2007-06-13, 22:40 | Link #21 | |
The Ironman
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Likewise, the chuunin exam is held twice a year, but is pass/fail with no numerical score. Either it will be decided that the genin is ready to become a chuunin or not. A genin who has passed the exams has no reason to re-take the chuunin exam unless they intentionally withdrew, or were not chosen to become chuunin. |
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2007-06-13, 23:06 | Link #22 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Everyone Tested by Kurenai, Asuma, and Kakashi passed... Tell me... if we were to test all 27 students individually, testing them in all areas from personal ability to team work, what are the chances that the 9 top students would have been the ones paired up into those 3 particular teams? not very likely at all... more than likely, we would probably get one or two ninjas from each group... though technically, that would be assuming they put the teams together randomly, which we know they didn't... however, we also know it isn't the case that they put the teams together based on who they THOUGHT were the best, bascially expecting teams 7-9 to all pass... the hokage was putting the teams together based on abilities and personalities that mimiced past teams; like Ino, Shika, and Cho or like how Naruto's team mimics kakashi's and Jiryia's old teams... using that method ends up being a flaw in the way the jounin test is done, in that just because those teams worked in the past, doesn't mean that all the ninjas used to mimic the test are as good as the old ninjas, OR are more deserving of becoming ninja than some of their other peers which failed Another thing that is faulty is just the fact that they limit the genins to only 9... i mean really, the 10th best student could actually be better than 9th student of last year's crop ... that 10th student would get shafted, despite being a better ninja than someone else who had already became a genin Not to mention, i don't see what the point is for them to give that false message to the students when they graduate from the acdemy... congraduatl;ations you PASSED! oh wait, we were just kidding... Quote:
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2007-06-14, 00:32 | Link #23 | ||||||
Μ ε r c ü r υ
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And, for Naruto to fail just for one jutsu, why not? In the chuunin exam, in the paper test part, regardless of what the entrants did during the exam, many people failed because they are scared to continue the exam. And, that is another pass/fail situation. For a genin, the test looks to be a weaker version of the chuunin test, understandably. And, in what exam, the examiners ask about every single thing the entrant is expected to know on the subject? They only select a few from them. In the case of Naruto, it is 1 out of 3 (or put another number here) possible topics, for me, that is logical. Especially, if in ninjutsu, those students are able to learn only 3 ninjutsu techniques through their whole life upto that point. |
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2007-06-14, 04:36 | Link #24 | ||||
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Quite frankly, Sakura, is the biggest evidence to the flaw in the jounin test... It is true she is intellgent and has some ability with genjutsu,but as the jounin test and EVERYTHING pre-timeskip proves, She was worthless as a ninja... Her intellgence and genjutsu only helped once or twice throughout the ENTIRE pre-timeskip, that's very pittiful... Her physical abilities and overall usefulness to the team were to damn weak... By all means, she should have held back and told to increase her physical abilites, or excel furthar in her other abilities more before becoming a genin... as she was, she was worthless... she didn't become useful until after Tsunade taught her medicine and increase her physical ability, and quite frankly, she should have stayed off the battle until she did that. considering how useless Sakura was, i find it hard to believe that not one of those 18 remaining students would have made a worse ninja than she was... She should have been held back till after she started training with tsunade btw... it's not nessasarily true that all of the genin take the same bell test... Kakashi has been known to fail all of his students in the past while other jounins passed there's... he is a particualry tough grader. Whne Jiriaya onced talked to naruto about having Kakashi as his teacher, jiriaya said something like "oh so you must have had the bell test"... if the test was the same for all genin, then it wouldn't have mattered who Naruto's teacher was... Kakashi seems to use the bell test because it was what yondiame used, and he learned in from jiriyia, and he learned it from Sandiame... the tests and grading process of each Jounin in turn only add to the flaws... by all means, if they really are being tested in the way you say, then they should be tested the exact same way... but while one group might pass under Asuma, they might have failed under Kakashi Quote:
Even more proof that they did not pick the top 9 is, as i said in an earlier post, the method to pick each team was based off of the kind of teams that worked in the past... Ino, Shika, and Cho were team together as a reflection of their fathers... and Sasuke, Naruto and Sasuke, were picked as reflections of Jiriyia's and Kakashi's old teams... how can they pick the top 9 and at the same time match them up is such a way... they pretty much can't, hence how it was possibly for someone as useless as Sakura to make it on to Naruto's and sasuke's team, because even though she was useless, she was similar to Rin and Tsunade; but just because she was similar did not mean she would become like either of them... instead of promoting a student that may have already shown potnetial, they promoted as student who, in an un-educated guess, MIGHT become a good ninja Quote:
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But even still, testing Ninjutsu alone does not judge accuratly if one could be a good ninja... As rock Lee proves beautiful, a ninja does not even need ninjutsu to become a strong ninja... and just as Lee uses awsome taijutsu, one could potentially exel in genjutsu to become a great ninja... there are many ways a ninja can fight and be great genin, where they slack off in one area they may exel in another... the only true way a ninja can be tested is by testing them in all of the major areas and giving them an overall evaluation... Naruto says he always failed because of the clone part of the test, had that only been one part of the test, then he could still pass by doing well in the others |
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2007-06-14, 12:43 | Link #25 | |||||||||||
Μ ε r c ü r υ
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And, I don't think it is cruel. A ninja needs to see beyond what they are told there. There are 27 students. Each year if that many students graduate, and if jounins are to accompany that students for a long time, they should have thought that the limited number of jounins wouldn't allow that many people to be grouped with the jounins. So, the academy graduation test result is only a temporary result. If they cannot see that, then they don't have any right to complain about what they are told. Quote:
And, how do you know, the other students do not use that? If the conditions require they might use. For Sakura, this was the only method of fighting at the time, and that is why she relied mostly on that. Replacement jutsu is another basic skill, and how many Konoha ninja we have seen using that? Definitely, not all. Quote:
Anyway, the general evaluation is done during the years they are in the school and during the real genin test. |
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2007-06-14, 12:56 | Link #26 |
Overlord
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: England
Age: 37
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I always thought the easiest explaination was either:
A) Naruto demanded to take the exam early several times. This would cover the failing previously while being in his own age group class. B) A system where there are three mock exams which help determine your position in class perhaps and then a real exam which is for whether you graduate or not. That way he could fail the three previous exams (being dead last in class) and still graduate with his age group. |
2007-06-14, 17:50 | Link #27 | ||||||||
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If a ninja really does have the potential to be a good ninja, then they don't need to be in the field to find the motivation they need to start advancing... sending poorly skilled ninjas out and HOPING they will make something of themselves is a good way to get them killed... Hell, one thing you can recall is from the chunin exam, is that there were adults and even one old genin... probably examples of "ninja with potential" that never got anywhere; Sakura could have ended up like them, while a student who was already showing skill, got pushed aside for her "potential"... Because of her severe lack of physical ability, Sakura of all poeple should have been held back until she either increased her physical abilties, became amazing with genjutsu, became a tactical genius, devleoped good medical jutsu or developed just about ANY skill that would have been useful... i mean think about it, If Sasuke was the only thing that really pushed her, as you say it did, then what would have happened if she ended up on a team with someone other than the person she was in love with? (does the hokage actually place personal feeligns as part of the consiteration for making teams... if so, not only does that seem extremly faultly, but it also interfers in picking the top 9 students) She would have still never found her movitvation and could have been killed... If Sakura really did have such great potential, then she could have pushed herself at home... Quote:
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it's true that the proctor doesn't test for that chunin quality everytime, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a quality that ALL chunins should have... if they don't have then they probably won't pass the later portions of the test anyway; it's kind of a, "should we fail them now, or let them fail later" kind of situation for those who do not have that quality... Really, the ONLY reason they don't test for that quality everytime is because if they did, then the students would always know the answer... however, it may not be the only essential quality a Chunin must have, so they may test something different each time... that way, genin can't just copy from before to pass easily if they failed the first time, they either get lucky, or actually come to possess that quality. Quote:
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2007-06-14, 20:57 | Link #28 |
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Slayerx what you say makes a lot of sense but it might not depend on feelings at all to Sarutobi. It might depend on finding a way through the weakness of the genins and choosing a suitable jonin to fix that. In this case Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura needed to work on teamwork. The best teacher who was all about teamwork was Kakashi.
Sakura can't be counted out like that because she always looked down on herself as a ninja. That was stopping her from becoming a true ninja not Sasuke. Of course she liked him and was distracted by him but when that happens she never forgets the mission. Also she is exceptional in taijutsu, ninjutsu, and genjutsu its just that her weakness stopped her from becoming stronger. Naruto and Sasuke overcame their weaknesses because all they needed to do was get along and thats why they were good before and now. It just took Sakura longer to escape her esteem weakness. For all we know maybe a genin passes just by knowing the basics. |
2007-06-16, 17:51 | Link #29 |
MEGA MEMBER
Fansubber
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Age: 29
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ok sasuke grauated at the firs chunnin exam in the seiries cauz rember the ref said you pass your skills are of chounnin levell and rite before sasuke chased gaara he ask him "so is this my first chuunin rank misson?" and the reff nodded yes. an rock lee , ten ten ,and neji are no part of the rookie nine cause if they were it would be called the rookie 12 plus there 13-14 year olds. naruto faild the first chuunin exam skiped the scond and 3rd to train with ebisu (I think, cuz I read this somwere) and the jiraya pops up and uses a frog techniqu type move to use his toungh to knock out ebisu for no reason cuz infact ebisu was starting to like naruto. and the the 2 1/2 -3 year time skip happend.
Quote: But, after many years, we have seen that the selection method was indeed correct. The students that are evaluated based on "whatever the method used", improved within the group they are in, accordingly. Doesn't it look like the result is a success? the point is, there are many potential Genin who could be even better then some of the current genin, but are getting screwed because of the system in place Quote: Maybe, the remaining 6 groups have more people that are more pitiful than Sakura. We don't know. And, Sakura showed she has the potential to become very good, regardless of how she performed. She didn't have the motivation, and at the end of first part, she found that. ...If she should have been held back, a good ninja like Sakura would have been thrown to the trash before even growing. Why? Because, she wouldn't be grouped with Sasuke, and she wouldn't have the motivation to make her become strong I highly doubt that there were 18 other poeple that would have been weaker than Sakura... seriously, Sakura is practically the definition of a weak ninja... potential means nothing without motivation. She should have been sent back to the academy UNTIL she found the motivation... Sending a ninja out into the field before they atleast have some decent ability is a good way to get them killed before they can make use of that potential... Potential means they MIGHT become something, not that they WILL become something If a ninja really does have the potential to be a good ninja, then they don't need to be in the field to find the motivation they need to start advancing... sending poorly skilled ninjas out and HOPING they will make something of themselves is a good way to get them killed... Hell, one thing you can recall is from the chunin exam, is that there were adults and even one old genin... probably examples of "ninja with potential" that never got anywhere; Sakura could have ended up like them, while a student who was already showing skill, got pushed aside for her "potential"... Because of her severe lack of physical ability, Sakura of all poeple should have been held back until she either increased her physical abilties, became amazing with genjutsu, became a tactical genius, devleoped good medical jutsu or developed just about ANY skill that would have been useful... i mean think about it, If Sasuke was the only thing that really pushed her, as you say it did, then what would have happened if she ended up on a team with someone other than the person she was in love with? (does the hokage actually place personal feeligns as part of the consiteration for making teams... if so, not only does that seem extremly faultly, but it also interfers in picking the top 9 students) She would have still never found her movitvation and could have been killed... If Sakura really did have such great potential, then she could have pushed herself at home... Quote: Quite possibly true, as the test evaluation differs between Sandaime's and Kakashi's. But, isn't it interesting, the first team to take the bell test is the Kakashi team (the day after the selection), assuming that is the only place for the bell test? That's assuming that the other jounins also use a bell test to test their students; based on Jiriyia's comment to Naruto, the other jounins may have completly different methods... Quote: And, that might be what happened in the past. But, do you remember what Sandaime said? Kakashi's decisions were correct (or something along those lines). That means if the ones failed under him passed by another teacher, they didn't become good ninjas. So doesn't that mean that Kakashi should be testing ALL of the 27 students and not just 3 of them? Afterall, if one teacher is better at seeing who the best students are, then shouldn't he judge them all, or atleast teach the other teachers how to judge just aswell? Quote: I think Shika's team is the only one that resembles to the past selection. Recall what Tsunade said about the genin teams after she first became hokage... She was able to see a pattern to how the Sarutobi was building the teams. It seems she was implying that the teams were reflactions of previous teams, since she was looking at Shika, Ino and Cho when she said that, a group that most resembles a past team... this is probably why Naruto's team seems so much like two teams in the past... again, it would be almost impossible to make sure the teams reflected past teams AND only use the top students; Only through the power of PLOT could it work out so perfectly everytime; in all beleivabilty, that could only happen some of the time... one has to come before the other, and in this case it sounds like former Quote: First, headband is a sign they are true ninjas. Isn't this the case in general? Think of all the ninjas you have seen? Even the outlaws carry that headband. But the 18 who fail are NOT true ninjas... True ninjas are those that actually become Genin, since they are the ones who will get serious training and are starting their careers. Those who get sent back to the academy can not be called true ninjas, afterall, they're still in school and don't go on missions... they're no different then the students who failed their final test. The outlaws who carry the headband, atleast reached the genin level... Quote: They must have that quality, but, it is not used in every test. So, the students have to know other things as well. And, bunshin jutsu seems to be another basic skill they must all know. Considering the differences between the tests, and the value each carries, those two tests can be considered as being similar, with different degree of difficulty. Again the clone jutsu has been shown to be a jutsu that a ninja does not actually need... A ninja could easily get by his whole ninja life without ever making use of that skill. The Chunin exam question however, test a quality that all chunins have instictivly... if a ninja doesn't have that quality then they would not a make a good Chunin... But if a ninja lacks the clone jutsu, they can definatly still become a good ninja it's true that the proctor doesn't test for that chunin quality everytime, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a quality that ALL chunins should have... if they don't have then they probably won't pass the later portions of the test anyway; it's kind of a, "should we fail them now, or let them fail later" kind of situation for those who do not have that quality... Really, the ONLY reason they don't test for that quality everytime is because if they did, then the students would always know the answer... however, it may not be the only essential quality a Chunin must have, so they may test something different each time... that way, genin can't just copy from before to pass easily if they failed the first time, they either get lucky, or actually come to possess that quality. Quote: And, how do you know, the other students do not use that? If the conditions require they might use. For Sakura, this was the only method of fighting at the time, and that is why she relied mostly on that. Replacement jutsu is another basic skill, and how many Konoha ninja we have seen using that? Definitely, not all. name ONE time that you have ever seen a kohona ninja use the clone jutsu other than Sakura... as for the replacment jutsu; i have already said that we have seen the justu used commonly by even those on the jounin level; we've definatly seen kakshi use it quite a few times. replacement along with transformation, are basic jutsu used commonly... clones how are not... the ONLY clones we ever see kohona ninjas use are some form of solid clone ok well you don't know to much about naruto charecters that well If you think sakura is the only on with motavation most of the charecers have one naruto wants to be hakage,sasuke wants to kill is brother, orochimaru wants to destroy the whole leaf village. so really think before you say that otherwise yea your post is pretty rite on. Last edited by Hunter; 2007-06-16 at 19:29. Reason: do not double post |
2007-06-17, 13:52 | Link #30 |
Eyebrows...
Join Date: May 2004
Age: 37
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I think the most plausible explanation is that Naruto took the test whenever it was an option, even when he wasn't ready at all. Maybe they were just humoring him. And remember, even when he graduated he still didn't actually pass the exam like everybody else. It's also possible that he started younger than the others because he had no family, and was held back a couple times.
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2007-06-17, 16:44 | Link #32 | |
Μ ε r c ü r υ
Join Date: Jun 2004
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And, taking multiple graduation exams, because of being in different years, suggest, Naruto and Sasuke should only be studying together during the last year, which is not possible considering the memories Naruto showed us. Also, without a parent and relying on support from the town, Naruto shouldn't be in a position to start earlier than he could. |
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2007-06-17, 16:59 | Link #33 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: France
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Spoiler for manga:
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2007-06-17, 17:23 | Link #34 | |
Μ ε r c ü r υ
Join Date: Jun 2004
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2007-06-18, 09:05 | Link #35 |
Golden
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: 9th Temple
Age: 45
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The way I see it Naruto begun the academy at an earlier moment than Sasuke and the others, and hence he took the graduation test more times. For example, Naruto could have begun the Academy 1 year earlier than Sasuke, and if the Test are given 2 times each Year, you could see the difference there. It could be less, as we don’t know the frequency these tests are handed out.
But, looking at the perspective from the Mangaka, I think that quote was something said at the beginning and Kishi did not gave it too much attention to it, it could fall inside of the plothole category, but not in contradiction category.
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Last edited by Rurik; 2007-06-18 at 09:17. |
2007-06-18, 09:38 | Link #36 |
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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Hmmm from the first volume the exam Naruto failed seemed very casual, much like a simple test in class. It's possible there are simply several tests a years and if you succeed you have the right to pass the real exam with a Jounin in order for him to see if you are Genin material. If you mess up your tests you are not judged worthy to waste their time.
Naruto would have simply messed up 3 tests during his year and couldn't be presented as the real exam contrary to Sasuke who scored best at every tests (or just the first one if only one is neccessary) but in the end the real exam was still at the end of the year for all the students. Basically Sazelyt's theory seems fitting to me. |
2007-06-19, 18:01 | Link #38 | |
Senior Member
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He was emotionally broken because of family issues. Everyone needs time to heal heart wounds and Sasuke's was deep. |
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2007-06-23, 16:21 | Link #39 |
Infie
Fansubber
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Texas
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Scenario 1: Naruto enters the academy before the others.
Guidelines
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So in conclusion, they all passed at the same time. Since we know Neji, Tenten, Lee, passed a year prior, having entered 2001. It ends correctly. ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() Scenario 2: Genin 9 enter academy at same time, promoted to Genin same time.. Guidelines
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In Conclusion, Naruto fails 3 times, served same amount of time as everyone else, is same age, They all genin at same time. Applying to Lee, Tenten, and Neji, Passing year prior. ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() Hope I did well ^^. Point out any mistakes :P |
2007-06-24, 02:06 | Link #40 |
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I believe those to be a good examples of how it went down.
But there could be one extra class that Team Gai went through to pass. You know, probably private class teaching to help them pass before everyone else. But they still had to attend classes with other genin to balance out the chuunin exams. |
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