said it's my opinion and this is a forum where people state there opinion about the topic.
i don't think my opinion will change, at least not now maybe never.

"Open minded" doesn't mean "but only when I don't care"

.

I know what open-minded means and I can still say "I'm open-minded" There are some things that just go over my limit of tolerance and acceptance. And those rape-games belong to those things. Maybe it's just they way I was raised or jut the way I am.

Depends on the eroge, I guess. Anyway, eroge should be banned - or not - on the exact same basis as rape game. They offend a lot of people. They teach "wrong" values of promiscuity and underage sex to kids.

If teaching the wrong values would be a reason to ban things , then they must ban EVERYTHING except Sesam Street maybe. No action-movies, no nothing. And I don't think such thing would happen.

[yezhanquan]

As always, Voltaire's words should come to mind: I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

So far, we've been talking about rape-sims and eroges. What makes games with hyper-violence any more tolerable?

[Vexx]

Rape-games offend many people and is an insult to women , those books weren't

Yet... they burned them and wouldn't tolerate their existence in that society. The problem here is that they rationalized the behavior of suppressing differing ideas and the expression of those ideas. That's easy to do if you've already set a sloppy line in the sand (poorly written laws that don't actually address real problems correctly) and often leads to zealotry.

These games have disturbing content. So does much of night time television and for that matter, what passes for "news" on local tv stations. Making women feel powerless and parents overparanoid about their children is bread and butter for much of television. Where's the righteous fury on that? Why does *this* particular method of presenting the disturbing material cause so much furor? (a Choose Your Own adventure that amounts to a slide show with a branching storyline).

Anecdote: some guys and I went to see the DeNiro remake of Cape Fear back in 1992. That damned movie STILL gives me moments of horror recalling the rape scene. One could argue DeNiro's character was justified in his revenge against the lawyer by destroying everyone around him. Its a complex compelling movie that I'm rather sorry I ever watched.

Roleplaying games, .... sometimes you take on the role of an "evil" character. Is that going to lead you to do evil in real life? (all those poor actors who have to play villains..... the horror).

[Anh_Minh]

Kitsu: Ah. So, you won't even pretend to have the welfare of your fellow man in mind, and instead go for a ban on the solve basis of your being offended?

[rio]

Originally Posted by Vexx

In news of "imaginary fiction witch hunters", the Boston Herald is pumping a story about "child pornography" (or rather, imaginary fictional rape-sim games sold in Japan).

http://www.bostonherald.com/business...72572&srvc=rss

And once again, rather than hunt the Real Thing, they focus on fantasy targets. Yes, this stuff is trash.... but its *imaginary* trash (so why aren't they trying to stop serial killer slasher films?)

To be honest,as a Japanese women, i haven't been so much surprised that they make games like Raplay. My country's people are very used to those things related to molesting or raping women . Of course that doesn't mean that women here welcome the games, but since there is a notion the men very look down on women, and just think women are the men's slave in the bottom of the society still, women are always harmed or insulted by sexual harrassment or discrimination.
In a result, about 90 %women have been harmed by sexual harrasment in Japan, that rate is the highest by far among countries in the world. US's rate is about 40~45% and that's average.
I actually feel those tendency is bad, but that won't be solved easily because the fact many guys here dream to rape or molest women is very true.
They want to see women tortured , more women get annoyed, more they pleased. That's not only by a Sexual desire, but also Bullying and Releasing their stress by their busy daily life in this crammed country.
So that's a complicate and heavy problem.

But, i can't deny that those games increase the desire and make the men want to rape or molest women in reality to know how true the games are.
Though it would be difficult to change the nature of the society and the men, we may be able to stop the desire to be bigger. Like, by banning those games or, even considering about whether those games have right to exist morally.

I think that people overseas would be aware of and point out the Japanese evil side is a very good way to go to the next demension. Overseas's reaction would give the new views to Japanese society where those disturbing things to women is taken granted by the men dominating society.
And i hope the tendency will be changed little by little.

[Throne Invader]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

When I played that game, I told myself, "Thank goodness the game is so lifelike and real so that it replaces the actual event in real life." "Morally questionable" entertainment aren't as bad as it seems. We should be glad that it exists so it can substitute the evil desires we want to enact out in real life.

I really couldn't help but comment on how disgusting your reaction was. O-M-G And to be so open about it.

Even if banning those games won't lessen the cruelty the women receive from guys, it'll help women to be more respected in one way or another.

[yezhanquan]

I'm thinking that as it is now, aren't such games sold "below the counter"? Why is there a need to change the status quo? It's not as if we're fighting for such games to be sold openly.

Originally Posted by AmoreDoll

I really couldn't help but comment on how disgusting your reaction was. O-M-G And to be so open about it.

Even if banning those games won't lessen the cruelty the women receive from guys, it'll help women to be more respected in one way or another.

Trust me. My dreams at night are at least 10 times worse than what any "rape-sim" game can possibly replicate.

[-KarumA-]

Originally Posted by james0246

Just to be clear, you are taking this same approach to any and all media which uses rape as a means of "entertainment"? Specifically, American shows like Law and Order: SVU which routinely has women and children raped and abused for the sake of entertainment, or to reach back into the archives, movies such as The Accused, Kids or American Psycho (which some may say make rape "sexy"), or what is possibly the "best" rape scene, Boys Don't Cry. To put it another way, are you a proponent of Inga Muscia and her book Cunt in which she says that any depiction of rape, no matter the context, is morally wrong.

the difference is that this game was build with the main goal being raped by another person. yes there are victims of rape in law and order but that is not in the end the reason why an episode was made, in law and order's case the goal would be to prosecute the person who did it, there is a difference between those situations. There is not a movie in cinema's in which the summary even is "the main character rapes this and that person" and this is what is important. I know of rape scenes in movies etc. but as long as it isn't the ultimate goal of the main character and is merely a part of the movie I can live with it, but if something is made like a movie or game in which the main plot line is to rape people then it is wrong. I don't agree with all things being banned, just to have that cleared out but in this case I think they are going too far

[LeoXiao]

I don't think that banning the games themselves will change anything. People make freeware all the time, and they can make a homemade rape simulator as well if they felt like it. Moreover, such games have already been produced, and even if they are banned, people will just distribute them around the Internet, and people who want to download them will do so. No government can stop this unless they want to become totalitarian.

I think the issue is that our culture, to a certain extent, is obsessed with violence and sex themselves as facets of entertainment. Let me demonstrate: Men are sexually attracted to women, especially attractive ones, and this is normal. This attraction to women is expressed in many different ways, such as art. Nobody puts ugly women in their books, paintings, or movies, and this is because if the women portrayed in books, films, and pictures were ugly, people wouldn't like them as much, and any deeper meaning or themes intended by the artwork would be soured.
Now, on the other hand, I feel that the media and culture of today is geared more and more for the depiction of sex and violence just for its own sake. A man who watches, say, a commercial featuring a beautiful, scantily clad model might start getting horny, and feel the need to watch porn. The guy who has just watched an ad on TV will go to his computer and have a good time. As time goes on and more sexual stimulus from the media reaches our man, he will repeat this habit enough that soon watching porn won't seem that great anymore, and he'll look on the Internet for new ways to get excited. He may find out about a rape simulator where the player gets to be a rapist (he may even have read an article talking about how bad it is), and download it instantly. Thus, a market will have been created for this game. (btw this chain of events is partially derived from personal experience, just to make it clear I'm not BSing here)

Note that I did not say anywhere in the above writing that depictions of sex is bad, because it's not the point of this thread to discuss my opinion of depiction of sex. What I have just described are merely some observations I made note of over the last few years and I wrote it down here because it is relevant to the actual topic at hand.

In short, people produce rape games because there is a market for them. The desire for such games is in no small part fulled by the society's overall obsession with depicting sexual stimulus everywhere.
How should we react? I don't want to tell anyone what they should say. I think these games are an inevitable product of our society, so I guess that my personal reaction is "Yeah, there's a lot of messed up things." Someone else may think that sex is a great thing, and the more it is depicted, the better. Thus, his opinion (and reaction) would be different.
Then there are women, whose opinions aren't rational anyway so they don't count.

I really couldn't help but comment on how disgusting your reaction was. O-M-G And to be so open about it.

lol at least he was honest.

[Jazzrat]

Originally Posted by -KarumA-

"the difference is that this game was build with the main goal being raped by another person. yes there are victims of rape in law and order but that is not in the end the reason why an episode was made, in law and order's case the goal would be to prosecute the person who did it, there is a difference between those situations. "

KarumA makes a good point here, the main issue at hand with the rape sim game was that it's being reinforced and encouraged in the game much like some other controversial games like Manhunt which rewards player on how grisly they could murder other people.

Whereelse, popular media depicts rape as an act of violence and crime.

Originally Posted by -Rio-

I actually feel those tendency is bad, but that won't be solved easily because the fact many guys here dream to rape or molest women is very true.
They want to see women tortured , more women get annoyed, more they pleased. That's not only by a Sexual desire, but also Bullying and Releasing their stress by their busy daily life in this crammed country.
So that's a complicate and heavy problem.

Other than the base human desire, I would guess it's a form of backlash by men as women start threading on what was considered men's territory in society. The desire to dominate over them might have stem from their insecurity and confusion of their role in society.

I belief much of these gender related crime might arise from the change of their role. Men could no longer rely on the dependecies of women to reaffirm their position in society and women are faced with the freedom of not financially relying on their spouse but yet, socially obligated to raise and nurture their children.

Curbing rape related material is like putting a bandage on a gunshot wound. It might stop the bleeding but it wont remove the bullet from it. Perhaps a better solution is to tackle the problem at heart by getting the people to accept a gender equal society.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by -KarumA-

the difference is that this game was build with the main goal being raped by another person. yes there are victims of rape in law and order but that is not in the end the reason why an episode was made, in law and order's case the goal would be to prosecute the person who did it, there is a difference between those situations. There is not a movie in cinema's in which the summary even is "the main character rapes this and that person" and this is what is important. I know of rape scenes in movies etc. but as long as it isn't the ultimate goal of the main character and is merely a part of the movie I can live with it, but if something is made like a movie or game in which the main plot line is to rape people then it is wrong. I don't agree with all things being banned, just to have that cleared out but in this case I think they are going too far

You realize, of course, that you are creating a very fine line in the sand. You are more or less saying that rape is okay (even if it popularizes the notion of rape) as so long as it serves a dramatic purpose (preferably for the victim) within a story. That seems like an ultimately arbitrary line of separation between what is allowable and what is not allowable. (Additionally, this is not ultimately an opinion and is focused more on what you would like to see in a show/movie/game, rather than what is allowable in the aforementioned media.)

That being said, as an aside, Law and Order: SVU cannot exist without rape, pedophilia, and murder. So, even if the criminal is often imprisoned, that still doesn't surpass the fact that the entire show is based around raping, abusing, and sometimes murdering women or children.

In the end, though, this was really a secondary point for me. The real basis for these discussions should be based around censorship; actual crime vs. possible crime; and whether video games actually create real world violence.

[izmosmolnar]

I hope no one takes that personally (and think like I'm trying to defend the sake of idiotic rape we all know), but my issue with the whole debate is, that they could ban several other quite enjoyable title by the same logic, because they have some parts of it were the consent of the woman is not obvious. I mean, would you expect rational behaviour from the protagonist who is drugged? Me neither. Still, they could label it as a rape, despite so many great stories are out there with a scene like that.
Or what about the protagonist interrogating the "evil" females by abusing her? Yeah some might consider it raping, but hell, after all the shit the reader encountered from the evil side, he is actually happy to see the upper hand finally (don't think I'm crazy, but I was satisfied to revenge finally, after being on the losing side, -and receiving the suffering end of rape- for more than 5 hours). Can one consider it raping? Yeah. Do I want to see enjoyable titles banned because of that? No.
Or what about when the reader makes the wrong choice somewhere, and the females are raping the protagonist (it's still rape). Does it encourages female readers by any chance, to rape other males in the real world? No, I seriously doubt that.
Edit: Also what about eroges and such with one character touching (or even having sex with in more extreme cases) a drunk, knocked out character. Does that counts as a rape? It happens like half of the animes/VNs I've seen/read. OK it might be an exaggerated percentage, but it doesn't happen rarely, isn't it?
It all depends how strictly we define the word rape, but as far as I know people can get accused for rape in such cases, because the "victim" is not in the state to consent.

To be honest I see a bigger problem with the more violent, vicious action games (those with intestines and blood etc.), and the inspiration it causes to the minors who are illegally playing it. And they are much more mainstream anyway. Isn't murdering people worse, than having forced sexual intercourse anyway?